Billy Meier called the New Nostradamus!?!?

Centrist,

Someting just caught my eye that might interest you. I recalled that Ike said that Meier was wrong about the rings of Jupiter being composed of ionized sulfur (I'm not looking at Ike's doc but I think that this is one of the points he raised). Well, please read this from:
adsabs.harvard.edu...):

"Images of the ring of singly ionized sulfur encircling Jupiter, obtained on two successive nights in April 1979, show that the ring characteristics may change dramatically in about 24 hr."

Here's Meier's quote:

"Now I am still wondering, if regarding the volcanic action on the moon Io, I remember correctly. If I am right, then you explained that the volcanic eruptions there would occur with primordial power and resemble monstrous explosions, which would thrust up their ejected material like atomic mushrooms, whereby sometimes heights would be reached up to 180 kilometer. Principally, it involves dust particles, gasses, ashes and some magma, but which would reach ejection velocities up to 2,300 kilometer per hour and beyond, as due to the lack of atmosphere of the moon, only minute resistance power is present. But you also said that the largest portion of all ejected material again falls back on the moon, as I already mentioned before. The rest, you explained, would be pushed out into space, while a part of it is drawn by Jupiter and very slowly densifies in its ring to a heavy sulphur-ion-combination. Is that correct?"

Please also note that while Meier published this in October 1978, Stevens already put his March 9, 1979 date on having the document and then having the other two men read and sign off on it. So it appears that Ike was indeed wrong...unless you want ot start creating far reaching conspiracies involving Stevens , the two other men - and someone being VERY psychic to even concern themselves with the potential importance of fine details of Meier's info - decades in advance.

I also recall that Ike may have criticized Meier regarding the speed and height of the eject, so please note that Meier says, "...ejection velocities up to 2,300 kilometer per hour and beyond..."

And please also confirm the info at www.nineplanets.org... regarding the surface of Io.
And then compare it with what Meier reported:

"Aha, and will then perhaps also be discovered, that the ring around Jupiter, for the most part, consists of particles catapulted outward by large volcanos of the moon, Io, which partially are captured by Jupiter while, however, the largest portion of all the outward catapulted material again falls back on Io, and practically closes all volcano openings again, but also the gigantic plateaus and mountains, which this moon, in contrast to the other moons of Jupiter, proves to have no carter landscape, but a fantastic evenness, despite the many craters?"

Now, if people here are intellectually honest, they will start wondering HOW Meier knew and reproted all of this and WHY this case - with its volumes of information - is being made available to people of earth. Hint: It has to do with our future survival.

Centrist,

As Columbo used to say, "one more thing". I recall that Ike aslo said that Meier was wrong about Amalthea being the closest moon to Jupiter. However, when you look up the dimension for the so-called moons you get the following:

METIS
Metis is 25 miles (40 km) in diameter and orbits 79,500 miles (128,000 km) from Jupiter, within its main ring.

ADRASTEA
Adrastea is 12 miles (20 km) in diameter and orbits 80,000 miles (129,000 km) from Jupiter, within its main ring.

AMALTHEA
Amalthea is 145 x 91 x 83 miles (232 x146 x134 km) in diameter and orbits 112,700 miles (181,300 km) from Jupiter, within the faint Gossamer ring.

THEBE
Thebe is 68 x 56 miles (110 x 90 km) in diameter and orbits 138,000 miles (222,000 km) from Jupiter.

As you can see, Amalthea is more than twice the size of Thebe, the next largest "moon". But the Plejaren made it clear to Meier when they spoke of the actual number of Saturn's moons, that certain objects are too small to be considered moons, and some are just asteroids, etc. In that light, the Plejaren may also be correct that Jupiter has only 17 actual moons, the rest being satellites that don't qualify by their definition.

Considering that Io, the third largest of Jupiter's moons, has a diameter of 1,942 miles, Amalthea may well be consiered the actual moon closest to Jupiter.

While I thank you for bringing Ike's not so accurate information to my attention, since further reasearch supports Meier's original statements, perhaps you - and any others who are skeptical about hte Meier case - should be doing more research and discovery, especially before using flawed research to try to discredit Meier.

While I thank you for bringing Ike's not so accurate information to my attention, since further reasearch supports Meier's original statements, perhaps you - and any others who are skeptical about hte Meier case - should be doing more research and discovery, especially before using flawed research to try to discredit Meier.

Michael. I have studied what Meier said and what Ike42 wrote. Ike42 is correct. You're simply trying to rationalize Meier through reinterpretation of his writing using disclaimers and qualifiers. I've carefully studied all of the information you linked to. I do appreciate the research, but you're failing to address the critical point -- all of this information, correct or not, was known available to the public and known to science at the time Meier wrote it. More peculiarly, much of it was published recently prior to March 1979. Thus, no conspiracy involving Stevens or the shadowy signatories to Steven's receipt of the material is necessary.

