NEWS: China prepares to invade "inferior white race's" countries

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
China is going through growth rates that most major western economists say are unsustainable and if the gov't doesn't put the brakes on soon they will go into recession instead.

These are claims they have to keep making to stop themselves looking totally incompetent for not managing the same growth rates. Fact is China's bank's are mostly state owned and thus do not have the power to hurt the economy by speculation and such devious schemes. While China keeps a firm grip on their banking sector they will be able to grow at whatever rate they choose. I can show you reports of how dozens of power plants constructions projects have been halted just to make it impossible for the economy to expand any faster... That is the kind of measures the Chinese government have to take to reign in economic growth .....

Only this time it won't be something small like Thailand causing the Asian financial crisis, which the west could weather easily and the Tigers could bounce back from within 18 months.

China did not suffer much in the last financial crisis and while they continue their current policies they will not suffer in the next and wont have one of their own.

The only ones who won't be affected are the peasants in the fields. Their lives will continue as is, but the city "elite" will have real problems.

They have the currency reserves and everything else to ensure a reasonable level of stability whatever crisis they may likely face. It is after all still a state managed economy and no one should forget that.

Stellar

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
(Damn you Tom Clancy)

Tom 'communist-body-count' Clancy you mean?

Stellar

Originally posted by apc
The whole world unsustainable due to the American attack? Gee... sure sounds like you're referring to nuclear winter.

I only mentioned the american continet only. Last time i checked nuclear winter is a world wide event

Polluted as in radioactivity in the enviroment. I am under the assumtion that china puts a lining of very reactive material to enhance the radioactivty (not refering to a neutron bomb)

Sure sounds like you're implying the fallout and radioactivity from an American attack would bring about nuclear winter.

Yes i did that time.

1000 nuclear missiles headed towards china and chinas 200 or so nukes heading americas way/ allies


Next time dont jump the gun

That is the kind of measures the Chinese government have to take to reign in economic growth .....

Yes, isn't it amazing how class slavery and torture can produce a huge GDP? Let's hear it for China's new economic model! Hoo-Ray!

UN Reports Torture Widespread in China

Manfred Nowak, UN special rapporteur on torture, said police often resorted to torture in the early stages of detaining subjects as they came “under heavy pressure to produce confessions”. Techniques such as beatings and sleep deprivation by police and other security authorities focused on “breaking the will” of individuals, thus creating a “general culture of fear”, he said.

Those silly Americans with their labor unions and living wages... What idiots. In order to create a really strong economy you've got to have teeth.

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
China is going through growth rates that most major western economists say are unsustainable and if the gov't doesn't put the brakes on soon they will go into recession instead.

These are claims they have to keep making to stop themselves looking totally incompetent for not managing the same growth rates.

Please, take head from arse and learn how little of a western country's economy is directly managed by its government. Double-digit growth rates are unsustainable without natural resources. Look at Japan, they still haven't recovered from the bubble bursting. China has no steel, it's coalmines are so dangerous they will be unable to guarantee regular supply without massive systemic changes, their major hydro infrastructure programs are already drawing international criticism and they haven't even begun the work on the proposed Mekong dams yet, they just poisoned a river and had to shut a city's water supply off for five days. They are in the process of creating the world's largest city adn they don't have the infrastructure to support it, yet. Beijing is going to host the Olympics and one of the city's most urgent projects is to install flush toilets for all those western visitors. They are following the US model of over-consumption and they don't have the infrastructure or space to do it.

Just look at Athens and Mexcio for examples of what happens when you can't manage a city. Beijing is heading for LA-style transport networks because they can't get their mass-transit problems solved faster than the people can buy cars and, as far as I'm aware, they are not putting exorbitant road tax on cars, ala London, in an effort to control car ownership and use.

While China keeps a firm grip on their banking sector they will be able to grow at whatever rate they choose.

Um, no they can't. China can grow only as fast as their foreign buyers allow. Have you been watching what has happened to the world textile industry since the quotas ended? China's booming economy is focused on the overseas market, not the domestic one.

I can show you reports of how dozens of power plants constructions projects have been halted just to make it impossible for the economy to expand any faster... That is the kind of measures the Chinese government have to take to reign in economic growth .....

Which I guess is nothing like "putting the brakes on"...

Only this time it won't be something small like Thailand causing the Asian financial crisis, which the west could weather easily and the Tigers could bounce back from within 18 months.

China did not suffer much in the last financial crisis and while they continue their current policies they will not suffer in the next and wont have one of their own.

Show me where I mention China as suffering from the '97 Asian meltdown...How about naming the "Tiger" economies...Try reading, then post.

The only ones who won't be affected are the peasants in the fields. Their lives will continue as is, but the city "elite" will have real problems.

They have the currency reserves and everything else to ensure a reasonable level of stability whatever crisis they may likely face. It is after all still a state managed economy and no one should forget that.

Yes, a state-managed economy that allows huge amounts of free-enterprise within its special-economic-zones.

You own a garment factory in such a zone. You're raking in foreign currency. Suddenly you have massive and regular brownouts. You can't produce. You have to buy generators. And the deisel for them. But you can't charge your customers extra, the Gap won't pay. In the meantime the brownouts have cost you orders, you can't get clothes made, let alone on the boat. Now you're already falling behind the eight ball. And you're not the only one.

How are you doing now, Mr city elite?

Or, more importantly, how are your workers doing?

Say, wasn't the USSR a state-managed economy?

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Please, take head from arse and learn how little of a western country's economy is directly managed by its government.

So why insult me when i just state the facts? So you basically admit that state run economies can grow faster and that that is the problem in the rest of the world what? Do clarify as you seem to contradict yourself.

Double-digit growth rates are unsustainable without natural resources.

And China does not have natural resources?

"China has a large and varied stock of natural resources. The variety of different landforms, soil conditions, and climate patterns offers many different kinds of opportunities for agricultural production. A tremendous range of food and industrial crops can be grown, and this makes it possible for China to keep imports to a minimum."

