NEWS: China prepares to invade "inferior white race's" countries

Originally posted by Vonz
If you can show me where I am wrong I will be glad to edit.

china does not have 764 ships anymore
China has no aircraft carriers
China does not have 90 guided missiles boats anymore
China has retire a large number of frigates and only has about 40 left
China has retired a large amount of patrol boats and has about 100left
China has 2million ground soldiers not 2.5
2.5 Million Troops
China has about 50+ submarines not 72

you also said this

4150 Aircraft total
1500 Fighters
120 Bombers
60 Helos
300 Attack

Your figures only number a little under 2000. where are the other planes.


Vonz the problem with your figurres are they are out dated. they were real figures in the 80s and possbility 90s but not the current figures

... just give it up... I can't believe a Mod hasn't closed this silly thread yet.

The Strongest Deterrent

Originally posted by rmatrem
... just give it up... I can't believe a Mod hasn't closed this silly thread yet.

Why should a mod close it?

If the reason for doing so was that it is pointless, then the same mod would -- to be consistent -- have to shut down the other 14000+ threads on this same basic topic.

If it took a minute to close each thread, that would take over nine days straight to do.

I can't imagine anyone wanting to do that.

Originally posted by rmatrem
... just give it up... I can't believe a Mod hasn't closed this silly thread yet.

Why is it silly.?

at least give a reason for it being silly

I've followed this entire thread from start to finish and am still very interested in the exchange. I'm learning a lot. I honestly find the exercise enlightening.

I hope there are more twists still to come as information gets added.
One thing for sure, the pace, so far has been furious.

I hope you don't close this at all and let it go on until everything is said.

.

Chinawhite,

The numbers I gave are still the real numbers. We were both wrong on some of the numbers. Most of their hardware is in stored or retired but most of which is still held and could be used. They still have the missing that you don’t count 22 of the diesel subs are inactive 10 of them dry-docked for repairs, 6 of them might as well be scrapped. But as of current date, I stand corrected but so do you. 21 destroyers, 43 Frigates, 20 Tank Landing Craft (which I didn’t know they had), 23 medium landing craft, 51 diesel subs, 6 nuclear subs, 1 Nuclear w/ICBM’s, and 51 patrol with guided surface to surface and surface to air missiles 10 mine sweeper and laying.

They still have a operable Multi Role Aircraft Carrier bought from the Royal Navy. It is only used for helos at current date. It was last seen operating between Hong Kong and Singapore during summer of 2003. Little is known of its capability. It has never been seen deploying aircraft but only helos parked on its deck. All of the Air Craft carriers were stripped of almost all components before they acquired them. The other bought from Australia was last known in 1998 under going new fitting and electronic systems replacement. It is unknown of its current status. Most presume they abandoned their efforts to build their own. They also acquired 2 others but were scrapped and broken down to study the hull design. All were acquired back in the early 90’s. I am only going by numbers of the Jane's Defense analysis. If you have issues take it up with them.

China has 2.3 million troops. So excuse me we were both wrong. 3.2 million if you count their police considering if we are talking an invading them. 700,000 are reserves, 50,000 special trained. 300,000 regular armed forces consistently trained. 1.6 million active. 10 million organized militia. That is alot of Grand Pa's with guns.

As far as the remaining planes, most of them they use for training. Su 27’s Mig-29 especially the 200 or so JJ-7, JJ-8, JJ-9, JJ-15 all of which are nothing more than trainers. Yet they could be easily fitted to carry armaments. China has actively and current in operation 1500 fighter 780 bombers and 500 transports. I grossly underestimated their Bomber and Transport in my previous post. These are estimates of the 2005 Annual Report to Congress, Jane’s, and Global Security.org.

Some of which I was wrong but not off by much. Point is they still do not have the means to invade the US. They can bully their neighbors but it will be years before they will be able to conquer the world.


[edit on 1-12-2005 by Vonz]

China has no operational aircraft carriers, and never has.

They have two scrapped carriers, the old Australian Melbourne (I believe it's a casino now) and the never-completed Russian Varyag (which they may be turning into a training carrier or may not be, rather iffy because it has no engines.)

China does not operate the Mig 29 at all.

You really need to double check your sources.