Now, if people here are intellectually honest, they will start wondering HOW Meier knew and reproted all of this and WHY this case - with its volumes of information - is being made available to people of earth. Hint: It has to do with our future survival.

NO! Here you go again. You're trying to get us to assume facts that have not been established and focus our attention away from the question of the evidence. I don't care why Billy Meier wrote those things. The unproven assumption is that he wrote them because aliens gave him that information. I want the proof that aliens gave him that information.

You argument is that because the information would not have been easily accessible to Billy Meier, the obscurity of the scientific content at the time it was written is proof of alien involvement. You're missing the fact that I'm truly giving that argument weight, but there's still a piece of the puzzle missing -- the alien connection. All you've "proven" is that he may have been visited by a roving band of intellectuals. I sincerely do not want you to think I'm being sarcastic in that remark, just that I know you understand the lack of evidence to make the logical jump to alien visitation without direct evidence. You evidence is purely circumstantial. While there's nothing wrong with circumstantial evidence, per se, the extraordinary nature of Meier's claim requires that it be proven with direct evidence -- it's simply too much to ask, to inferentially conclude that Meier was fed his information from extraterrestrials.

All we know with certainty is that Meier wrote of things that were in modern science journals and international newspapers. You have shown no proof, other than by blind faith, to correlate Meier's writings with extraterrestrial visitation. If there's something that irrefutably could not have been known to an earthly scientist in 1979, please direct me to it. Unfortunately, every fact presented by Meier has less the irrefutable reliability. That's not to say his writing isn't extremely compelling. It is. I do agree with you that the evidence is plentiful and, in many cases, inexplicable. I know we could debate each point ad naseum and fail to agree on whether it proves Meier's claims, however. I propose we agree to disagree not on the amount of evidence presented with Meier's story, or the difficulties associating with disproving it, but instead we merely disagree on whether or not it proves extraterrestrial involvement.

As I read through our exchanges, we primarily differ on interpretation of the data with regard to the sufficiency with which it allows us to make the "leap" into believing that it conclusively proves extra-terrestrial involvement.

Here's the problem... each piece of evidence, to date, has fallen into two categories -- either it can't be proven that it's fake, but fails to conclusively prove any claims (the sound and photographs) or it can't be proven to be authentic, but if it were it would be conclusive of Meier's claims (the physical samples, whether he published technical facts before they were known on earth, etc.). Something's still missing.

One area that I refuse to consider, however, is "why" Meier chose to write about what he wrote. Warn mankind of danger? No. That doesn't work for me. It doesn't change the character of the evidence, it merely clouds the analysis with philosophy and speculation. We can never get into Billy Meier's head, so we can't draw inferences from what his motivation to write what he wrote was. If an alien race was concerned about the future of mankind and wanted to give us a subtle warning, I firmly believe that they would have taken a more effective approach. This based on the collective writings of Billy Meiers, by the way.

Centrist et al,

I'm afraid you have both overlooked some things and are mistaken. First, Ike concedes a lot of accurate information to Meier, "All of these facts are still believed true," but then tries to dismiss it with an offhanded, "All of them were reported in news articles in March 1979." Very sorry but that doesn't - in any way shape or form - show, let alone prove, that Meier had access to them. And this is an enormously important point, especially since there also were no "roving bands of intellectuals" who, for some unknown reason, sought out a Swiss farmer to whisper such info in his ear.

And, since we're not talking about an astronomy professor being accused of plagiarism of some readily known information, it's simply irresponsible to attempt to gloss over or dismiss this glaringly important information. It's the kind of stuff that a whole investigation could be developed over in itself.

And, where Ike begins to quote dates for the Jupiter ring info, they're all strangely after March 9, 1979, let alone October 19, 1978, so one (if they are objective and interested in finding the truth) is either compelled to accept the truthfulness of Meier's information or PROVE the hoax and the conspiracy theory. Regarding Amalthea, we can concede that Meier was incorrect on its size but, since the dates that Ike gives for the correct info on Amalthea were between March 7 and April 1, and he states that Meier must have gleaned his information AFTER it was all published - why would he use incorrect information, especially regarding it being the innermost moon? Neither you nor Ike can have it both ways! Logic, please.

Regarding Meier's info about the surface of Io, Ike neglects to confirm what Meier said, i.e. that sulfur is indeed the dominant element on its surface. However, when he tries to say that there was no water on Io, or that erroneous reports were what Meier relied on (again, completely illogical because of the dates) he is quoting inconclusive info, there is still no definitive statement regarding the past presence of water on Io.

Regarding the height and speed of the ejecta, Ike is splitting hairs and makes no important point, especially since "beyond" that speed is an indeterminate speed and Ike can't say exactly how fast, therefore, he can hardly indict Meier on this info...regarding a body in our solar system about which nothing was known at the time Meier first published the info or when Stevens first possessed it!

