Indian Air Force : News, Pics and Discussion thread

Some more news

Rejecting HAL’s Plan, India Will Seek Foreign Helos
NEW DELHI — The Indian Air Force and Army have rejected a plan by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) to produce a medium-lift helicopter with Russia’s Kazan, saying the aircraft does not meet their requirements, and will now seek a foreign supplier, a senior Army official said.
Within five to seven years, the services want 200 all-weather, medium-lift helicopters that can handle combat search and rescue, tactical troop transport, battlefield support and airborne mine countermeasures, an Indian Defense Ministry official said.
HAL picked Kazan in June, beating out AgustaWestland, Bell Helicopter Textron, Eurocopter and Sikorsky in a competition launched in 2006.
The Army official said HAL had not consulted the service before finalizing the helicopter’s technical specifications. He said the Army has asked the Defence Ministry to float a global tender based on Army requirements.
The Defence Ministry official said the ministry will tell the services to prepare joint requirements in the next three months and will issue the tender by year’s end.
Service officials said the requirements should include:

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[edit on 1-10-2007 by Jbird]

More news

Indian-made UAV To Become A Cruise Missile
NEW DELHI — Indian and Israeli companies have teamed up to convert India’s Lakshya pilotless aircraft into a cruise missile, sources in the Indian Defence Ministry confirmed.
The proposed Lakshya cruise missile would carry a payload of 350 kilograms up to 600 kilometers, and the project is already under way. The Indian government has sanctioned $150 million for the project, sources said.
India’s Aeronautical Developmental Establishment (ADE) and Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) are now working on three prototype cruise missiles that could be reused 10 times.
IAI officials here refused to comment.
ADE, Bangalore, is India’s sole UAV development laboratory under the state’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). A senior DRDO scientist said the organization submitted the Lakshya cruise missile proposal to the government last October.
Meanwhile, IAI and ADE have chosen the TRDD 50 MT engine made by Russian company NPO Saturn to power the proposed missile. The ADE is likely to carry out lab trials of Lakshya with the engine next year. DRDO scientists said full-fledged trials of three prototypes will be conducted by next July.

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[edit on 1-10-2007 by Jbird]

ermm.. Try not to quote big chunks of articles.. just the most interesting bits and link the rest..
and try and give your own inputs as well..

thanks,

DD3

sounds like a good advice.

What do you guys think about 2017 the date of MRCA induction?????????????

That is totally out of the point. If that is the case, which seems quite likely, I wish to ask what is the point in getting MRCA, India can go for 5th gen fighter and forget about MRCA and instead of 200 Tejas she can build 400 Tejas. That would be economically wise too.

But the real question is how is InAF gonna deal with the declining strength of its squadrons???

I think India should speed up the LCA testing and its induction.

This is very serious

Originally posted by vedas

That is totally out of the point. If that is the case, which seems quite likely, I wish to ask what is the point in getting MRCA, India can go for 5th gen fighter and forget about MRCA and instead of 200 Tejas she can build 400 Tejas. That would be economically wise too.

But the real question is how is InAF gonna deal with the declining strength of its squadrons???

I think India should speed up the LCA testing and its induction.

This is very serious

The date of induction depends on the aircraft chosen and the support given.

2017 in any case is too late. for the induction to 'begin'.
The IAF should have inducted more than half the aircraft(~80 = 5 sqn) by then.

400 LCA and 5th gen fighters etc etc aren't going to happen by 2017.

The LCA will achieve IOC around 2010 and then the series production of 10-12 aircraft a year. That's a new sqn every 2 years. We would reach 200 LCA a/c(10 sqn) by 2020 if everything goes smoothly.

Now smoothly is a very tricky term. Nothing in Indian fighter aircraft development/procurement has gone smoothly very often. There are a few shining exceptions though(Su-30MKI, Jaguar, Mirage 2000).

So here's the bottom line:

The IAF cannot afford to sink below a sqn strength of 35 at any stage. Lets identify this until 2025. This has a lot of variables: Fighters being inducted, fighters being retired, and would you believe the induction of trainer a/c as well.(Hawk AJT)

Let us judge this by 5 yearly increments.

As of now we have the following figther sqn breakup:

(2007):
Su-30 MKI - 3 sqns
Mig 29 - 3 sqns
Mirage 2000 - 3 sqns
Jaguar - 5 sqns
MiG-27 - 4 sqns
MiG-21 Bison - 6 sqns
MiG-21M - 3 sqns
MiG 21FL - 3 sqns

TOTAL : 30 sqns

Now except for the last two MiG21 variants, all a/c types are meant to last uptill 2015 at least. The Bisons, upgraded MiG-27FLs and upgraded MiG 29S will be phased out between 2015 and 2020.