China>The land> natural resources

More than 160 kinds of minerals have so far been discovered, with total reserves ranking third in the world. Recoverable deposits of coal amount to 1,006.3 billion tons. Oil reserves are mainly distributed in the northwest and are also found in the northeast, the north and the sub-littoral continental shelf along the southeastern coast. Energy resources with proven reserves also include natural gas, oil shale, uranium and thorium. Ferrous metallic minerals with proven reserves include iron, manganese, vanadium and titanium, of which the deposits of iron ores are nearly 50 billion tons. All nonferrous metallic minerals that have been discovered in the world can be found in China. The country ranks among the world's top in terms of reserves of tungsten, tin, antimony, zinc, molybdenum, lead and mercury. The reserves of rare earth constitute 80 percent of the world's total, while those of antimony 40 percent. The reserves of titanium are equivalent to the combined total of other countries, and those of tungsten are quadruple the combined total elsewhere outside China.

natural resources

“China is well endowed with most of the important industrial ores, fuels, and other minerals. Only a few raw materials are not present in deposits large enough for domestic needs. Supplies of iron and coking coal, although of poor quality, are adequate. By the early to mid-1980s, China was a significant exporter of rare metals necessary for the aerospace and electronics industries. Nonetheless, China imported materials such as steel, pig iron, copper, and aluminum because of a large domestic demand and an inadequate transportation infrastructure—“

lcweb2.loc.gov...

Look at Japan, they still haven't recovered from the bubble bursting.

Yes but do you understand what that bubble was about and why it burst? It was about monetary policy; ( bad loans, high savings rates, etc) NOT resources. The infrastructure built did not dissapear either so I personally dislike the use of the word “bubble” when it leaves so much behind. You did know that the British empire was built on the back of tallysticks? Pieces of wood in other words.

China has no steel,

China steel production to remain solid, record prices to continue.

“Lennon forecast that present steel production growth in China of 27 pct year-on-year will slow.
He expects China's steel output in 2005 to be 345 mln metric tons or 30 pct of the world production of 1.129 bln tons.
He said China's output will continue to grow to 516 mln tons in 2010, or 37 pct of forecast world demand of 1.389 bln tons.
Lennon said the steel market will remain well-balanced between supply and demand factors over the next five years, with periods of over and undersupply similar to that in the Western economies between the period of 1960-1980.”

www.issb.co.uk...

it's coalmines are so dangerous they will be unable to guarantee regular supply without massive systemic changes,

China Oct Coal Exports Up For First Time In 7 Months

he government's crackdown on unsafe coal mines is also helping to shore up coal prices.
“China has suspended operations at 12,990 coal mines so far this year for failing to meet government-set safety standards, the latest data issued by the State Administration of Coal Mine Safety show. These mines are equivalent to nearly half of the country's registered coal mines, in terms of number.China, the world's largest coal consumer and producer, has the highest number of coal mine accidents in the world due to poorly enforced safety standards. Last year, 6,027 miners were killed in accidents.
However, this won't lead to a drop in export volume as most of the coal meant for exports originates from major coal producers. These producers typically uphold high mine safety standards, so probably won't face the prospect of being shut by the government.China produced 1.59 billion tons of coal in the first 10 months of 2005, up 7.99% from a year earlier.”
“China is the largest producer of coal in the world. Production totaled about 1.5 billion short tons in 1995 (compared with about 1 billion short tons in the United States). China's estimated total coal resources are second only to the former Soviet Union, although proved reserves rank behind both the United States and the former Soviet Union--due mainly to a lack of exploration.”

www.eia.doe.gov...

“They will be able to keep up supply and most of the casualties happen in the rural collectives.
China is suspending production at a third of its coal mines, in an effort to reduce the huge number of fatal accidents that blight the industry. The 7,000 mines affected will need to meet national safety standards before they can reopen, state media report.
More than 3,000 miners have been killed this year alone, in fires, floods and other work-related accidents.
Analysts say the closures may be hard to enforce, as jobs and energy needs can take precedence over safety.”
news.bbc.co.uk...

So it’s not like their not attempting to solve the problem. People will risk their lives if it’s the only way to make a living and there is very little you can do to discourage that imo.

their major hydro infrastructure programs are already drawing international criticism and they haven't even begun the work on the proposed Mekong dams yet, they just poisoned a river and had to shut a city's water supply off for five days.

And their not drawing international criticism for everything anyways? These things tends to happen to the best of us wich you seem to be forgetting here. Have you checked the water quality in north America recently?

They are in the process of creating the world's largest city adn they don't have the infrastructure to support it, yet. Beijing is going to host the Olympics and one of the city's most urgent projects is to install flush toilets for all those western visitors. They are following the US model of over-consumption and they don't have the infrastructure or space to do it.

It is not a question of infrastructure as much as it is one of culture and policy. The difference is that that China can afford what they are doing when it comes to consumption and the “toilet” issue is certainly not the most urgent. It really shows your intent with this thread.

Beijing is heading for LA-style transport networks because they can't get their mass-transit problems solved faster than the people can buy cars and, as far as I'm aware, they are not putting exorbitant road tax on cars, ala London, in an effort to control car ownership and use.

Wich probably means they have better ideas than to tax their citizens extra for government incompetence. Good start if you ask me.

Um, no they can't. China can grow only as fast as their foreign buyers allow.

That depends on how many other manufacturers they can undercut with better prices or terms. You miss the point completely by assuming that foreign currency is what drives the Chinese growth. It is in fact the control of their own currency that enable’s all of this and that was my point.

Have you been watching what has happened to the world textile industry since the quotas ended? China's booming economy is focused on the overseas market, not the domestic one.

It is focused on making money and it will sell to whoever will pay most or agree to best trade relations in general. China’s domestic growth is also growing massively and that is the point of the massive manufacturing growth. They are using foreign demand to create a manufacturing base for their own future domestic needs.

Which I guess is nothing like "putting the brakes on"...

Depends on your intent. You seem to have been suggesting that they can not manage further growth but that is not the case. I stated one of the reason but I forgot to mention their other claims….