For many years it has been widely speculated that the PLA Navy (PLAN) is interested in building or acquiring an aircraft carrier to improve its power projection capabilities. Although the PLAN is known to have been studying the aircraft carrier building technology and operational principles since the mid-1980s, no concrete evidence had been found proving the existence of such a building programme until recently when the Kuznetzov-class carrier Varyag, obtained by the PLAN from Ukraine in 2002, emerged from a Dalian Shipyard dry dock painted in PLAN grey.

Light Aircraft Carrier Proposal: Under the influence of Liu and other PLA Navy officers who strongly supported the ocean-going offensive strategy, in the early-1980s research institutes and think tanks within the PLA began to study the possibility of building a light aircraft carrier of around 15,000t to 20,000t displacement and carrying helicopters and vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) aircraft such as Sea Harrier.

Purchase of Retired HMAS Melbourne: The aircraft carrier research programme was boosted when a Chinese ship breaker purchased the retired 15,000t aircraft carrier HMAS Melbourne from Australia. The ship, which was stationed in a seaport in Guangzhou for five years before it was finally dismantled for scrap, provided a valuable opportunity for the Chinese shipbuilding engineers to see at first-hand how the ship was designed and built.

Purchase ex-Soviet Carriers: After the end of the Cold War, China was reported to have approached the Ukrainian and in 1992 to purchase the unfinished Soviet Kuznetsov-class carrier Varyag, but was refused. Later China approached the Russian government to purchase one of the four Russian navy’s 40,000t Kiev-class carriers, but the effort was unsuccessful too.

Purchase of European Carriers: In 1995-96 the Spanish shipbuilder Empresa Nacional Bazan approached the Chinese government to promote its two low-cost, lightweight conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) aircraft carrier designs, the 23,000t SAC-200 and the 25,000t SAC-220. However, China was only interested in obtaining the design blueprint rather than ordering the actual vessel. At the end of 1995 it was reported that France had offered to sell China the 32,700t carrier Clemenceau, which was decommissioned in September 1997. Again the deal went nowhere.

Purchase of Retired Russian Carriers: Two private Chinese companies purchased two ex-Soviet Navy Kiev-class aircraft carriers, Minsk and Kiev, in the late 1990s. Both carriers were developed into floating tourism parks based in Shenzhen and Tianjin respectively. It is unknown that how much value these three vessels are of to the Chinese aircraft carrier research programme, but without a doubt they all have been carefully examined by Chinese shipbuilders to benefit the future indigenous aircraft carrier project.

Purchase of Varyag: In early 1998 a Macau-based tourist and amusement company bought the unfinished (70%) 67,500t ex-Soviet Navy Kuznetsov class aircraft carrier Varyag for US$20 million. The company claimed that the ship would be converted into a floating amusement park and Casino in Macau, and the contract with Ukraine stipulated that the buyer can't use the carrier for military purposes. Before handing the ship over, the Ukrainians removed the ship’s electronic equipment and powerplant to prevent it from being turned into a commissionable warship. In March 2002, following a significant delay by Turkish authorities who denied the carrier passage through the Bosporus Strait, the Varyag arrived in Dalian and was soon surrounded by heavy security. Recent reports indicated that the PLAN may try to finish the ship to make it fully operational.
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Today, the PLA Air Force consists of 330,000 personnel, operating some 3,500 aircraft, over 1,000 surface-to-air missile systems, and several thousand anti-aircraft artillery. As a result of China’s ongoing force reduction and military modernisation, the size of the PLA Air Force has been decreasing since the mid-1980s, with most of its obsolete aircraft based on the 1950s-era Soviet designs being retired from service.


[edit on 1-12-2005 by trIckz_R_fO_kIdz]

Originally posted by apc
You seriously need to read up on nuclear blast effect and radiology. It's this kind of ignorance that leads people to think nuclear winter is an effect of modern day nuclear warfare.

What does radiology have to do with nuclear winter?

Nuclear winter is the phenomenon of the sun being blocked out by a huge dust could circling the earth, such as the theory of a comet/asteroid wiping out the dinosaurs and as was observed following the eruption of Krakatoa. That dust cloud circled the earth for three years before finally dissipating.

Vonz,

You admitted that some numbers but you are saying they are real numbers.? You example of storing tanks for later use is not what chinas does. It was done by the soviet union but not china. They tanks are sent to metal work shops or metal yards(what ever there called) to be first stripped of there armnaments and melted down for metal. It is possible that china might have stored them some tanks for future use but i have not seen any edvidence suggesting this.

