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Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
I also just add that the reports of the molten metal under the wreckage have been known of in the 9-11 truth movement for years, and have been reported on ATS and elsewhere on the Internet throughout. This is not a new thing.
Originally posted by Springer Now we would have to look at each security employee brought in by Silverstein's people (I guarantee you he did not personally hire that level of employee) and see if which, if any of them were absent on the day of the attack. There's no way ANY of those involved would go to work that day knowing the building was coming down. This would give you a list of suspects to interview with much PRESSURE.
Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.
"Today was the first day there was not the extra security," Coard said. "We were protecting below. We had the ground covered. We didn't figure they would do it with planes. There is no way anyone could have stopped that."
Half of the 17-story Sheikh A. Alakl Apartment Building in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia collapsed when portions of the new reinforced concrete facility were overloaded during final stages of construction. At the request of Bechtel, Controlled Demolition Incorporated’s team mobilized to the site in less than 24 hours, prepared the central-core, flat slab, reinforced concrete structure in another 27 hours and put the balance of the building on the ground with absolute safety just 96 hours after the start of demolition preparations
Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
You just can't help yourself, can you Muadibb? Why do you have to jump in and start with your sniping and derogatory comments, attempting to turn every single debate you participate in into a petty, childish exchange? .............
Originally posted by Halfofone
shows Mr. Silverstiens un-willingness to answer questions about the 'pull it' comment.
Originally posted by Halfofone
I would think the Fire Chief doesn’t have to ask Mr. Silverstien permission to pull his men out.
Originally posted by Halfofone
A little fishy no?
"It felt good," he said of running the ad. "I felt like, hey, I've done something here. No matter what happens I've made history, because future historians are going to see this in the paper."
Originally posted by Muaddib
...what I don't like and what I don't accept is that you are trying now to play the victim in front of two moderators...
...you are lowering the standards that ATS and ATSNN has been striving for...
...I have have been trying to maintain the high standards of the site...
Perhaps for you it doesn't mean much, but for me "Denying Ignorance" is not only the motto of the site...
If i am tough on people like yourself wecomeinpeace, is because of this standard which i think has been dying in the forums...
Originally posted by Halfofone
This caught my attention…
Half of the 17-story Sheikh A. Alakl Apartment Building in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia collapsed when portions of the new reinforced concrete facility were overloaded during final stages of construction.
Now the first 24 hours doesn’t count because that’s travel time. The 96 I’m assuming is time from when they got there, so we can minus the 27 cause we don’t need to prepare the core (remove concrete or empty the non-load bearing material), or reinforce anything in WTC, because the building above had some damage already. So we end up with 69 hours. I think that it is possible but certainly it would have to have been a very highly organized and quick placement.
Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
Man...if you could only hear yourself talk. I'm just dumbfounded. Can we get off the topic of me, and how I and people like me are destroying ATS while you're raising the standard, and just get back on to the topic of the thread? Please? Pretty please with syrup on top? Can you let it go?
[edit on 2005-11-23 by wecomeinpeace]
I wonder if we could get a demolition expert to do calculations on those buildings... THAT would be fascinating
fhwang.net...
Saturday, July 24, 2004
New Scientist has an interview with Mark Loizeaux, the head of Controlled Demolition Incorporated, one of the biggest demolitions firms in the world.
The interview also includes Loizeaux telling us why he thinks computers will never have a major place in the field:
… CAD is used for putting things together where you specify the steel, the concrete, you assume construction methods within parameters of building codes. You assume it was put in using health and safety-approved methods and inspections. It does not allow for weathering, structural fatigue, modification, all the things that don't show up on blueprints. … [With demolition] You move into a different category of structure that is distressed—failed yet standing structures that have failed as functioning structures because they break building codes or have been burnt, struck by lightning or tragically these days bombed or hit by planes. And it frightens me that would-be advancers of the demolition arts think that they can take a program—which is entirely contingent on the data put into it—to analyse what is going to happen in a structural system which is beyond definition. It can be bracketed, it cannot be defined.
Originally posted by Springer
GREAT counter points W.C.I.P. the fact the support columns were not encased in concrete is potentially a huge thing. Theoretically, and going way out on limb it is possible someone could appear to be a maintenance crew with the crooked building security force's (NO way the tenant's security teams would go for this) authorization and HIDE the necessary explosives between the sheet rock and the support columns.
www.physics911.net...
Thus to melt a 12 ft high Fe column, we need for an "average" column, (3.03 x 10+6 kJ)/(3.974 x 10+3 kJ/kg) = 0.7625 x 10+3 kg = 762.5 kg of thermite. This would occupy a volume of 762.5 kg/(3.474 x 10+3 kg/m3) = 0.219 m^3.