In his point 7. Ike is plainly WRONG, as I have already provided info showing that a ring of jupiter is indeed composed of ionized sulfur. And he's wrong as well when he neglects to acknowledge that Meier said that a certain amount of material fell back on the moon's surface.

8. And, since it's now acknowledged that a ring of Jupiter is indeed composed of ionized sulfur, Meier is also correct in stating it, as well as stating that there are also dust particles in the composition of Jupiter's rings, as was later discovered (in 1998). The fact that there may also be particles from the moons doesn't invalidate the sulfur component.

Most importantly, Ike doesn't provide - as neither do you - one single, solitary checkable, shred of evidence that the information was available and accessible to, sought after, or plagiarized, by Meier. "Coulda" doesn't cut it. And I don't think that you will fully understand it until you actually research it. For instance, find out in which article(s) information that you feel is critical to establishing Meier's legitimacy or hoaxing was/were published. Find out when it would have been available, in GERMAN, where Meier lived. Find out if there's any record or indication that Meier frequented the source, i.e. newsstand, library, university, etc. If you or Ike want to claim that an article written on March 9, for example, was available to Meier, in German, on or about that date (when Stevens claimed that Meier gave him the document), at the very least you'd best be able to show that such was the case and not float "theories" that are completely unsubstantiated.

So, no, Ike is NOT correct and it's not any sort of semantics on my part. People's lives have rested on such fine distinctions and proofs, on demonstrably available or unavailable evidence, time, motive and opportunity. Since nowhere do I see you questioning just how the multitude of diverse components in this case could possibly be accounted for by one man unless there was an outside source of assistance to whom the information was available, which eliminates anyone known to Meier and quite possibility, all things considered, anyone on earth, a little humility might be in order.

And when you say, "All we know with certainty is that Meier wrote of things that were in modern science journals and international newspapers." I say absolutely not. I already gave information regarding Vesuvius and Meier published information regarding Saturn and Venus and the two planets beyond Pluto, as well as the info on Io that wasn't yet known and/or available to him. If you say that's wrong, then YOU prove it, come up with the publications on all of them AND the proven availability to Meier.

Pardon me but this, "Here's the problem... each piece of evidence, to date, has fallen into two categories -- either it can't be proven that it's fake, but fails to conclusively prove any claims (the sound and photographs) or it can't be proven to be authentic, but if it were it would be conclusive of Meier's claims (the physical samples, whether he published technical facts before they were known on earth, etc.)." is plain nonsense. We can and have proved that Meier forewarned about the Iraq war, not only in 1958, but also in 1995...and that was published also in the book "And Yet They Fly!" released in September 2001 - before the war started! Not only that but several other (sequential) predictions in that book also occurred, culminating with the very specific warning regarding the avoidable possibility of an accident at the nuclear power plant near Lyon, France (one of 436 on the planet) - an accident which was indeed successfully averted on August 12. 2003, 8 years after he FIRST warned of it and 2 years after it was already in the book. And the Paris information has been published since 1982 and and 1987, and is also in my DVD from 2004. Intellectual honesty please!

If this was any other topic, one that didn't push so many buttons for people, you'd be all over the place with your tongue hanging out wondering how amazing it was.

So when you write something like this, "If an alien race was concerned about the future of mankind and wanted to give us a subtle warning, I firmly believe that they would have taken a more effective approach." all I can tell you with absolute certainty s what the Plejaren have allegedly told Meier, i.e. that we are bringing upon ourselves our own destruction because we are simply too stupid and too arrogant to learn, from the prophecies or anything else. And you don't have to take this personally but, unfortunately, the various internet forums are full of otherwise "intelligent" people who don't have the ability to reason, use logic and common sense or the ability to, for just a brief moment, suspend their unspoken belief that they are the wisest ones in the universe who, paradoxically, need to have everything spoon feed to them just the way they like it or they will find countless "rational" reasons to reject it.

So while it may seem inconceivable to folks here, you, me and the rest of us just aren't that important. Further, we're actually so abysmally stupid that we don't even get the cosmic joke built into this whole case - a one-armed man would get the unenviable gig of trying to gently persuade humanity to pay attention to some larger truths and greater wisdom, while accomplishing sufficiently monumental and compelling tasks (super-human, in fact) as to engage know-it-alls for over 40 years, who would pompously "debate" and largely ridicule his efforts, from the comfort of their little desks and computers...and small minds.

Of course not one of them - not ONE - would trouble themselves to take their lazy asses to where these goings on still go on to find out for themselves what the truth of the matter is. And, failing that, they'd whine and whimper and "protect" themselves from being "taken" by some "con man", who'd put his years of research into a DVD costing less than $30, yeah, I really admire the mentality in this country. And, being so ignorant of the laws of cause and effect (in a society largely immersed in delusional religious and political beliefs) we are like the proverbial frog in the ever-heating water, except that we're the ones also turning up the heat on ourselves in a final gesture of suicidal arrogance and stupidity.

