NEWS: Bus commuter vs. Big Brother. Papers, please!

I'm going to put this bluntly.

I beleive any law designed to prevent a crime is flat out wrong.

I do not care what that crime is or where it would have been committed.

You do not punish those who may become guilty tommorrow. You punish those who are guilty.

I simply do not understand the willingness to allow something wrong to happen simply because it counters something else that is wrong. In the end everything IS black and white, wrong or right. The gray area is only there to make us feel ok at night.

Originally posted by CogitoErgoSum1

Are you that paranoid that you really believe soon we will all have micro chips implanted and have satellites for every person so that they can monitor all Americans?

I imagine some German citizens in the 1930s said something in a similar vein. Facism rarely announces itself until you or someone you know are actually affected by it.

You do know that it’s impossible for them to monitor all 300 million of us, but there has be some type of preventative measures in place to make sure society acts accordingly.

"make sure society acts accordingly"

Acts accordingly to who's values? Act accordingly to who's standards of behavior? The situation now is such that there are so many laws and rules that it is practically impossible for many average Americans to not break some law on a regular basis, even if they aren't aware of it. I expect that with a few exceptions, most Americans do have something to hide or have a family member that does. The sad part is that most of us should not have to hide whatever it is, but the intellectual void that is religious thought in the US, has turned us into a prudish, judgemental, and hypocritical nation of followers of whoever can bellow the loudest and the longest.

Yes, it is currently impossible to monitor all of us, but I am 100% certain that if it were possible, there are those who wouldn't hesitate to try it for what they would think are the very best of reasons.

Frankly, I'm much more scared of our country's law enforcement and "security" establishment than I am of any group of terrorists, and that is a fact.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound

Frankly, I'm much more scared of our country's law enforcement and "security" establishment than I am of any group of terrorists, and that is a fact.

U and me both Ambient Sound

And Xerrog I agree completely, this is all very unecessary.

I grow endlessly tired of the hysterical claims that our loss of freedom in this country is necessary to protect us from the evil terrorists. THIS IS PROPAGANDA of the highest degree! Get a grip people and put things into perspective.

Death toll from road accidents 390 times that from terrorism: study

The body count from road accidents in developed economies is 390 times higher than the death toll in these countries from international terrorism, says a study appearing in a specialist journal, Injury Prevention. In 2001, as many people died every 26 days on American roads as died in the terrorist attacks of 9/11, it says.

Researchers led by Nick Wilson of Otago University, New Zealand, trawled through a US State Department database of deaths caused by international terrorism, and compared this with an Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development database on road crash deaths among 29 OECD countries.

The study covered two years, in 2000 and 2001.

The authors acknowledge the widespread emotional, political and economic impacts of terrorism, but they also point out the enormous difference in scale between the two death tolls.

"Policymakers need to be aware of this when allocating resources to preventing these two avoidable causes of mortality," they say.

This is not like 1930's Germany. Those citizens were poor and broken and the Workers party (NAzis) were an outlet for change for them. Don't compare my country to Nazi germany please without a little more research.

If you want to compare Riechstag as a proponet for war such as 9/11 was, run with your threories. However, Riechstag was staged, and 9/11 was not.

This is not BIg Brother going overboard, it is for our own protection. The Nazis were not giving their citizens protection, they were gving them a choice. Join us or go to the camps, simple as that. I don't see that occuring here, I see someone who basically acted like an a**h**e and did not want to give up idea to try to prove her own ideology. I would have arrested her too. Just like I am sure she has a job to do, so did these officers.

Here is another quick ananlogy, if you purcahse something with a credit card, they ask for ID. Why, to make sure it is YOU buying yhr goods. Do you not show your credit card to a clerk?why? because of fear, that is instilled by the media that EVERYONE is out to get you.

Again, I say we take a collection to send her to Texas to hang out with Momma Sheehan and her wackos. another person jsut looking for attention.

Originally posted by ImJaded
By POLICE that's fine, they can see whatever they like, I couldn't care any less and have nothing to hide but a security guard doesn't have any authority unless it pertains to the site he is securing as he has been hired by said site/facility, not the police nor the government. So yeah I do have a problem with this.

A couple of things here.

First: I believe that the security guard was supposed to provide security for the facility that she was on.

Second: Why in the hell does a public bus route pass through a Federal facility?

Third: She should have known better. There is a time and a place for everything. I am not going to argue whether or not the guard had the right to ask her for ID because I don't know all of the specifics. What I am going to say is that she should have complied, shown her ID, got the guard's name, the company he works for and the names of people who witnessed the event. Then she could have made a complaint and maybe even filed a lawsuit.

I don't have a problem with showing my ID, but when I do I also ask the person requesting my ID to show me theirs as well. I do this even with police officers. I usually have a pen and notepad with me and I make a point of writing down their information and the circumstances under which I was asked for ID. A police officer or a security guard has to show you his identification on request!
I have actually intimidated police officers by doing this. Even if you know you are in the right be cooperative and polite, gather evidence and once the issue has been resolved SUE THE BASTARDS!!. By giving them a hassle and being uncooperative you actually might be comitting a crime worse than the one you were originally stopped for.

