Indian Air Force : News, Pics and Discussion thread

Could the mods please step in and spank these two kids. This forum is going to the dogs.

Why?

Whats so offensive about my post/s

I don't know what his problem is..


Chinawhite i will look into the validity of the article and get back to you..

Sorry CW.. couldn't find anything online.. so will have to look for more offline..
Anyways..
Saw the SuryaKirans perform live over Pune.
They were here for the 10 anniversary of their raising, and they've got a official Sqdrn: 52 'The Sharks'.. correct me if I'm wrong SS.
The commanding officer WinCo Bansal I think, says that they're probably converting to either the new Hawks(by 2008) the IAF is procuring or the IJT.
Fancy that!!
If they keep their colours and switch to the Hawks then they'll probably be indistinguishable from the Red Arrows at a distance!!


Also it was some anniversary(20th or 25th?) of the 20th Sqdrn. 'Lightnings', so all in all a big day(27th May) for AFB Lohegaon Pune.

Pictures SS?

[edit on 31-5-2006 by Daedalus3]

There have been lots of articles on the MKI case now, so no need to find the article if its going to be a burden.

This article i found the most interesting

India to swap 18 Sukhois for new versions

MOSCOW: India will exchange 18 Sukhoi-30MK aircraft it had earlier purchased from Russia for a more sophisticated version of this long-range fighter jet, Su-30MKI.

Russia's Irkut manufacturer of Sukhoi warplanes said it planned to sign the deal next week. Under an earlier agreement, the SU-30MK planes were to be upgraded to the SU-30MKI version in India.

Irkut head Oleg Demchenko said 12 of the 18 planes were already assembled in the company's factory in Irkutsk. The remaining six would be delivered in December.

And the last paragraph states that the kits that were going to be delievered are now being delivered as a nearly complete airframe. And HAL wants all the kits eariler than expected

Well not found anything to subsstantiate those claims about Su-30's flying w/o certaqin equipment. On the other hand the bit about the bloating of the budget for home grown Su-30's may have some depth to it, but doesn't seem to be to the extent described by the above posted articles, at least it is not a case of 'doubling' in costing..

On an another note:

Saw my first Red-Blue exercise just outside the skies of Pune ,with Jaguars and
Su-30s participating.
I think it is in preparation for the President's visit which is scheduled later sometime this week. That's probably why they did it so close to the city skies.
Anyways, saw the Su's being pitted against each other in A2A and could recognise the following:

Barrel rolls, cross turns, yo-yos, scissors.. and lots of other stuff which was well.. not known to me!
The greatly touted 'cobra' and the 'mongoose' were conspicuously absent.. maybe they ain't so great in combat after all..

Then they had an airbase attack sequence with Jaguars coming in really low (100-250 ft I think) and Su's pursuing.
It was all mind blowing!!


Almost ran home to get me camcorder out, but was to mesmerised to move and too scared that I'd miss something..
Whole thing lasted 30 mts or so..
Hope I get to see it again when the Presi comes visiting

Cost overruns on indigenous Su-30
by Girja Shankar Kaura

The licensed production of multi-role Sukhoi-30MKI fighters in the country is running into huge cost overruns, and some of them in the latest batch of imports are flying without some advanced, critical, airborne systems. The report of the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) placed in Parliament, while pointing this out, has noted that the indigenous manufacture of the Russian frontline fighters is actually working out to be more expensive than its import.

Three critical airborne systems of the fighters — electronic warfare system, reconnaissance system and the direction finding, modular radar — have not been integrated with the latest batch of aircraft delivered by the Russians, under the November 1996 contract, the report said.

Rapping the Government for huge cost escalation risks in the project, the CAG said the total cost of 140 aircraft projected by the Defence ministry in 2000 was Rs 22,122.78 crores at the 2000 price level, while in a detailed project report prepared by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in July 2005, the amount shown was Rs 39,224.9 crores, almost a hundred per cent increase.

www.tribuneindia.com...

The last paragraph

[edit on 4-6-2006 by chinawhite]

Well articles are articles..
You can't refute them unless you pull more articles contesting the data..
And I don't have those..
Anyways the Tribune(or was it the Outlook) puts it at approx 40000 crores for 140 a/c which comes to around 60 million USD per a/c. That's an expensive bill whichever way you look at it.
Irrespective of the fact that these aircraft are not the same as what the Russians would've supplied, taking into consideration major Cockpit refittings, avionics, IR pods, and maybe even reconfiguring hardpoints for firing missiles of non-russian origin.Reconfiguring for French ones maybe easy but Indian ones will require a lot of input, financial of course..
A figure of around 45-55 million per a/c was what I gathered from homegrown sources.