Sorry folks, you may think that this case is simply an (another) opportunity for mental masturbation in our already overly-entertained lives but I don't. And I have to admire a man like Meier who, despite all the abuse from the pea-brained inhabitants of this shopping mall cum planet, still holds some level of optimism that people will wake up in time.

So don't take offense if none of this applies to you but, if you see that it does, do take some initiative, gain the ability to think and regain the lost ability to still be in awe of things greater and more amazing than the limitations you have placed on yourselves.


mod edit: do not circumvent the censors


[edit on 11-12-2005 by sanctum]

Just a few points to make after reading many of the posts on this thread. First let me say that I think Billy Meier really is involved with aliens. But my points have to do with what does and what does not constitute proof. Simply because Billy Meier's statements are sometimes "confirmed" by scientists does not constitute proof. These scientists hear this stuff. What they do is they try to rip off information from people like Billy Meier and people like myself, (although I'm in no way trying to compare myself with Billy Meier). I know from firsthand experience the kinds of things that go on after all I've been through. Who I am is unimportant. They will rip off, yes scientists, people like Billy Meier and produce something that they call theoretical physics and try to explain it. They want to be the FIRST one to have put forward such a theory. They are looking for their place in history. They wish to make a name for themselves. And they DO rip off people like Billy Meier. Secondly, just because some of the events that Billy Meier predicts come to pass does in no way, shape, or form prove that Billy Meier saw the future about them. He may have influenced the future. These things become self-fulfilling prophecies. Many believe that if these things are going to happen, especially in the case of predicted wars, that it is better to get it over with. These things actually can CAUSE wars that may or may not have happened if they had not been predicted. Don't play the aliens for dimwitts. These are extremely intelligent beings. They DO use psychology and REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY. You cannot outsmart them.

Of course not one of them - not ONE - would trouble themselves to take their lazy asses to where these goings on still go on to find out for themselves what the truth of the matter is. And, failing that, they'd whine and whimper and "protect" themselves from being "taken" by some "con man", who'd put his years of research into a DVD costing less than $30, yeah, I really admire the mentality in this country.

You hit the nail square on the head. The mentality of this country is quite clear. We're not wasting $30 on some guy who hasn't shown any genuine evidence of what he's claims. Who cares about the writing? The photos? The silly sound? The elusive metallurgical analysis? And to my knowledge, Paris has still not yet burned to the ground/

How about you stop accusing everyone else of being so lazy and closed minded and open yourself up to seeing things from other people's perspectives. You can spin the evidence all over town, it's not going to change the fact that there isn't enough solid evidence of irrefutable authenticity to prove the what Meier claims. You can argue till the end of time about whether Billy could have made his predictions or published his writings or taken his photo or recorded his sound. So what? Give us some direct evidence of alien visitation. Something we can all see and examine and analyze and, once and for all, know that we are not alone in this universe.

Open your mind.
Listen to what the people say.
Give them what they ask for.

Until then, don't expect people to rush out and spend $30 for the truth about "the greatest event in the history of mankind". Broadcast it to the world.

Just out of curiosity... why is it that no one charges for proof of any other supposed contact with extraterrestrial intelligence... Roswell, MJ-12, Area 51, etc. All of the "evidence" in those cases is freely available. Sometimes people occasionally charge for their books, but that's reasonable given the time they spend investigating their claims.

How many people would buy the MJ-12 papers, given their questionable authenticity? Do you think people's imression of Roswell would be different if the only place that photos and "evidence" about Roswell was sold for $30?

Maybe you'll see, maybe you won't. Many of us want to believe... you're making it harder.