“China ordered a halt to construction at 32 power projects because they failed to comply with environmental and land-use regulations and to avoid overinvestment in generating capacity.”

www.thestandard.com.hk...

Show me where I mention China as suffering from the '97 Asian meltdown...How about naming the "Tiger" economies...Try reading, then post.

I guess I assumed as we were talking about China you thought China would cause the next one. Either way as you say they are mostly isolated from and will not likely have one themselves.

Yes, a state-managed economy that allows huge amounts of free-enterprise within its special-economic-zones.

Wich is not really relevant considering who controls the flow of money in China. Free enterprise is not a problem as long as the state controls the flow of money into the economy. That control is far far harder in the west and the reason for the economic cycles. Once you bring the currency under control as in China you are nowhere near as exposed.

But you can't charge your customers extra, the Gap won't pay. In the meantime the brownouts have cost you orders, you can't get clothes made, let alone on the boat. Now you're already falling behind the eight ball. And you're not the only one.

How are you doing now, Mr city elite?

Still doing far better than I ever did before thank you very much.

Or, more importantly, how are your workers doing?

Chinese workers are doing better every year as their wages increases and their purchasing power grows. The average income of workers increased eight-fold since 1978 by 2003.

Helpi ng the poor become richer

China Builds Malls on Gigantic Scale

China since 1990: facts and figures tell of rising prosperity.

Say, wasn't the USSR a state-managed economy?

Yes it was and that is why it could manage what it did for so long. It would have kept on doing so for a very long time had the Kremlin decided to shoot protestors instead of just not. Russia was abit too integrated to be fall apart the way it did and oviously things went badly after that. That will not be happening in China imo.

In the future I suggest you do far more reading on any given topic before disregarding statements I make. It will save you a great deal of time to just take my word for it but if you must you can always ask for links, or do the research yourself, instead of being plain insulting.

Thanks.

Stellar

[edit on 4-12-2005 by StellarX]

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Say, wasn't the USSR a state-managed economy?

Yes it was and that is why it could manage what it did for so long. It would have kept on doing so for a very long time had the Kremlin decided to shoot protestors instead of just not.

Everything else you say may be serious, but I'm going to have to take time out to laugh at this one...

In the future I suggest you do far more reading on any given topic before disregarding statements I make. It will save you a great deal of time to just take my word for it but if you must you can always ask for links, or do the research yourself, instead of being plain insulting.

The insult was probably a bit much, I'll admit, but everything else applies to all, including you. Why should I take your word for it? Where did you earn your commerce or economics degree? What position do you hold in an international investment firm or state bank or the US Department of Treasury?

Originally posted by StellarX
So you basically admit that state run economies can grow faster and that that is the problem in the rest of the world what? Do clarify as you seem to contradict yourself.

Ahh, Grasshopper...

I admit nothing. You said the governments make up lies to fool their own people and excuse their performance. I said go find out how little direct control those governments have and thus you will learn why they have no need to lie.

Double-digit growth rates are unsustainable without natural resources.

And China does not have natural resources?

"China has a large and varied stock of natural resources...

China>The land> natural resources

More than 160 kinds of minerals have so far been discovered,...

natural resources

“China is well endowed with most of the important industrial ores, fuels, and other minerals...

lcweb2.loc.gov...

Then why did China sign a $25 billion deal for Australian natural gas if it has no need? Why is it a massive importer of fuel/energy? Why is it driving the world price of steel up if it is able to meet demand from domestic supply? Not to mention causing a shortage of construction steel (reo rod and I-beams) in other parts of Asia.

Look at Japan, they still haven't recovered from the bubble bursting.

Yes but do you understand what that bubble was about and why it burst? It was about monetary policy; ( bad loans, high savings rates, etc) NOT resources. The infrastructure built did not dissapear either so I personally dislike the use of the word “bubble” when it leaves so much behind. You did know that the British empire was built on the back of tallysticks? Pieces of wood in other words.

Bubble probably is the wrong term, I'll admit, but economists aren't known for their dexterity of language...

Hmm. There's been no criticism of China's artifically pegging the Yuan to the US$, has there?...

You did know you have no clue about the British Empire? It was built first on conquest and colonisation and then on taxes and the net import into Britain of the raw materials found throughout the Empire, which were then, after processing, re-exported. Materials such as Indian cotton, silk and salt. Coffee (even 'though they drink tea) and cotton from the Carribean, wheat and wool from Australia, copper from Australia...

Next you'll be saying a delayed shipment of 200 telegraph poles started WW2...

it's coalmines are so dangerous they will be unable to guarantee regular supply without massive systemic changes,

China Oct Coal Exports Up For First Time In 7 Months

he government's crackdown on unsafe coal mines is also helping to shore up coal prices.
“China has suspended operations at 12,990 coal mines so far this year for failing to meet government-set safety standards, the latest data issued by the State Administration of Coal Mine Safety show. These mines are equivalent to nearly half of the country's registered coal mines, in terms of number.China, the world's largest coal consumer and producer, has the highest number of coal mine accidents in the world due to poorly enforced safety standards. Last year, 6,027 miners were killed in accidents.
However, this won't lead to a drop in export volume as most of the coal meant for exports originates from major coal producers. These producers typically uphold high mine safety standards, so probably won't face the prospect of being shut by the government.China produced 1.59 billion tons of coal in the first 10 months of 2005, up 7.99% from a year earlier.”
“China is the largest producer of coal in the world. Production totaled about 1.5 billion short tons in 1995 (compared with about 1 billion short tons in the United States). China's estimated total coal resources are second only to the former Soviet Union, although proved reserves rank behind both the United States and the former Soviet Union--due mainly to a lack of exploration.”

www.eia.doe.gov...

“They will be able to keep up supply and most of the casualties happen in the rural collectives.
China is suspending production at a third of its coal mines, in an effort to reduce the huge number of fatal accidents that blight the industry. The 7,000 mines affected will need to meet national safety standards before they can reopen, state media report.
More than 3,000 miners have been killed this year alone, in fires, floods and other work-related accidents.
Analysts say the closures may be hard to enforce, as jobs and energy needs can take precedence over safety.”
news.bbc.co.uk...