This is as opposed to the 40 Su30MKIs bought at USD 1.8 billion from Russia, which comes to about 45 million USD per a/c.
The plain Su-30MK is supposed to be at around 35 to 40 million USD per piece.

Got all figures from various sources offline and online

So I don't get how it would've been excessively cheaper to get the a/c from Russia itself. Not only would it be detrimental to the Indian aircraft industry, but it would be plain stupid. No Indian/Israeli/French mix n' match, no jobs, no learning curve, no expertise.. no nothing.. all for saving 5 to 10 million dollars per aircraft which would amount to a sum total of around 1 billion dollars.
Might've as well bought the MKK type a/c then

The Indian media sometimes .. sigh.. its a democracy!

Daedalus3,

It has nothing to do with cheaper russian planes, it says that HAL promised this figure for the job now its taken twice that amount. The article merely points out that the indians went for this self-production route because it was suppose to be cheaper than buying the planes directly from russia and fitting the planes in india.

But it ended costing them more than what was intended.

Nothing about russian planes but HAL overruns

Course it was about stuff more expensive than Russian originals!

Originally posted by chinawhite
Indian Fighter Copies Costlier Than Russian Originals

A federal watchdog May 19 blasted Indian military plane-makers for spending more on copying Russian-made Sukhoi fighter jets than it would cost to buy them.

Some of the copied Sukhoi-30MKI interceptors are also flying without critical airborne systems, the Controller-Auditor General (CAG) said in a hard-hitting report about India’s military hardware manufacturers.

Moscow allowed New Delhi to locally build Sukhois in the late 1990s as part of a bilateral pact to save India using up foreign exchange reserves.

DefenseNews.com

Orville Prins, vice-president Business Development, India, said Lockheed Martin was also interested in offering F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the patriot advanced capability (PAC-3) defence missile system and C-130J-30 Hercules helicopters. Having recently expanded its office in New Delhi, it is also planning to jump into the civilian sector as well, including the border security, border surveillance, airport traffic management, postal department, census and aerospace programme of India.

Lockheed has either already entered into a dialogue with private and public sector companies or has initiated exploratory round of talks with them. Among the prominent companies it is having talks in this regard are the Tatas, Reliance, Infosys in the private sector and the Hindu Aeronautics Limited and Bharat Electricals Ltd in the public sector.

While Lockheed would bring expertise, intellectual capital and rapid growth of engineering talent, the low-cost structure would bring a potential blend of capabilities, he added. As a result of the tie up, Indian companies could have export capabilities. Besides entering into a long term partnership with Indian companies with regard to joint production, Lockheed is interested in entering into a R&D (Research and Development) relationship with them. It has been talking to a number of companies in this regard for the past one year now.

Full Article

F-35 ? Is it even possible ?

This one is funny :

India has asked Russia's Mig aircraft corporation to send a request for proposal for the acquisition of 126 fighters, said Air Force chief SP Tyagi. Tyagi, who watched a demonstration flight of the Mig-35 fighter at a Russian air force base near Moscow, termed the demonstration as "brilliant."

He also clarified that the IAF was looking for an aircraft "to win wars" and not for "impressive demonstrations".

According to earlier reports, Russia's Mig-35 would be facing a tough challenge from the battle-proven US F-16 and F-18. The air chief said that any decision would be taken after studying the merits of a fighter offered to India "at great depth".

He also declared that all the 126 fighters for the IAF would be purchased from a "single vendor."

Link
So the split deal concept is now binned. Now i am also surprised that the article only speaks of RFP's being issued to Mig, while being silent on other MRCA bidders. Now i am begining to doubt if to MoD will even bother sending RFP's to the likes of unlikely winners like Gripen, F-16, Eurofighter ?

[edit on 5/6/06 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by chinawhite
it says that HAL promised this figure for the job now its taken twice that amount. The article merely points out that the indians went for this self-production route because it was suppose to be cheaper than buying the planes directly from russia and fitting the planes in india.

No surprise at all, really.

HAL and its cohorts had initially (as usual) given out some insane estimates, and as usual they are unable to match up to it.