I for one want to believe. I been diggin and I feel like Alice. fallen into the rabbit hole. I keep comin up with more questions than answers. Like why doesnt stan friedman have anything to say? Why wont you let IIG examine the metal? why arent you mentioned on Billymeier.com? wheres the scientific evidence page? What about the GSW photo analysis What happened to the 'box of rocks' dilettoso examined?
I started lookin into the whole thing. Your logic is indeed breathtaking. James Randi did not recant his offer of 1 mil. He said the claim was not paranormal. To get the mil it must be proved TO BE paranormal.
I have also looked into the origins of Meiers story. I found several people who had already discussed theories similar to his.
3 to begin
Capra's Tao of Physics
Seratites' Structural Nature of Matter
and an article in The New Science by Smith
these were all pre-1962
They discuss the exact same ideas that Mr. Meier later espoused. Then I found UFO Contact From Planet Koldas: a cosmic dialogue by Carl Van Vlierden. All of these were readily avaible to anyone willing to look. After reading these I was srtuck by the similarities.
I have been unable to turn up any information concerning the possibilty that Meiers info has been examined by independent sources. Why havent the negatives been sent KODAK? surely they could provide some analysis. Then I remembered the "poor storage" and the fire so I went and dug up some of my negs that were 20 years old and not kept in the best of condition. cost me $15 but they came out fine.
What about the GSW photo analysis?
I have to admit that the photo with the blurred car in front of the perfectly focused UFO has me stumped.
So does the MIB attempted assasination. Why would they use 22's and miss from 8 meters.
and as for Ike42, well I read his treatise twice and I still cant find anywhere where he concedes anything to Meier.
Have I reached any conclusions?
Yes. I still dont know. I would be much more willing to believe Meier if he had someone like Friedman behind him as opposed to Stevens or Elders or Lorenzen.
I think the most puzzling thing I found was that the people who want to believe the most are the ones who denounce Mr. meiers.
I'm still diggin. I've had to stear away from Mr. horns writing as the invective overwelms.
I'm still unconvinced either way. Oh and I hardly think being linked to the Gulf Breeze sightings helps.
P.S.
I couldnt find anything in your creds that would leave me to believe that you have any expertise in this field. And again I ask- If these folk are lying sue em.......libel, slander.......I would. Litiguous USA. After all Underground Video Inc are goin to the Grand Jury. Thats felony. You could at least get in small claims court.


[edit on 10/12/05 by longhaircowboy]

[edit on 10/12/05 by longhaircowboy]

Centris you are the man.
I couldnt have said it better. Send me a copy of the DVD Mr. Horn and I will watch it and publish an independent review here. That way we take the money out of the equation. After I've watched it I will send it back. And I'll pay for the shipping.
c'mon!!!!!

Mr Horn STFU and take your hoaxing crap off of this forum.

It HAS been proven many times that Meier is nothing but a cultist hoax. Example the alien girls pics ?

"The Asket & Nera Hoax
Meier made pictures of the "Pleiadian aliens" too, the blurry ladies on the photograph showed Asket and Nera, according to Meier. When the pictures were examined one noticed that there was a reflection and a strange curve in the pictures, almost as if they were taken off a TV screen. Meiers first excuse is that he took the photographs of the 'aliens' not directly but from a large videoscreen on board of a 'beam-ship'. Too bad that it was discovered just recently that the pictures were INDEED taken from a TV set. The 'aliens' were infacts girls from the Dean Martin Show. Once this came to the open, "Billy" came up with following excuse, still to be found in detail on his web-site: The Men in Black had secretly switched the genuine pictures of Asket and Nera with photos of their American 'doubles' who just happened to be on the Dean Martin show (?). Ptaah had told him so in '85. He just forgot. All to discredit Him, "Billy". The picture on the left shows the Asket&Nera-fake, the german text says the MiB did it, not 'innocent' mr. Meier... "

I could go on & on .. the dinosaur pics that Meier photographed from a magazine and claimed he took them while time travelling with his alien friends.

Billy Meier IS and ALWAYS will be a hoax and fraud artist who doesn't deserve a minute of attention and people like Mr Horn are nothing but parasites trying to cash in and extend Meier's frauds.

Sorry Zamboni. I disagree. nothing I have seen leads me to believe this is a hoax. but neither can I say that this is the truth. I hold out hope that i can review the DVD and present an unbiased opinion.
shout it to the world mike

longhair .. go here ..razimus.com... and see the dinosaur pic section on Billy Meier.

Just goto to Google and you'll find hundreds of articles proving Billy Meier to be a fraud and Mr Horn is just a crony of Meiers. They don't deserve a second of publicity.

Did you notice how Mr Horn won't discuss the dinosaur pic proof ? or the alien girl pic proof of fraud ?

He usually just berates skeptics and then talks about other Meier topics .......... once a fraud always a fraud and make no mistake Billy Meier IS a proven fraud .... and a nutcase along with Mr Horn.

Well it looks like there's a discussion of sorts going on here, so maybe that's all that can be expected. As for my "invective", ya know I'm just a guy who occasionally gets tired of the "he's in it for the money" thing, when it's so nonsensical and absurd. Who do you know that "makes money" in this field, except for maybe all of the "abduction" nonsense people?

A couple of things, there's no one to sue, Underground Video doesn't exist (at least no one can find them since they posted their b.s. in the 1990s). And I wouldn't bother, if they exist let them sue, it would make a very interesting court case.

There's nothing avoided here on my part, perhaps I simply should've kept all the previous answers I posted for various skeptics such as, yes, there appear to be hoaxed photos but since Meier sent his photos out to a lab, it's not surprising that a handful - out of 1,200 - came back other than what they were.