So it’s not like their not attempting to solve the problem. People will risk their lives if it’s the only way to make a living and there is very little you can do to discourage that imo.

There's a hell of a lot you can do to discourage it, just look at the US, Europe or Australia...

And attempts mean nothing, results mean everything.

"China has the worst mine safety record in the world.

Chinese officials say some 6,000 miners died last year, but non-government groups say the true figure is far higher."

news.bbc.co.uk...

their major hydro infrastructure programs are already drawing international criticism and they haven't even begun the work on the proposed Mekong dams yet, they just poisoned a river and had to shut a city's water supply off for five days.

And their not drawing international criticism for everything anyways? These things tends to happen to the best of us wich you seem to be forgetting here. Have you checked the water quality in north America recently?

I'm talking about criticism from the other nations of the Mekong basin ie their neighbours.

Not having been to North America in my life I haven't had the opportunity. But in China, as in most dictatorial nations, Machiavelli is the god of development: "The end outweighs the means." Industrial accidents are far more prevalent in China than the west because enforcement of regulations, where they exist, is so lax.

It's possible that the high numbers of accidents is nothing more than a product of the massive numbers (1.3-1.6 billion) of Chinese citizens, but I don't believe so. If numbers of accidents were rated against the number of industrial workers, then we'd see a far higher percentage than in the west.

Yes, the west has industrial accidents, in many western nations there is also a compensation scheme (in Australia its called Workcover). In the US, where there isn't one, the courts come into play with a thing called "damages". China does not have a history of punishing companies that put profit ahead of lives. The US does, see "Ford Pinto" or "Erin Brokovich" for examples. However, there have been some MAJOR lapses, such as Union Carbide and Bophal, India. The best examples of a company having to pay in Australia centre around James Hardie Industries and CSR's Wittenoom mine.

They are in the process of creating the world's largest city adn they don't have the infrastructure to support it, yet.

It is not a question of infrastructure as much as it is one of culture and policy. The difference is that that China can afford what they are doing when it comes to consumption and the “toilet” issue is certainly not the most urgent. It really shows your intent with this thread.

No, they can't. They're building cities of concrete and glass towers and they don't have the companies to fill them, it's the most undersubscribed office space in the world. If you go back and look at the General's "comments" he admits they can't afford the consumption, they have no trees and no green spaces, that's part of his reasoning for invading the US. Besides which, they can't power their consumption, if they don't have the electricity then clearly they can't afford the consumption. And the toilets is a cultural issue, admittedly, but if you want western visitors, and China is desparate for them, then you'd better cater to them. It is a symptom of Chinese management that even 'though their best and brightest have studied overseas, they couldn't bring such simple lessons back with them. Given the exponential increase in western visitors, why were the city authorties not making western amenities a part of their infrastructure programs?

Beijing is heading for LA-style transport networks because they can't get their mass-transit problems solved faster than the people can buy cars and, as far as I'm aware, they are not putting exorbitant road tax on cars, ala London, in an effort to control car ownership and use.

Wich probably means they have better ideas than to tax their citizens extra for government incompetence. Good start if you ask me.

Which means they have neither vision nor clue about how to manage congestion or what congestion will do to their city. Your comments also show that you have no clue about said issue.

Have you been watching what has happened to the world textile industry since the quotas ended? China's booming economy is focused on the overseas market, not the domestic one.

It is focused on making money and it will sell to whoever will pay most

Oh, boy, allow me to explain how the world textile industry works...The Gap and Marks and Sparks buy from whoever will sell cheapest. That means China must be the one willing to sell cheapest. THAT means they are selling not to the person who will pay the most, but the person who will pay the least. They are dumping textiles into Europe at the moment, selling for less than it costs them to produce. As I said, "Have you been watching what has happened to the world textile industry since the quotas ended?"

The answer is "No."

Show me where I mention China as suffering from the '97 Asian meltdown...How about naming the "Tiger" economies...Try reading, then post.

I guess I assumed as we were talking about China you thought China would cause the next one. Either way as you say they are mostly isolated from and will not likely have one themselves.

As you say, I say nothing of the kind.

But you can't charge your customers extra, the Gap won't pay. In the meantime the brownouts have cost you orders, you can't get clothes made, let alone on the boat. Now you're already falling behind the eight ball. And you're not the only one.

How are you doing now, Mr city elite?

Still doing far better than I ever did before thank you very much.

Really, even 'though your buyers are already moving elsewhere? Western garment sellers (such as the much-mentioned Gap) give a factory, on average, one bad/late delivery before they shift to a new supplier. It's a buyer's market.

Or, more importantly, how are your workers doing?

Chinese workers are doing better every year as their wages increases and their purchasing power grows. The average income of workers increased eight-fold since 1978 by 2003.

Really, how are you going to pay them these fantastic wages you quote if you don't have orders or customers? Besides which, it would be almost impossible for the Chinese (textile) factory workers to do worse each year. From the bottom up is the only direction you can go.

edit:sp

[edit on 5-12-2005 by HowlrunnerIV]

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Then why did China sign a $25 billion deal for Australian natural gas if it has no need? Why is it a massive importer of fuel/energy? Why is it driving the world price of steel up.

Chinas has the resources but there in the west. China still is not developed in the western regions where their a massive untapped resources with only a fraction that has been discovered. Ever heard the chinese goverment say "go west" ?.

China is the worlds largest steel maker. beating the USA germany and japan combined. No wonder china is running out of steel.

With construction and manufacturing booming as the economy grows at a rate of 9.5 percent per year, China's appetite for steel seems insatiable: It consumed 258 million tons last year, a third of all steel used worldwide. Demand this year is expected to reach 310 million tons or more.

Source

Only since 1993 has china been a oil importer. The reason for this is the huge increase in demand(20~50% a year). Before that chian use to export oil to other countries. If china tightens here growth rate(which she is doing). We will see slow down in inflation and the prices leveling up to more sustainable rates.