The MiG 21FL and the MiG 21M need to be phased out by 2010. However they are the a/c that are still being used for the last stage of supersonic fighter training. THIS (IMHO) is one of the main reasons for the 'flying coffin'
syndrome, not bad spares, old Russian equip junk etc etc..
Inexperienced rookies completing their training on Soviet Era equipment means that we haven't progressed from where we were for the last 3 decades!! This is where the Hawk AJT comes in. In order to relieve and finally put these FL and M MiG21s to eternal rest(2010-2015), we need to have sufficient AJT a/c to take their place. So HAL+BAE compulsorily HAS to produce sufficient AJTs to enable this retirement.
Once these 6 ancient MiG21 sqns can be phased out, the IAF will be a much better place for 2 reasons:

1. No more 'Flying Coffin' Syndrome.
   
2. Operational Sqns now do not have to bear the partial burden of supersonic fighter pilot training(the IAF dream if you will).
   
3. The operational sqns w/o this burden, can now concentrate on speedy conversion regimes to induct new a/c(LCA, MKI, MRCA etc). OCUs and the likes..
   

This is why the Hawk AJT induction is so very important.

In my next post I will talk about 2 other very important aspects and what we should have in sqn breakup terms in 2010 and 2015 successively.
The important aspects are speedy initial procurement of LCAs (LSPs) and speedy procurement of initial MMRCA a/c.



[edit on 1-10-2007 by Daedalus3]

I have heard that the Cabinet Committee on Security has passed the number of squadrons as 45 for the IAF and experts say that for the IAF to have dominance in south east Asia, they must have 62 squadrons. But India is shortly falling to 24 squadrons. That is almost half of already approved strength.

And any date when it comes to India is and enthusiastic estimate. If they are quoting 2017..........seeing the history, I have all the reasons to believe that it will be late than that.......although I would be happy to be wrong this time.

reply to post by Daedalus3


Has the first Hawk 132 been delivered yet? the IAF Instructors are now qualified on the type - so the AJT team are ready

www.baesystems.com...

^^ picture

www.baesystems.com...

^^ news release

Originally posted by vedas
I have heard that the Cabinet Committee on Security has passed the number of squadrons as 45 for the IAF and experts say that for the IAF to have dominance in south east Asia, they must have 62 squadrons. But India is shortly falling to 24 squadrons. That is almost half of already approved strength.

And any date when it comes to India is and enthusiastic estimate. If they are quoting 2017..........seeing the history, I have all the reasons to believe that it will be late than that.......although I would be happy to be wrong this time.

I believe the number of operational sqns is slated at an optimum of 39.5
Other figures are suggestions, visions and the likes..

Originally posted by Harlequin
reply to post by Daedalus3

 

Has the first Hawk 132 been delivered yet? the IAF Instructors are now qualified on the type - so the AJT team are ready

I believe that should happen by the end of this year.
We need 4-6 sqns worth of Hawks by 2010.
Otherwise..problems..

But with the depleting IAF fleet and the bureaucracy of MOD I just wish IAF doesn't get ripped of its kill capacity.

I thinks delays in start of induction of MRCA over 2012 will be suicidal.

Moreover Pakistan is shelling out more $$$$ than India for the purchase of arms these days. You know guys Pakistan was the leading arms purchaser in the year 2006. With this trend and with the support of China to Pakistan and with the courtesy of bloody motherf***** babus of MOD........India might be dominated by PAF. I know that is not the case.......but the bureaucrats must understand this and start moving their arses ASAP

Link for PAK being the leading arms buyer in 2006

reply to post by vedas


ehh.. nobody's understands what babus are here
So lets just lay off the explitives now?

Leading in arms purchases etc are of no consequence. Saudi Arabia is one of the highest on that list.
It doesn't count for much. Force parity is what counts. Pakistan has a lot of catching up to do. Since the late 1990s they have been a military mess.

I am glad that India is dropping off in the list of leading arms purchasers.
Its a good sign.

I will post on MRCA and LCA LSP initial induction(when I get the time! ). The sqn strength is achievable, if approached sensibly.

Hi DD3

I'm looking forward for ur post

IAF taking GoI permission to take part in Red Flag(Jan 08):

In a move that could raise the hackles of the Left parties, the Indian Air Force has sought the government's nod to take part in the world's most advanced aerial combat training exercises, ironically labelled "Red Flag", hosted by the US.