Regarding not giving stuff away for free, I think that I've got nearly 30 articles and 1/2 dozen detailed newsletters, in addition to a few articles from Billy, and links to Deardorff and other sites, all done at my expense and free to you. You want more when you still haven't read, digested and understood all that? Kind of greedy and cheao at the same time. Well I invested in my own DVD, the research, travel and all costs associated with writing, narrating and producing it...as I've done with my music and my fitness tapes. Pay for it if you want it or complain like a bunch of amateurs, who, I assume, are probably mostly on salaries as opposed to risk-taking self-employed people like me. When I wanted all the books and videos on the case, like amything else, I bought them, end of that discussion.

If you review the answers and challenges I've given you you'll see that they were neither comprehended nor addressed. As a researcher, those aren't the kinds of responses I would make if I really wanted to know if something is true. If I had the stupid attitudes that some folks here have expressed I'd never KNOW for sure what the truth is, as those people never will, who are busy with trying to make important sounding arguments nstead of finding out if, how and why the case is true. Your loss, not mine.

Maybe this will be lost on all but a couple of people but when you go to that small Swiss village and you meet, and work side by side with, the people and you walk those steep roads and drive to the remote locations...you get a deep knowing that you, yourself, couldn't begin to do what this man did, and you certainly couldn't even fake it well enough to interest anyone for 6 minutes let alone 60 years.

If you have the self honesty, ask yourself if millions of people in 80 countries will one day be studying the exploits of YOUR life and debating it on the internet (or whatever exists in 60 years from now). Ask yourself if YOU'VE accomplished something (anything) so significant and controversial as to have warranted nearly two dozen attempts on your life and attracted thousands of people to come, uninvited into your home and rummage through your photos, etc.

Will you have made a real difference in this world or will you have just sat back, comfortable in the anonymity of a screen name, trying to pick apart something and someone obviously far beyond your comprehension? History is full of such naysayers who targeted those who came along to bust the status quo. And, in this day and age when people live virtual, vicarious lives, an authentic life, full of risk and uncertainty, is strenuously avoided.

But each person can choose to go beyond their comfort zone, their know-it-all attitudes, and decide at any moment to walk through an open door to another level of understanding, one that requires the utmost in self responsibility, completely absent childish demands that life and other people should do things the way they want it, the way that makes them comfortable.

That simply isn't how life works...or how self-responsible, truly powerful people live.

Will you have made a real difference in this world or will you have just sat back, comfortable in the anonymity of a screen name, trying to pick apart something and someone obviously far beyond your comprehension?

What, exactly, is beyond anyone's comprehension? You want people to believe. I say that belief is for deities and religion. I have no desire to be a "believer". I just want to know the truth. I also know that I'm not going to spend $30 for evidence of Billy Meier's claims, not because I am too cheap to learn the truth, but because I don't believe that your DVD is going to contain evidence of any more reliability than what's already known to the public.

Ask yourself if YOU'VE accomplished something (anything) so significant and controversial as to have warranted nearly two dozen attempts on your life and attracted thousands of people to come, uninvited into your home and rummage through your photos, etc.

I'm not the one claiming to have been visited by extraterrestrials, though, am I? I'm not the one selling evidence of my experience, am I? I'm not the one with a PR guy telling people to go investigate my claim by "walking the land" where I live, thus necessitating people to visit my home.

Just out of curiosity, how exactly would you have any idea of what other people have accomplished? At least all of my accomplishments, albeit far more mundane than having a 400 year old companion that's able to catch a "wink" from the eye of God, can be proven with unquestionable authenticity.



[edit on 11-12-2005 by Centrist]

The words "I believe" appears once in more than 3,000 pages of the Meier material when Ptaah says to Billy, "I believe that the name of the person in Austria that you're thinking of is..." So the one with beliefs is you.

You believe or don't believe that this or that, that a DVD or being here or there, will have no value for you. You believe that because someone spent his own money doing what others didn't have the time, interest or resources to do should be given away to you for free, if you even want it.

You believe you already "know" the truth and that there's no way that it is actually the opposite of what you believe. And somewhere you beleive that to buy a DVD is to lose, to surrender, to be proved wrong or to be bested. So you are, in a strange way, controllable.

I could place a bet with my friends and it would go like this.

"Hey, there's this anonymous guy (you know, an internet thing) that's involved in a debate over the Meier case and he thinks he really knows and/or wants to know the truth. I'll bet that he really doesn't, for reasons he himself isn't even aware of. Let's face it, the Meier case is either the biggest hoax or most important story in all of human history. So, you'd think that if someone REALLY wanted to know which it is, nothing would stand in their way, right? I mean nothing stood in my way when I wanted to know. I'll bet you guys that I can stop this guy cold in his tracks and show that the LAST thing he really wants to do is to find out that the case is true. And to prove it, I'm betting you guys anything you want that if I just tell him that he can find out by getting a DVD - for the grand total sum of $29 - the guy will absolutely find every way possible to refuse the offer."

And don't mistake this for a sales pitch, just a response that I could send to you and other people who are, frankly, rather transparent in their thinking and motives.