Chinese officials say some 6,000 miners died last year, but non-government groups say the true figure is far higher."

The only reason why they say its higher is becauses they dont have any proof or facts only saying that to discredit the government.

What is the true figures? miners dont have families to? People can disappear?

And the toilets is a cultural issue, admittedly, but if you want western visitors, and China is desparate for them

You should look who are the biggest tourist to china. Westerners are not prized becauses they are actually cheaper than most people. They like to bargin around.

The most forigen china gets are from macua hong kong and taiwan. The people not actually for china were only 11.7million in 2003 and the majority were japanese korean malaysian and singapore

Really, how are you going to pay them these fantastic wages you quote if you don't have orders or customers? Besides which, it would be almost impossible for the Chinese (textile) factory workers to do worse each year.

How much textiles workers does china have?. Jesus you make them sound like the backbone of chinas workforce.

Exports of textiles totaled 22.910billion US

-------

If numbers of accidents were rated against the number of industrial workers, then we'd see a far higher percentage than in the west. James Hardie Industries

It would be difficult to find out who has a job and who doesn't. china has large number of migrant workers. Anyway i wouldn't it to be a large percentage more.

the James hardie asbestos case took way to long. They even tried to move to the netherlands

Originally posted by chinawhite
Chinas has the resources but there in the west. Ever heard the chinese goverment say "go west" ?.

No, I haven't. That's just a repeat from the US in the 1850s. I'll take your word for it.

China is the worlds largest steel maker. beating the USA germany and japan combined. No wonder china is running out of steel.

Chinawhite, that makes absolutely no sense.

Only since 1993 has china been a oil importer. The reason for this is the huge increase in demand(20~50% a year). If china tightens here growth rate(which she is doing). We will see slow down in inflation and the prices leveling up to more sustainable rates.

Which is my whole point, China has to slow its growth rate, it cannot sustain last year's figures.

Chinese officials say some 6,000 miners died last year, but non-government groups say the true figure is far higher."

The only reason why they say its higher is becauses they dont have any proof or facts only saying that to discredit the government.

What is the true figures? miners dont have families to? People can disappear?

I really don't know what you mean by that last bit.

As for discrediting the government. This is the government that covered up and lied about SARS. What's to discredit? They've already been proven liars.

And the toilets is a cultural issue, admittedly, but if you want western visitors, and China is desparate for them

You should look who are the biggest tourist to china.

The most forigen china gets are from macua hong kong and taiwan. The people not actually for china were only 11.7million in 2003 and the majority were japanese korean malaysian and singapore

We'll ignore that little slip of the tongue regarding Taiwan there and move on to the next one. Singapore may be in SEAsia and it's people may look Asian but in attitude they are western, including their demand for amenities. They don't all use squat toilets. In fact my memory of Changi is that sit-down dunnies outnumbered the squats.

If numbers of accidents were rated against the number of industrial workers, then we'd see a far higher percentage than in the west. James Hardie Industries

It would be difficult to find out who has a job and who doesn't. china has large number of migrant workers. Anyway i wouldn't it to be a large percentage more.

the James hardie asbestos case took way to long. They even tried to move to the netherlands

Yes, and they still have to pay up. In China nothing happens.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
No, I haven't. That's just a repeat from the US in the 1850s. I'll take your word for it.

Actually its quite different. The western states of china have people there but its not developed. They are just moving their investment west.

When deng xiao ping launched reforms in 1979 he created SEZ's(some later on) to attract investment to the area and build up the surrounding areas. When the east is developed then we will move west. In chongqing chians largest city in the interior is now reciving the same amount of investment shanghai has recived in the last 10 years to make it the shanghai of the west. Thats why building the three gorges damn was nessary to move trade down and up stream.

China is building a domestic base for consumption. Still exporting to the west but also selling more in the domestic market. Chians Per capita GDP has reached $1000 and is projected to reach $3000 in 2020. By that year chinese domestic demand might outstrip demand. Less reliance on the western countries and having them rely on china more becauses it will be the worlds largest consumer

Chinawhite, that makes absolutely no sense.

When i said maker i meant consumer. Out consumering the other countries combined. The only reason china has to import steel is to meet the demand of 1 third the whole world comsumtion. China has the resoures but not enough factories and infracture to utilize it.

If china slows her growth the largest steel makers in the world would be floding the world market with cheap good quailty steel.

Which is my whole point, China has to slow its growth rate, it cannot sustain last year's figures.

It is slowing growth. Its stopping bank loans for extra invsetment and not giving aporval for new projects. China is aiming for a 5-7% growth rate for the next to decades. chian is not trying to show herself as a unstable market but a market which is evenly growning and a large customer base

As for discrediting the government. This is the government that covered up and lied about SARS. What's to discredit? They've already been proven liars.

Wow SARS biggest hype on TV ever. So much for the killer disease. What happen only 6-12months after? What were the infection to death ratios?

Why would china tell the world when it was under control of SARS?

We'll ignore that little slip of the tongue regarding Taiwan

Not direct flights of tourist from taiwan but taiwan>hong kong>china. end result is visiting china

Singapore may be in SEAsia and it's people may look Asian but in attitude they are western, including their demand for amenities. They don't all use squat toilets. In fact my memory of Changi is that sit-down dunnies outnumbered the squats.

Im not talking about toilets. But your reference to the much needed western toilets chian will need to build to cater for the west. Only the older type of places have squat toilets. When i was in fuzhou there toilets were all sit down. I dont even get why they have squat type of toilets.

Yes, and they still have to pay up. In China nothing happens.

Because australia is such a small country. If we compare all the claims the chinese government/compaines pay to injured chinese workers it would out number australian substanically.

James hardie has to pay a multi-billion dollar compenstaion for how much workers?. All of them and their children are set for life

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Ahh, Grasshopper...
I admit nothing. You said the governments make up lies to fool their own people and excuse their performance. I said go find out how little direct control those governments have and thus you will learn why they have no need to lie.