The original estimate for the HAL made Su-30 MKI's $22.5 million a unit , as stated by the then HAL chairman, Nalini Ranjan Mohanty ( link).

This was as outrageous as the original estimate to make the LCA Tajas @ 8 million per unit.

Its no surprise that the estimate for the MKI has been exceeded massively. These IMHO are gimmicks to secure funding for these projects. Hopefully HAL will learn to give out more realistic estimates in the future.

India-Malaysia Sukhoi training pact

Malaysian Deputy Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak told journalists covering his week-long visit to India that Malaysia would hold discussions with India on the possibility of training for its Sukhoi pilots and cooperating on maintenance of aircraft as well as spare parts.

He will visit the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) plant in Nasik where HAL assembles it Su-30s.

Link

Mig-21, Mig-27 enginese now used for power generation!

...an Indo-Russian company has come up with a strikingly new method for generating power. Shocking though it may sound, but the Ozhar based Indo-Russian Aviation Limited (IRAL) has started exploiting used fighter aircraft engines to produce power.

IRAL’s prototype plant, located in Russia, uses MiG engine as a power generator. Work on a similar type of power plant, which however will use the gas turbine engine of a smaller Russian aircraft (D 049), is expected to begin this July. This 2 MW plant will be built at Korwa in Amethi and will supply power to the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s (HAL) Korwa unit.

So what made IRAL come up with such a radical approach to power generation? Rajesh Bharati, CEO of IRAL, says, “We wanted to utilise the used engines of fighter aircrafts at HAL. Suddenly, the Russians showed interest and came up with this concept.” Like the fighter aircrafts themselves, the MiG engines are a favourite with IRAL officials. “They are formidable sources of power, says Bharati. “A single MiG 21 engine can generate around 13 MW of power while a MiG 27 engine can produce 25 MW.”

Full Article >>

Hopefully retired aircraft engines are being referred to instead of new ones.

General director of the Salyut Moscow Machine Building Production Plant Yury Eliseev has announced at the Farnborough Airshow in Great Britain that a new engine will be used in modernized MiG 27 fighter bombers of the Indian Air Force. The new engine, the AL-31F, will be 200 kg. lighter than the R-29B-300 used previously, and have one metric ton more propulsion (12,300 kg./sec.) than its predecessor. It will also use 15 percent less fuel.

The Indian Air Force has 150 Mi G27 Bahadur models and will modernize 60 of them. General reconstruction will be carried out at the same time, with replacement of onboard equipment that will expand their abilities.

The modernization of the MiG 27 and its predecessor the MiG 23BN will bring in at least $1 billion to the Russian military industrial complex in the course of the next 10-12 years.

www.kommersant.com...
The Sukhoi's engine into the Mig-27!!! Shocking to say the least.


[edit on 22/7/06 by Stealth Spy]

They're really trying to stretch the MiG 23/27. Really perplexing..
Probably that's the only a/c which gives the IAF a dedicated bomber character.

BrahMos missiles in the future could also be installed on the Sukhoi-30MKI combat jets of the Indian Air Force, said Sivathanu Pillai, a chief controller of research and development in the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO).

“Now, we are fitting one BrahMos in the belly (of the Su-30) to start with. With certain reinforcement of the wings, we can fit up to three,” he said.

Noting that BrahMos is the world’s only supersonic cruise missile without a competitor, he stressed on the need for retaining that competitive edge.
“Having reached this stage, it’s necessary that we keep that edge. We are definitely working on that (an upgraded version of BrahMos).”

www.mosnews.com...

3 BrahMos on the MKI would vastly enchance its anti-ship and ground attack capabilities. However, it is unclear if the MKI would be able to carry anything more than 3 BrahMos missiles in the proposed configuration. And it is also unclear if the modifications to the fuselage would affect the other capablilities of the MKI

Probably that's the only a/c which gives the IAF a dedicated bomber character.

Yeah, I think that's the idea.
The IAF needs modern, dedicated fast strikers.

A longer-ranged, quicker Mig-27 with upgraded avionics might be a fiscally sensible way to acheive that goal.

Though I have always wondered why India never bought the SU-24.
It seems like it would fill a gap in their stable.


[edit on 7/23/06 by xmotex]

Originally posted by xmotex

Yeah, I think that's the idea.
The IAF needs modern, dedicated fast strikers.