Other Locations Where Thermite Could Be Placed to Cause Core Box Column Melting
In the preceding section, the amount of thermite needed to cause melting was calculated, and compared to the internal volume available. Just as insulation in building walls is introduced by means of relatively small holes drilled through walls, so could thermite have been placed into the interiors of the core box columns. For the "average" columns this would certainly work, since there is ample volume to overcharge with a low packing density (>0.5). The "largest" columns could be filled in the same way, although some way to "settle" the compound powders might be necessary to achieve a packing density from a pour to be > 0.68.
Rather than fill the interior of a column with chemical compound, what if the thermite compound was applied to the outside of the column, under a layer of "fire-proofing" protective cladding/thermal insulation? How thick would an exterior layer need to be applied?
[...]
T = 0.0236 m = 0.93", which is less than 1" of coating for the "average" column.
However, there have been undoubtedly a number of opportunities under the guise of maintenance: many stories exist about problems with the "insulation" adhering to the steel support structures of the WTC towers. Also, the first attack on the WTC towers in 1993, in the basement of the complex, offered an opportunity for access and "repair" to demolition experts and construction personnel. Thermite is a relatively safe compound, requiring high temperature to initiate reaction - a magnesium fuse is commonly used.
Originally posted by Springer
Now we would have to look at each security employee brought in by Silverstein's people (I guarantee you he did not personally hire that level of employee) and see if which, if any of them were absent on the day of the attack. There's no way ANY of those involved would go to work that day knowing the building was coming down. This would give you a list of suspects to interview with much PRESSURE.
Originally posted by redmage
Also coincidentally, his contract was allegedly "up" on 9/11.
or is it that he is tired of people going after him asking the same questions over and over and over?..
The building in that article was half of a 17 story buiding... I would doubt you could get anywhere near doing the job on the WTCs, as huge as they were, in anywhere near 69 hours.
I wonder if we could get a demolition expert to do calculations on those buildings.
Originally posted by Springer
You also stated, again as an Engineer who is qualified in structural failure, construction principles and metallurgy "Buildings just don't fall like that unless you intend for them to...
You are certainly supported by the historical record on that point, there has NEVER been a building that wasn't preloaded with demolition materials anywhere, anytime that fell in on itself so perfectly as the three buildings in question here, WTC-1,2,and 7.
Mike Taylor of the National Association of Demolition Contractors in Doylestown, Pennsylvania. The collapse of the WTC towers looked like a classic controlled demolition.
www.newscientist.com...
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NY Fire Department Chief of Safety stated there were "bombs" and "secondary devices", which caused the explosions in the buildings (video); or high-quality audio here
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MSNBC reporter stated that police had found a suspicious device "and they fear it could be something that might lead to another explosion" and the police officials believe "that one of the explosions at the world trade center . . . may have been caused by a van that was parked in the building that may have had some kind of explosive device in it, so their fear is that there may have been explosive devices planted either in the building or in the adjacent area"
Video
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9/11 Survivor Describes Multiple Explosions
Veliz went down a staircase with a coworker to the concourse level. In the mall, they got onto an up-escalator as the South Tower collapsed, causing a rush of wind which knocked them down. In the pitch black, Veliz and her coworker followed someone carrying a flashlight:
"The flashlight led us into Borders bookstore, up an escalator and out to Church Street. There were explosions going off everywhere. I was convinced that there were bombs planted all over the place and someone was sitting at a control panel pushing detonator buttons. I was afraid to go down Church Street toward Broadway, but I had to do it. I ended up on Vesey Street. There was another explosion. And another. I didn't know where to run."
www.thememoryhole.org...
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Police Officer described events which occurred inside Tower One after the second plane hit and well before that tower collapsed:
As my officer and I were looking at the south tower, it just gave. It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit, because we originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.
With that everybody was just stunned for a second or two, looking at the tower coming down. Then everybody started to turn towards the garage. That was it. We were just kind of blown into the garage with all the dust and the debris and
www.nytimes.com...
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In addition, there are many eyewitness accounts of phenomena consistent with the use of explosives in the world trade center buildings:
Paramedic captain stated "somewhere around the middle of the world trade center there was this orange and red flash coming out initially it was just one flash then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode the popping sound and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as could see these popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger going both up and down and then all around the building" (pdf file; Google's web version is here). Compare this authenticated tape of a controlled demolition by a leading demolition company -- can you see the orange and red flashes on the near side of the building? How about at the base of this building, the Kingdome? Both of these tapes are posted at the "World Records" section of Controlled Demolition, Inc.'s website)
sfgate.com...
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