Wich is avoiding the issue at hand imo. You probably just have no idea that central bankers in the US and elsewhere have at least as much control over the economy as does the Chinese state has over theirs. The difference is China controls it's own currency but this is not so for the American government and the USD. So both are controlled but i must admit i like the China native control idea far more.

Double-digit growth rates are unsustainable without natural resources.

And China does not have natural resources?

Then why did China sign a $25 billion deal for Australian natural gas if it has no need? Why is it a massive importer of fuel/energy?

For the same reason all other natural resource rich countries imports many resources they have. You can use it to establish political and economic ties and the cost of creating your own extraction infrastructure might only deliver returns over a extended frame of time. As you might have noticed their transportation infrastructe can only handle so much and imports arrive in ports close to local industry most of the time. There are dozens of factors i can think of but it does not change the fact that you just did not know and decided to insult me. That is no way to build a reputation or gain respect.

Why is it driving the world price of steel up if it is able to meet demand from domestic supply? Not to mention causing a shortage of construction steel (reo rod and I-beams) in other parts of Asia.

Because the rest of the world also needs steel and China is using up it's own production however rapidly they expand their own production? If you did not notice China is not the only expanding economy in the world and not just the Chinese use steel in manufacturing. Once again you were simply dead wrong and are now apparently seeking to obscure that fact. All you are doing is insulting me again imagining i would not notice the deception.

Bubble probably is the wrong term, I'll admit, but economists aren't known for their dexterity of language...

Oh they are past maters when it comes to making their deceptions and thievery nearly invisible.

Hmm. There's been no criticism of China's artifically pegging the Yuan to the US$, has there?...

You must not have been watching TV? It's all all these economist talk about instead of telling everyone where the real problem with Western economies lies.

You did know you have no clue about the British Empire?

Oh i am very sure your ignorence on this topic will far exceed my own.

It was built first on conquest and colonisation and then on taxes and the net import into Britain of the raw materials found throughout the Empire, which were then, after processing, re-exported.

Wich is meaningless as the weopons to take over the world does not come from nowhere. Where do you think these weapons came from and how were they paid for? Do you understand that the rest of the Western world were trying to do the same as the British and that they had to fight for all the gained? You glib answer illustrates your text book copying style here and it explains not the roots of the empire building or the preservation of it.

Materials such as Indian cotton, silk and salt. Coffee (even 'though they drink tea) and cotton from the Carribean, wheat and wool from Australia, copper from Australia...

Where did the money come from to build the vast fleets of cargo ships needed to make such an endevour possible in the first place?

Next you'll be saying a delayed shipment of 200 telegraph poles started WW2...

No i wont but i will start wondering about your sanity.

There's a hell of a lot you can do to discourage it, just look at the US, Europe or Australia...

Well these materials fetch a high price on the international market and if the US wants to manufacture everything it needs on the standards that keeps everyone alive why does it not do so? Safety expenses makes any industry less competitive apparently ( or so they claim) and if America and others are so concerned they should stop importing countries with such horrid safety records. Sadly the market driven west does not care for human lives as long as the product is delivered cheaper than their own well protected workers apparently manages.

And attempts mean nothing, results mean everything.

That is real "market-talk" and the reason for people dying with so little safety enforcement. Only thing that matters is how cheap the product is and while there are poor starving people you will always have people willing to risk their lives to stay alive.

"China has the worst mine safety record in the world.

Did you know that in the 50 years following the American Civil War the poorest workplace safety record in world history belonged to the United States? Well that was before the "recent" trouble's started in Asia but just goes to show what tends to drive economic growth

I am well aware and the articles i posted mentions this fact. I am not the one trying to obscure reality. You claimed that China did not have coal reserves enough to support it's economy wich i showed to be a patently false claim. Once again avoiding the issue might normally work for you but i can assure you it will not in this case.

I'm talking about criticism from the other nations of the Mekong basin ie their neighbours.

And the Indians and Russians ( and everyone else in the area really) does not pollute with the same gusto to expand their economies? Your trying to make them into criminals when so much of those polluting industry is Western owned. If those owners could get away with such pollution in their own countries they would have but they had to move to countries wich can not afford to refuse the business and jobs these multinations bring. Like any other developing economy the Chinese are partly caught in a trap of western making. Go look at what is happening in the rest of South East Asia and you will realise things are going far better in China than it is in countries where the West has more political and economic influence.

Not having been to North America in my life I haven't had the opportunity. But in China, as in most dictatorial nations,

I can show you dictatorial nations if you like and you may compare them to what China has. I am confident you will soon realise the scale of your, once again, uninformed assumption.

Machiavelli is the god of development: "The end outweighs the means." Industrial accidents are far more prevalent in China than the west because enforcement of regulations, where they exist, is so lax.

Wich as i have explained is not unique to China and is standard all over the world as competition rises for cheaper manufacturing practices. Corners are cut and people get hurt but when the people do not have all that many other options they will keep working whatever the dangers. If the west wants to save Chinese ( Asian workers in general) lives they could always keep their manufacturing plants in their local economies where enforcement of safety regulations can be monitored properly. Any process driven by greed will result in loves being lost sooner or later.

If numbers of accidents were rated against the number of industrial workers, then we'd see a far higher percentage than in the west.

Why speculate when you can search till you can verify the claim? Your probably right in this instance and i hope you will by now understand why it is in fact so.

Yes, the west has industrial accidents, in many western nations there is also a compensation scheme (in Australia its called Workcover). In the US, where there isn't one, the courts come into play with a thing called "damages".

China Establishes Workers Compensation Program

China is changing and will continue to do so as the workers get wealthier and demand more.

China does not have a history of punishing companies that put profit ahead of lives. The US does, see "Ford Pinto" or "Erin Brokovich" for examples.

Wich happens to be companies who were extraordinarily stupid in killing their workers and others. Government will never encourage these sort of things as it cuts in taxes and profits and thus the only thing that drives stricter safety regulations is people growing wealtheir or just refusing to work in unsafe places. Why do you think the US and much of the west still have relative poor people ( 10% in America and 10% in China wich are according to the UN living beneath any acceptable norms) willing to do dangerous work? Every country will aim to keep some part of the population poor so as to ensure that there will be people to drive down standards by being forced to do more for less with far less safety involved. That is the nature of government unless you stop it at every turn.