As far as how I would have any idea about your life...please note that I posed a question for you to contemplate, I didn't say I knew anything about your, or anyone else's life for certain.

And to prove it, I'm betting you guys anything you want that if I just tell him that he can find out by getting a DVD - for the grand total sum of $29 - the guy will absolutely find every way possible to refuse the offer.

It's rare that you read such a misguided and intellectually bankrupt theory. You still don't get it Michael. It's not that anybody wouldn't spend $29 if they believed it would tell the truth, it's that you've gotten so slanted in the way you present your "proof" and continuously obfuscate issues and avoid answering questions, that your credibility is virtually non-existant as an objective "researcher". In other words, I don't believe you. For that reason, your DVD is not something I can reasonably believe will present clear, authentic, objective facts that will assist me in drawing a conclusion as to the veracity of Mr. Meier's claims.

I fully expect that your DVD would be as full of unsupported assertions, questionable investigative techniques, and slanted interpretations of Mr. Meier's works that it would not be a useful research tool.

Get it?

You believe you already "know" the truth and that there's no way that it is actually the opposite of what you believe. And somewhere you beleive that to buy a DVD is to lose, to surrender, to be proved wrong or to be bested. So you are, in a strange way, controllable.

I doubt it. What kind of dimwit would that argument work on? If you believe I'm controllable, then aren't you trying to use use psychoanalysis as a tool for controlling me and convincing me that I'm somehow afraid to know the truth?

How about this. Give the world some evidence that Billy Meier's claims are true. Irrefutable, tangible, direct evidence.

I like you am self employed. I have been reviewing and investigating the UFO phenomena since the sixties. I have put my own time and money into it so I understand what you mean. The heartbreaking part of the whole thing is that the people with the least credulous claims end up soiling the water so to speak for those like myself who want answers no matter the truth. as for myself I would love to find that there are indeed other forms of life in our universe. Part of my investigations have taken me into realms of science where i had little or no knowledge of the subject. So I studied. It is my conclusion that there is indeed a very real chance that we are not alone. I always come back to one question though: why would they send manned craft? we dont. why? Its cheaper(or cost effective) and less risky. I want to know just what is going on. While its true that huge portions of sightings can be explained away there is still that one portion with no explanation.
I think that the pics with the dinos and the girls(the dean martin ones) are pretty unconvincing. The talmud Jmmanuel thats another story. I'm not ready to say this whole thing is a hoax. Billy may indeed believe he is telling the truth so it wouldn't be a hoax just an unproven story. A hoax is a willful scam. Shoot I've found multiple references to people beating lie detectors simply by totally believing they were being truthful. But lie detectors are not permited to be used in court.
In my forty years of investigation I have never once been asked to pay for anything by anyone who wanted to be taken seriously. The books were readily available(library) and anytime I wrote or phoned anyone they were more than willing to send me material that they had available. Some asked that i pay shipping which is reasonable. After all I had to put gas in my car to get to library so whats a stamp. Your the first in forty years to turn down my request. None of the others ever complained about how they put time and money into their propositions. I'm not saying your in it for the money. I have no idea why your in it. Maybe you do want to put the truth out there. Good. What I dont understand is your reluctance to have an independent unbiased review of it. The big movie companies dont charge movie critics even for the bad movies. In my years in radio I never had a record company ask me to pay to review their records. They showed up on my desk. And those companies spend billions on their products.
Why wont you let anyone examine the supposed alien metal? Is it because they want to charge you? IIG have stated that they would do it pro bono. Or maybe you wanted them to pay you.
Its been my experience that those who honestly want to get the information out there have no qualms about letting anyone see it. I would be happy to review your dvd and post a review here or anywhere else you would like.
Also I've never encountered any scientist who charged me for info. They were more than happy to discuss their research with me.
And I have a question. When you were at the meier place did you yourself see the UFOs or the Pleiadians?
Hopefully we can coninue this discussion because I have found it quite interesting and I have learned alot which is what I'm all about. Maybe there's somone out there that owns the dvd who can give us at the least an overview.

I clicked the link in the first post with great interest to learn about Bill Meier. But what a disappointment! after 10 years of internet, I can understand a hoax with the first few words I read. Here is why it is a hoax:

1) there is a document named 'proof beyond reasonable doubt', but they offer no such proof. They refer to some events claiming that Meier predicted them. But where is the video that Meier speaks about those prophecies? If 'proof beyond doubt' would exist, then it would be in the form of a video from the old times showing Meier in various phases of his life speaking about the future events.

2) there are products being sold from the posted websites.

3) all the future prophecies are accompanied by words like 'possible', 'maybe','propable' etc. If this guy is the prophet he says, then why the uncertainty?

4) there are no specific dates for prophecies. We all know a World War III is quite possible in the future, as well as big catastrophic events from earthquakes and asteroids. But we are no prophets.

5) the UFO photographs are completely fake.