The IAF wants to take part in the exercises slated for January 2008 and has sought government's clearance, Air Force Chief Fali Homi Major said here on Friday
Source

I will post in continuation of my previous post on maintaining IAF sqn strength tomorrow!
Finally!

EADS to bid for Eurofighter for 126 MRCA deal.

I think earlier BAE was gonna do it

Source

India ready to sell Brahmos to Malasia

Source

Google Earth Satellite Pictures concerning Indian Defense Authorities.

Source

Is there anyway that certain areas can't be allowed to be pictured even by the satellites????

[edit on 5-10-2007 by vedas]

Now here is some interesting news

This concerns the topic we all are concerned about......the declining squadron strength of IAF.

IAF Chief claims that IAF will attain 39 squadron strength in next 5 years.

Means MRCA induction is gonna begin around 2012......thats a relief after that date of 2017.

Source

reply to post by Daedalus3


Ok in continuation of my previous post..

So assuming we have the supersonic trainer requirement in control by 2010 we have to start looking at the new entries.

So the scene in 2010 will be:

Su-30 MKI - 5 sqns (8th and ?th sqn at Tezpur?)
Mig 29 - 3 sqns
Mirage 2000 - 4 sqns (MK5s from Qatar?)
Jaguar - 6 sqns (a/c in production now)
MiG-27 - 4 sqns
MiG-21 Bison - 6 sqns
MiG-21M - 2 sqns
MiG 21FL - 2 sqns
MRCA - 1 sqn
Tejas - 1 sqn

TOTAL : 34 sqn

Now the key here is getting one MRCA sqn and one Tejas sqn operational by this time(2010).
The Tejas deal is ok if HAL can deliver the 20 LSP a/c that it has been contracted to build for the IAF. These 20 a/c will serve as the operational testing and evaluation sqn for the IAF..a means to iron out all the wrinkles in the induction process. Note all a/c have had to go through a gradual induction process; nobody gets jus-as-you-like-em units right off the block from day 1. Even the MKI has had a long and arduous induction program starting with Su-30Ks, MKs, MKIs and now finally MKI Mk3s..
This 20 a/c sqn will also help streamline the modifications required in the remaining LCAs to come.
So that's that about the Tejas. I'm really eager to see this 20 LSP delivery happen on time.

Now onto the MRCA. One may ask how it would be possible to induct a WHOLE sqn of MRCA jets (15-20 a/c) by 2010 when the process is still stuck at the RFP stage in late 2007!
We have to do what we did with the Jaguar induction way back in the late 70s - early 80s.
1-2 sqns of existing JAguars from the active IAF inventory were speed-ordered by India to serve in the IAF until production lines could replace that a/c. So whichever a/c wins the MRCA bid could hand say 20 a/c over from the existing fighter stock of the country of origin. These a/c can then be returned to the owner country when foreign and local production lines provide the replacement a/c.
e.g: F-16 (USAF Blk 50)
F-18 (USN E/F)
Typhoon (RAF/Luftwaffe? Tranche 1)
Gripen (Flygvapnet C Version?)
MiG 35 (VVS MiG-29S)
Rafale (Armee D'Air F1?)

Looking forward, I believe the sqn strength would remain at 34-35 sqns in which the gradual phasing out of the MiG 21s, MiG 27s and eventually MiG 29s,Mirage 2000s, Jaguars would be balanced by regular inductions of Su-30MKIs, MRCAs and LCA Tejas a/c.

However by 2025, it would be time to start inducting a 5th gen a/c which could be in the form of the PAK-FA, F-35 or MCA.. or a combination of the 3.
By 2025 the IAF should see atleast one sqn of a 5th gen a/c.

[edit on 7-10-2007 by Daedalus3]

bY 2010 Tranche 2 will be the full standard of Typhoon with Tranche 3 well on its way to IOC - with CEASER allready flown on the airframe Typhonn would be offered with the AESA set.

Originally posted by Harlequin
bY 2010 Tranche 2 will be the full standard of Typhoon with Tranche 3 well on its way to IOC - with CAESER allready flown on the airframe Typhoon would be offered with the AESA set.

Maybe.. So then They'd have enough Tranche 2 a/c (say a 15-20) to spare for the IAF? For 2-3 years?

btw, I made a typo in my previous post which is not open to editing now.
I said:

1-2 sqns of existing Jaguars from the active IAF inventory were speed-ordered by India to serve in the IAF until production lines could replace that a/c.

but I obviously meant:

"1-2 sqns of existing Jaguars from the active RAF inventory were speed-ordered by India to serve in the IAF until production lines could replace that a/c."

Just incase anyone got confused!