However, there have been some MAJOR lapses, such as Union Carbide and Bophal, India. The best examples of a company having to pay in Australia centre around James Hardie Industries and CSR's Wittenoom mine.

They get caught out but it's public exposure that kills them NOT government as you state. Government could not care less for the most part and they show it at every turn.

No, they can't. They're building cities of concrete and glass towers and they don't have the companies to fill them, it's the most undersubscribed office space in the world.

That is true ( i have heard of these massive and every empty industrial parks and office/residential space) and it may but show a few deals with international corporations that fell trough the mat. It could however show plain overinvestment in infrastructure wich imo is not a long term danger if you keep your currency under state control as the Chinese are and will continue to do.

If you go back and look at the General's "comments" he admits they can't afford the consumption, they have no trees and no green spaces, that's part of his reasoning for invading the US.

Then the general should stick to commanding and leave the economy to people who are qualified. He clearly has no idea what he is talking about. It's a poor reason to want to invade any country and you have to wonder about his sanity( or whoever is feeding him his lines) of this article is based on fact.

Besides which, they can't power their consumption, if they don't have the electricity then clearly they can't afford the consumption.

They can power it and how much electricity you bring on line is a policy decision. They clearly have the resources( as i have shown earlier) but they are apparently choosing to invest it elsewhere for whatever reason. As i understand the it recent blackouts had much to do with the heat wave and the huge number of people and offices wich can now afford air conditioning. It's probably one of those things you can not plan for statisfically and that they will deal with as fast as they can.

And the toilets is a cultural issue, admittedly, but if you want western visitors, and China is desparate for them, then you'd better cater to them.

True but if you do not know you do not know.... Sometimes the information does not get the right place to affect change as fast as it should happen for economic growth. China is not "desperate" for western visitors as such and one has to assume it's the tourism industry that is screaming over the issue. There are clearly policy decisions involved and who knows wether the Chinese authorities consider tourism a major part of their economic planning?
So lets not assume what we want based on so little evidence,ok?

It is a symptom of Chinese management that even 'though their best and brightest have studied overseas, they couldn't bring such simple lessons back with them. Given the exponential increase in western visitors, why were the city authorties not making western amenities a part of their infrastructure programs?

Why do governments do the crazy things they do? National policies might sometimes reflect sanity ( Possibly by accident) but not often and considering the country in question why expect any more sanity than anywhere else on insanely managed planet?

Which means they have neither vision nor clue about how to manage congestion or what congestion will do to their city. Your comments also show that you have no clue about said issue.

There bigger issues on hand that traffic congestion and if you are unaware we can start a few dozen threads on why traffic congestion is a minor issues for most national governments. My comments show that the issue is not really worthy of attention and that you would not have brough it up if you were interested in anything other than a defense of ignorence.

They are dumping textiles into Europe at the moment, selling for less than it costs them to produce. As I said, "Have you been watching what has happened to the world textile industry since the quotas ended?"

The answer is "No."

You always take as high a price for your products as you can manage and dumping and all those measure are simply designed to grab market share and kill off the competition who can not hold out with reduced profits for as long as you can. It's nonsenical in economic terms to sell for the cheapest price you can find for your product and your statement of such notion, and accusation that i suggested it, is simply false.

These are practices that are not unique to Asia and no reason to point extra fingers at them. The EU had a decade to prepare ( and they kept moving it for the last ten years) for the flood of Chinese textiles and if they did not prepare measures for it that just shows how little political and policy interest there was. Do not make this a big issues becuase it's in the news and you like bashing China to start with.

As you say, I say nothing of the kind.

I tried to be civil but i guess you just grab the whole hand when a finger is offered. You suggested that they will somehow suffer like the rest of Asia when the world as a economic crisis and i told you bluntly that they did not do so the last time and probably will not the next time. You then proceeded to deny you ever brough up the Issue of alleged Chinese economic instability.
Giving me more credit will save you time and pride.

Really, even 'though your buyers are already moving elsewhere?

The buyers are always shopping around for the best deal and that's nothing new. The Chinese economy clearly is large enough to deal with these issues and i know not why you decided to move away from the real issue at hand.
Chinese citizens are better off each year in most areas i can think of. My articles showed as much as China allready has the second largest economy in the world based on purchasing power in the economy.

Or, more importantly, how are your workers doing?

Very well thank you. There is no way you could not notice after reading the article's so what's with the denial of fact here? Why bother denying reality just to stick with assumption based on ignorence or lies?

Really, how are you going to pay them these fantastic wages you quote if you don't have orders or customers?

A few blackout does not an economy kill however much that would suit your argument. They are not getting "fantastic" wages as that would make competitive edge rather hard to maintain. What they are recieving is more than they did before and enough to help raise their comfort standard every year. I gave you the facts and figures on exactly how much average wages ( not to mention the buying power) have increased so why deny that the Chinese are in fact managing this fear you have decided impossible? I think you will have to reevaluate you perception on what can be done when a state manages it's own money and does not let foreigners control over the availability of money in the economy.

Besides which, it would be almost impossible for the Chinese (textile) factory workers to do worse each year. From the bottom up is the only direction you can go.

The only way to build an economy is to create a market by whatever means. The most secure way of doing this is simply to do everything yourself and prevent others from controlling the resources that makes economic choices possible. If other countries are forced to accept your money for some reason, at a exchange rate favourable to you , you can pretty much do whatever you like economically as you can create buing power by always printing just enough money for goods to change hands in an efficient way. Go read your Smith and Keynes before assuming so much about economies and how they could ideally work after we get rid of those who control currency artifically by artifically manipulating the movement and availability of money in an economy.

Stellar

[edit on 5-12-2005 by StellarX]

Cascade Range

So many points, so many counterpoints, so many endless cascades, so many slams and no changes of opinion.