Chinas submarines have actually been decomissioned. I am not talking about try docks or repairs but actual decomissioning. The older romeo class submarines that china have are being replaced by Ming class submainres on a 2:1 basis. And some romeo class submainrse have been put for training purposes and the rest srapped or what not. 10 in dry dock?

China has a number of destroyer programs all running at once. 52C 51C 52B. Are you including these in your numbers of destroyers?

And about carriers: You are thinking about the indian carrier that they got from the royal navy not china. China has no carriers. The HMS melbourne got scraped in the 90s and the little russian carriers that chian got have become theme parks. I can provide pictures if you want?. But chian also has got another bigger russian carrier which has no engine or no aircraft for it. I wouldn't call that oerational. But from what you see china hasn't got a carrier but has plans to aquire or build one.

China does not have Mig-29s or JJ-15. And the JJ-9 hasn't entered service

CJ-6 - 700 in service?
JJ-7 - 200-300
SU-30UBK - 42
JL-8 - 32

Not very large numbers of training aircraft The PLA does store fighters but not for re-use but to convert the to potenial guided bombs. That doesn't number to 4000? Do you include support fighters as active?. Global and janes have been known to make exaggerated numbers and always wrong estimations. Putting fixed numbers on a rmy so large and going though its largest reforms ever is plain silly. Because figures can change with-in days

Actually you are wrong twice and me once about ground troops. The actual number is 1.6 million troops. I was thinking 2.5 million was to high to be the ground troop number so i estimate 2 million.

With 200,000 troops expected to go again

------------------

I am not debating if the PLA can invade america i am deabting the figures you posted

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
What does radiology have to do with nuclear winter?

Nuclear winter is the phenomenon of the sun being blocked out by a huge dust could circling the earth, such as the theory of a comet/asteroid wiping out the dinosaurs and as was observed following the eruption of Krakatoa. That dust cloud circled the earth for three years before finally dissipating.

Which was exactly my point. Chinawhite made the assumption that the more radiation there is, the stronger the risk for nuclear winter. Obviously, that is not so. As I said, it is the amount of dust pumped into the atmosphere by high yield warheads that brings on such conditions. Our 50KT-1MT bombs wont do it. Their 5MT bombs wont do it. Everyone flinging 10MT at eachother, as was the expectation in the 60s and 70s, covering the entire surface with nuclear fire, would do it.

Originally posted by apc

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
What does radiology have to do with nuclear winter?

Nuclear winter is the phenomenon of the sun being blocked out by a huge dust could circling the earth, such as the theory of a comet/asteroid wiping out the dinosaurs and as was observed following the eruption of Krakatoa. That dust cloud circled the earth for three years before finally dissipating.

Which was exactly my point. Chinawhite made the assumption that the more radiation there is, the stronger the risk for nuclear winter. Obviously, that is not so. As I said, it is the amount of dust pumped into the atmosphere by high yield warheads that brings on such conditions. Our 50KT-1MT bombs wont do it. Their 5MT bombs wont do it. Everyone flinging 10MT at eachother, as was the expectation in the 60s and 70s, covering the entire surface with nuclear fire, would do it.

50 and 60's bombs werent that clean but as time progressed and hydrogen bombs and such were being used, radiation was lower i think.
en.wikipedia.org... you think 10mt is big look at that one. The explosion could be seen and felt in Finland, even breaking windows there. Atmospheric focusing caused blast damage up to 1,000 km away. The seismic shock of the test went around the Earth three times.

[edit on 1-12-2005 by trIckz_R_fO_kIdz]

Originally posted by apc
Chinawhite made the assumption that the more radiation there is, the stronger the risk for nuclear winter.

No i didn't.

From foruming for 2 years now i know what nuclear winter is

Maybe you should double check if i did or didn't

this is pure nonsense in its highest form. China and the US are not going to war. The US and Russia are not going to war.

China is focused on becoming the energy efficient, pollution free, eviromental friendly hybrid car super giant. How many cars you think they are going to sell if they go to war, how many you think they are going to sell in the US. WHY would they divert so much of their resources into building enviromental friendly systems.....

How many US firms have recently opened and helped build manufacturing facilities in China. How many US Companies rely on Chinese manufactured goods. You think the US wants to go to war with China. You think China wants to lose US and western acceptance of its goods....

NO WAY

Its all about Capital strength why fight when you can buy..