A longer-ranged, quicker Mig-27 with upgraded avionics might be a fiscally sensible way to acheive that goal.

Yes it is more fiscally sensible.
Here is some new upgrade to the Mig-27 :

Su-30 mki avionics gives MiG-27 new capabilities
The Indian Air Force’s (IAF) MiG-27 fighter aircraft will now have night attack capability after an avionics upgrade, besides superior navigation systems and an improved targetting accuracy, thanks to the success of a Bangalore- based avionics unit of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The avionics upgrade involves interfacing new Israeli systems like forward looking infra- red, headup display, video recording system and digital map generator. Besides, French equipment that includes inertial navigation system aided by global positioning systems, multi-function display and laser ranger marked target seeker with Russian systems like auto pilot, crash data recorder and armament control system. Significantly the re-usability of software and hardware that drives the core avionics computer is a spin-off. For instance, this core avionics computer has partially been used in the Jaguar aircraft and subsequently proposed for the MiG- 29. The MiG-27 avionics project itself was a spin-off from the Sukhoi- 30 MKI avionics upgrade. This drastically reduces the manhours on research and development and money saved for future avionics upgrade and can be done at a fraction of the cost. The upgraded MiG-27 enhances the IAF’s operational capability and successfully engage targets with ease. The ‘circular error of probability’ in firing/bombing is reduced due to better weapon aiming computations and increased navigational accuracy. Considering that the IAF has six MiG-27 fighter aircraft squadrons this avionics upgrade is a ‘force multiplier’ in airpower terms. For air force commanders, superior avionics means that only five MiG-27 aircraft would undertake an offensive mission rather than 10 aircraft due to higher chances of success. The MiG-27 also undertakes photo reconnaissance missions.

link

With these new upgrades along with new engines, the Mig-27 is almost a new bird.

I am hoping some Israeli and new Russian A2G weapons are added into the 27's weaponry arsenal as well.

[edit on 25/7/06 by Stealth Spy]

The MRCA just cant keep off the news, can it ? With the Mig-35 offering everything from AESA radars to 3D all aspect thrust vectoring to 6000 hrs airframe life to ..... the F-16 needed something special and exclusive to stand any chance in the MRCA tender for 126 or 200 airplanes.

And it seems like the proposed block 70 is going to be called 'NG'. Check this cool article out :

by Graham Warwick at Farnborough air show

Lockheed Martin is working to define the configuration of a "next-generation" F-16NG to meet the requirements of emerging customers, potentially including India. Final definition of the configuration is awaiting firm requirements, but is intended to combine "the best of Block 50 and Block 60, with elements from the F-22 and F-35", the Rob Weiss, vice-president business development.

Enhancements under consideration include further uprated versions of the General Electric F110 and Pratt & Whitney F100 engines and a later generation of active electronically scanned array (AESA) than the Northrop APG-80 agile-beam radar in the F-16E/F Block 60. Although all F-16s and its F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) use Northrop radars, Weiss says Lockheed is "looking more broadly" for the F-16NG, suggesting that Raytheon - which produces AESA radars for the Boeing F-15 and F/A-18E/F - has at least an opportunity to bid. As well as India, which is expected to issue a request for proposals (RFP) for 126 multi-role fighters later this year, Weiss says emerging customers include existing F-16 operators who need to recapitalise their fleets, but do not plan to buy the F-35 until later in the next decade. "The F-16NG would be a good transition to the F-35," he says.

Lockheed Martin Aeronautics president Ralph Heath says he is confident the company can tailor an aircraft for India that is sufficiently different to the Block 50/52 F-16 planned to be purchased by neighbour Pakistan to satisfy India

link

Well, in the form it is speculated here, it will surely be a worthy match for the likes of the Mig-35, Rafale, Eurofighter and the SuperHornet.

[edit on 25/7/06 by Stealth Spy]

I came across this elsewhere, but it is surely shocking and new news to me. India had ordered Viggen's from Sweden in the 1970's and the sale of the same was blocked by the US. Although the US reaction is less surprising, the very prospect of India considering the Viggen and going the distance to place orders for it is shocking and new news to me.

This document talk a bit about this US-India relationship...
Snippet:

-link to the document : www.ipcs.org...

In Aug 1977 India ordered a first batch of 20 Viggen to be used as a deep strike aircraft.

In July 1978 the US finally said they would not allow it.

[edit on 25/7/06 by Stealth Spy]