Oh my God, I'm having alt.flame flashbacks!

Sorry if I seem stubbornly off-topic here, but in fairness, I'm not the only one.

Originally posted by Netchicken

Ishihara said U.S. ground forces, with the exception of the Marines, were "extremely incompetent" and would be unable to stem a Chinese conventional attack. He said China would not hesitate to use nuclear weapons against Asian and American cities -- even at the risk of a massive U.S. retaliation.

And the last time China's troops saw combat was??????? China will inevitably need to expand but trust they don't want to go to war with the USA. I doubt this article has any merit, and sticking true to Sun Tzu I doubt they would divulge any type of strategy they have for attacking the USA or any other country. In saying that, I do believe the next world war will involve China and the USA.






[edit on 5-12-2005 by CogitoErgoSum1]

A war between the Republic and the USA is foolhardy by any competant military and stragical analysis, historically we've never truly expanded via military means and have never really made a habit about it but often just by buying the land as in the time of the Ancient Dynasties.

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Besides which, it would be almost impossible for the Chinese (textile) factory workers to do worse each year. From the bottom up is the only direction you can go.

Go read your Smith and Keynes before assuming so much about economies and how they could ideally work after we get rid of those who control currency artifically by artifically manipulating the movement and availability of money in an economy.

John Meynard Keynes, father of Keynsian Economic Theory (would you credit it!) and the prime mover behind the World Bank. The only man who theorised a way out of the Great Depression which a) didn't involve a war and b0 was proven to work. The irony being he was British and ignored in Britain while FDR put his theories into practice in the US and in theprocess the US was the only nation to actually climb fully out of depression before the outbreak of WW2. The World Bank and IMF have also moved about as far away from his ideals as it is possible to go.

None of which has anything to do with the point I made.

Let's do this in nice, bite-sized parcels...

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
As you say, I say nothing of the kind.

I tried to be civil but i guess you just grab the whole hand when a finger is offered. You suggested that they will somehow suffer like the rest of Asia when the world as a economic crisis and i told you bluntly that they did not do so the last time and probably will not the next time. You then proceeded to deny you ever brough up the Issue of alleged Chinese economic instability.
Giving me more credit will save you time and pride.

Credit is given where credit is due. Try reading the original post.

I said that if (or when) China has an economic crisis it will make the '97 Asian financial meltdown look small. I didn't say they were involved the '97 crisis. I never denied bringing up the issue, I told you to list the Asian Tigers. The Asian Tigers (who suffered) are small nations with hothouse economies. That is economies that were forcing ahead of their abilities and were not diversified enough to withstand the crisis. ie Thailand, Malaysia etc, the other nations of SEAsia suffered because their economies were in such poor shape after decades of corruption and mismanagement (ala Indonesia) that they didn't have a hope.

Learning to read will save you some time, effort and needless effrontery.

The alarmist's view is that China's economy is now so large, and so hooked into the world, that if (or when) it has a crisis it will precipitate another depression, not merely a recession. I'd say it will definitely cause another recession. Too many Western nations (mostly in the form of big-business) have oriented themsleves to China as a cheap producer/supplier, ignoring other, more traditional, sources, all in the name of dividends for their shareholders.

Or, more importantly, how are your workers doing?

Very well thank you. There is no way you could not notice after reading the article's so what's with the denial of fact here? Why bother denying reality just to stick with assumption based on ignorence or lies?

Again you miss the point, as you have each time you've posted on this little item. I was giving you a hypothetical situation, based on observations coming out of China regarding their energy limits. You decided to give an answer to a completely different question. Still having difficulty reading, then?

Really, how are you going to pay them these fantastic wages you quote if you don't have orders or customers?

A few blackout does not an economy kill however much that would suit your argument. They are not getting "fantastic" wages as that would make competitive edge rather hard to maintain.

No, but in today's textile industry a few blackouts and a missed order or two does a factory kill. And the "fantastic" is me showing you why you shouldn't be crowing about the improvements. ATS has been riddled with threads and posts about what many commentators in the west call China's "Slave Wages". Just because they are better than last year doesn't mean much. All of which is beside the point I was making, which was how are you going to pay your workers at all if you don't get orders?

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Not having been to North America in my life I haven't had the opportunity. But in China, as in most dictatorial nations,

I can show you dictatorial nations if you like and you may compare them to what China has. I am confident you will soon realise the scale of your, once again, uninformed assumption.

Uh-huh. Tienman 1989 ws the mark of a mature democracy. So is the persecution of Falun Gong. Or the demand that western-based ISPs make web-user details open to the government.

Oh, Burma is so much worse than China because they have locked up the winner of the election and won't allow her to take part in political life, so different to the CCP locking one of its own members away under house-arrest until he dies, just for asking some students to go home...

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
I'm talking about criticism from the other nations of the Mekong basin ie their neighbours.

And the Indians and Russians ( and everyone else in the area really) does not pollute with the same gusto to expand their economies? Your trying to make them into criminals when so much of those polluting industry is Western owned. If those owners could get away with such pollution in their own countries they would have but they had to move to countries wich can not afford to refuse the business and jobs these multinations bring. Like any other developing economy the Chinese are partly caught in a trap of western making. Go look at what is happening in the rest of South East Asia and you will realise things are going far better in China than it is in countries where the West has more political and economic influence.

You have no clue what I'm talking about, do you? Where does Russia fit into the Greater Mekong Basin Sub-region?

And where did polluting the river come into it?

Do a little google search for Mekong River Commission.

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
However, there have been some MAJOR lapses, such as Union Carbide and Bophal, India. The best examples of a company having to pay in Australia centre around James Hardie Industries and CSR's Wittenoom mine.

They get caught out but it's public exposure that kills them NOT government as you state. Government could not care less for the most part and they show it at every turn.

Except that the courts rely on the laws governments pass and through the 20th century the industrial/occupational health and safety laws in the west have become ever tighter, ever stronger and they are all based on the concept of "duty of care". That single notion underpins almost all criminal and civil law in countries whose legal systems derive from English Common Law.