Why fight with ships that cost money to build and maintain when the pen can make a mightier statement then the sword.....

WHY IS THE STATEMENT THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THEN THE SWORD TRUE and has been for hundreds if not thousands of years....

We're number 1,

China's number 2...

We're gonna beat the poopie out of you!

Originally posted by robertfenix
this is pure nonsense in its highest form. China and the US are not going to war. The US and Russia are not going to war.

China is focused on becoming the energy efficient, pollution free, eviromental friendly hybrid car super giant. How many cars you think they are going to sell if they go to war, how many you think they are going to sell in the US. WHY would they divert so much of their resources into building enviromental friendly systems.....

How many US firms have recently opened and helped build manufacturing facilities in China. How many US Companies rely on Chinese manufactured goods. You think the US wants to go to war with China. You think China wants to lose US and western acceptance of its goods....

NO WAY

Its all about Capital strength why fight when you can buy..

Because you can't buy lebensraum in der ost, you have to take it.

The whole point is the General (who it appears we collectively tend to assume didn't actually say this) is saying trade with the US is only important as a means of gaining technology. After the germ warfare attack there won't be a US to sell to and there will be no need for one, China is going to colonise (or re-colonise!) the continent and make use of its abundant space and natural resources.

China has no choice but to focus on becoming energy efficient and pollution free, the General as much as admits that, but he also basically says that by itself that simply won't be enough.

China must expand or die for political reasons, that is, for the CCP to remain in unchallenged authority it must expand China or go the way of the USSR through peaceful evolution. ie the CCP is determined to prevent the natural order from taking its course, which is change, change, change.

In the west we keep the change orderly by organising it every three to five years and channeling it. They haven't got that trick worked out yet.

Basically this bloke is admitting he and the CCP are the same as Napolean, only through war and expansion can they remain in charge. They don't have the talent or vision required for peace-time administration.

Edit:sp

[edit on 2-12-2005 by HowlrunnerIV]

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

They don't have the talent or vision required for peace-time administration.

Which is why he no longer holds a position in the party. Because that is not the agenda that China wants to pursue.

The moderates are gaining power, China has lots of area to account for expansion on its own soil, what it needs is more money to motivate their home economy to stimulate "consumerisim" on its home turf. By employing more people it will pump more money into their own economy which in turn will make them prosper and grow. Once they have achieved a higher rate of consumer participation by Chinese nationals in their own economy they can begin to regulate and manage it like the US does my adjusting interest rates, lending rates etc.

Homes price in the desirable "westernized" area of China have already doubled in the last three years.

Originally posted by robertfenix
Homes price in the desirable "westernized" area of China have already doubled in the last three years.

That could be taken as nothing more than a sign of inflation, not a healthy economy. On its own it isn't really an indicator of anything.

Remember that there were "millionaires" who couldn't afford to live in Silicone Valley. It was nothing more than a localised bubble being driven by an economy out of synch with itself. Remember what happened to "Silcone Valley" a few years ago? Unless you were an actual programmer the future didn't look too rosy.

China is going through growth rates that most major western economists say are unsustainable and if the gov't doesn't put the brakes on soon they will go into recession instead. Only this time it won't be something small like Thailand causing the Asian financial crisis, which the west could weather easily and the Tigers could bounce back from within 18 months. The only ones who won't be affected are the peasants in the fields. Their lives will continue as is, but the city "elite" will have real problems.

Originally posted by chinawhite
Maybe you should double check if i did or didn't

China only needs to launch its twenty or so nuclear weapons with 5megatons each it will make the american continent to poluted to sustain life. Throw in some other missles in the region and the whole world is un-sustainble thanks to the american attack.

The whole world unsustainable due to the American attack? Gee... sure sounds like you're referring to nuclear winter.

Nuclear winter will not happen with the 20 or so missiles hitting the USA but with the US resonse (leveling china to a giant carpark) I am pretty sure there will be massive fallout and radioactivity

Sure sounds like you're implying the fallout and radioactivity from an American attack would bring about nuclear winter.

If my interpretations are incorrect, perhaps you should consider properly phrasing your arguments in the future.

Yes, but you also didn't read his post, he knows that China's Atomic arsonal can't do squat inregards to a atomic winter, but, he says that if America turns China into a carpark (Damn you Tom Clancy) then you'll have nuclear winter.