Public buses here go onto all the military bases. A lot of students go to school off base, there being only elementary schools on base, so the public bus routes go on base for them and for other workers, etc.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Public buses here go onto all the military bases. A lot of students go to school off base, there being only elementary schools on base, so the public bus routes go on base for them and for other workers, etc.

How hard would it be to do what the Marines used to do in Jacksonville? Just pick up a Marine at the gate and show him your ID only if you are getting off on the base. Then the bus drops the Marine off when it leaves the base. The people not going on to the base are not bothered.

Originally posted by esdad71

Here is another quick ananlogy, if you purcahse something with a credit card, they ask for ID. Why, to make sure it is YOU buying yhr goods. Do you not show your credit card to a clerk?why? because of fear, that is instilled by the media that EVERYONE is out to get you.

Again, I say we take a collection to send her to Texas to hang out with Momma Sheehan and her wackos. another person jsut looking for attention.

I haven't been asked for an ID when I used my credit card to purchase car repairs yesterday......... Or when I bought a boat ticket in San Diego. In fact no one has asked me for ID in years....... But they could---
I don't know why you don't like momma Sheehan....I guess calling her and the anti-war protesters wackos is a great tool for discounting her. If you think just handing over your ID to a cop is fine for people obeying the law, then think about what would happen if YOU lost it or forgot it, or didn't have it your pocket. Would you forgive them for the minor incovenience of going downtown for a day or three?

Originally posted by accountability
I haven't been asked for an ID when I used my credit card to purchase car repairs yesterday......... Or when I bought a boat ticket in San Diego. In fact no one has asked me for ID in years....... But they could---
I don't know why you don't like momma Sheehan....I guess calling her and the anti-war protesters wackos is a great tool for discounting her. If you think just handing over your ID to a cop is fine for people obeying the law, then think about what would happen if YOU lost it or forgot it, or didn't have it your pocket. Would you forgive them for the minor incovenience of going downtown for a day or three?

Funny thing, lately I have been asked for my ID when using my credit card and I like it. I know of two people who have had their wallets stolen while in the fitness club that I belong to. By the time they realized that the wallet was missing (1 to 2 hours), thousands of dollars of charges were racked up on their cards. The club is right next to a mall.

Getting back to the main point. The Federal Government has maintained for a long time that all Federal property is a restricted area. It is in the level of restriction where they differ. With the number of possible security threats these days you would think that they would go to an internal bus system on these bases and facilities. This would allow the people entering the base to go through security before getting on the internal bus system and wouldn't bother the public bus's passengers.

As far as forgetting ID goes, I learned in the Navy (the hard way) to always have my ID on me at all times. If you are driving you are required to have your license with you. Maybe they need to start increasing the penalty for not having a license with you to wake up some people.

[edit on 3-12-2005 by JIMC5499]

I agree with the federal property also requiring ID. But the trend is for more and more liberties to be taken away from us. This supposed 'freedom' is supposed to protect us from tyranny and restrictive government. The only reason we need to sound the alarm is that the sheeple are accepting it as a matter of course. Give up your freedom for security. But it is an illusion of security- That is MY main point. I also am happy when someone asks me for my ID when I use my charge card- it just hasn't happened in years.
When I went to my son's Marine graduation last month I was asked for ID at the gate. This is acceptable. When I go to a federal installation on a bus that welcomes guests and have been going there for two weeks without hassle. Then the next day I refuse to show ID- Well, I guess I would like to go public-just to give the sheeple a little nudge in the ribs to wake them up.
I don't see why I should have to show ID on the public sideways of Phoenix Arizona just because the local cops (who are military trained) don't like my looks. Profiling has always been a problem for the police- I protest against the discrimination as well as having to show my 'papers' Illegal immigrants are not prosecuted, but a little ole lady like me could be a security risk??????? Showing your papers is a legit verbal comparison to showing your ID in that instance.

Good night and Good Luck

Originally posted by accountability
I don't see why I should have to show ID on the public sideways of Phoenix Arizona just because the local cops (who are military trained) don't like my looks. Profiling has always been a problem for the police- I protest against the discrimination as well as having to show my 'papers' Illegal immigrants are not prosecuted, but a little ole lady like me could be a security risk??????? Showing your papers is a legit verbal comparison to showing your ID in that instance.

Good night and Good Luck

While I agree with you the Supreme Court doesn't agree with us. They have upheld that you are required to identify yourself to the police. If I have to deal with the police I want it to be over with as quickly as possible. If I can avoid a hassle just by showing my ID so be it. The longer it takes the greater the chance that they are going to think up some reason to take you in. The majority of my confrontations with the police come when I am walking home after having a few beers at my club. I live just three blocks away and keep my car at home. The problem is that there are three or four bars between the club and my house. So at 1:00 on a Saturday morning there is a noticable police presence. After having those beers I am automatically wrong in the eyes of the courts so I politely and quickly comply with their requests just to get the hell out of there.