It is a sad fact that we let charlatans like Bill Meier to stay in the surface. The future is untold, eitherwise the universe would not exist. The universe is deterministic, but we can affect its outcome by our decisions, because our decision making processes work at a higher level above the physical laws.

Furthermore, if extraterrestrials exist and they have the capability to fly to Earth, do you think that they will do so in tincans and be like puppies with big eyes? all of us please stop being so naive...

[edit on 11-12-2005 by masterp]

The following is a statement from Underground Video Inc. about the alleged photographs and stories of Billy Meier concerning the Pleiadian visitors he encountered.

BILLY MEIER EXPOSED!
Recently Underground Video began an in-depth inquiry into the most sensational UFO case in history. Our investigation first began as a supportive effort to verify the known fact of the Meier case to present the truth of alien-human contact to skeptics.

With the assistance of members from the Hollywood special effects team of the UltraMatrix Corporation we studied the Meier photographs and claims made by Meier's Talmud Jmmanuel, Genesis III Publishing, Light Years by Gary Kinder, The Pleiadian Connection by Randolf Winters, and the movie Contact. We also spent considerable time tracking the claims of "computer expert" and "Ph.D." Jim Dilettoso, as well as claims made through Michael Hesemann by Guido Moosbrugger from Meier's FIGU cult in Switzerland.

After six months of intense inquiry, with the assistance of cinematographers, physicists, and computer analysts from TotalResearch, we found the claims of the representatives of the Meier case to absolutely untrue. We discovered miniature models, and a variety of deceptive methods used to create this hoax. Additionally, an undercover "hidden camera" investigation penetrated the Meier cult in Switzerland, revealing irrefutable scientific evidence of FRAUD.

Underground Video was one of the foremost defenders of the Meier material. We are DISAPPOINTED to now learn the ENTIRE case is a hoax. Representations of any authenticity with regard to this case made by alleged scientific examination has proved to be totally unreliable and misleads the general public into believing a carefully fabricated lie. The persons who authenitcated the Meier case are not credible scientists nor investigators.

Any previous representations of authenticity of the Meier case in the Underground Video catalog should be ignored. Our findings will be presented to the Attorney General for possible prosecution for a Consumer Class Action Suit for Fraud. Underground Video will continue to make the Meier material available to investigators and the general public who desire to study the hoax and how it had been sold to the public for nearly 20 years.

Anyone who had previously purchased any Meier materials may write Underground Video to be included in a CONSUMER CLASS ACTION SUIT.

Underground Video
Meier Class Action Suit
PO BOX 527
Beverly Hills, CA 90213-0527



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Along with Underground Video's statement is a photograph showing one of Billy Meiers alleged Pleiadian beamships taken in 1981. After computer enhancement and careful scrutiny, it has been shown the Beamship is really a miniature model made out of an upside-down cake pan, disconnected copper hose fitting, a bracelet, carpet tacks and various other identifiable objects.

The Meier photograph of the beautiful Pleiadian alien, Semjase, turned out to be a photocopy of a model from a Sears Catalog. Another one of Meier's photographs, where he allegedly traveled into the future aboard a Pleiadian Beamship to photograph the aftermath of a 9.0 earthquake in San Francisco showing the toppled Trans-America building, turned out to be a realistic looking painting from a geology magazine article about earthquakes. On top of these damning examples, every single one of Billy Meier's photographs of Pleiadian ships have been shown to be of third, fourth and even fifth generation(photographs of photographs) This means the he likely airbrushed suspension wires and other signs of fraud. There is not one example of an original, first generation Billy Meier photograph. On top of that, it has been shown that the reflections on some of the Pleiadian ships are not consistent with the position of the sun, indicating possible superimposition techniques. To top it off, a reporter found a bunch of miniature models exactly matching many of the Pleiadian ships shown in his photos. His ex-wife has come out to denounce him as a fraud as well. The evidence is overwhelming that whole Billy Meier story is unquestionably, absolutely, completely and totally 100% BOGUS. Case Closed!

Billy Meier and his cohorts, have made a lot of money out of this scam. I applaud Underground Video for seeking the truth about the Billy Meier scam and disassociating itself from any involvement with Meier. Billy Meier has done more to hurt the legitimate field of UFO research than any other person alive today. It's really a shame.

Michael Taylor

Mr horn
Thanks for sharing alot of info with us.
im pretty new to this forum carry on,but have learnt alot just studying your website etc and reading the previous well argued posts.
but there are a few things i need to know.
firstly if the aliens know all and see all and predict more or less the end of the world as we know it very soon and n.w.o?
then why dont they just step in to help us.
Secondly why havent they let themselves known to more people,people in position of influence and power.
Im not saying youre not correct as there has to be some truth in it.

Sorry to intrude on your thread Centrist.

Mr. Horn could you come over to the thread www.abovetopsecret.com... and shed some light on some questions concerning Mr. Meier?