U.S. Forces "Incompetent"

The often outspoken Governor of Tokyo, Shintaro Ishihara has yet again grabbed the headlines in Japan. In this case, he attacks what he calls U.S. "incompetence" among their armed forces and cites their inability to win in any conflict against China.



One thing that Ishihara can never be accussed of is being less than frank. The Governer and the Japanese population's feelings in general towards the U.S. forces based in Japan are well known to be frosty.

However this recent speech made by the Governer while on a trip to the U.S. may be indicitave of a shift in feelings towards the U.S. in Asia in general. With Japan looking to boost their military abilities and Chinese military expansion already well under way the U.S. may have to reconsider it's role in the region.

It also brings up a topic surely to raise the heckles of the hawks in the U.S. administration. While the suppossed unquestioned superiority of their military machine can be seen as a deterrant in most cases, it is a worrisome sign when allies and potential foes alike show such a lack of confidence in their abilities.

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[edit on 9-11-2005 by asala]

Excellent post.

Japan would have much to gain from a covert betrayal of their relationship with the US, say, in the event of a Chinese sub launch against the US coast. Perhaps in the exchange, China loses all the cities east of Xian (which the CCP generals publically state they are willing to do) and Japan emerges unscathed. At that time, perhaps a Chinese-Japanese pan-asian front could take the west coast.

Or maybe globalism will just keep on moving forward and all this war talk will fade away.

This is saber rattling over oil and money.

China is moving into a modern society really for the first time in recent history and she is flexing her muscles.

Yes China is a very powerfull country, but will she risk it all?

If war ever breaks out between China and the United States, do you think either country will hold back any weapons.

It will be a total loss for both countries.

Like I said earlier, do you think China will risk loosing everything.

I do not.

One thing the United States has going for her is that we have weapons all over the globe, in the air, underwater and more than likley in orbit.

China might be able to strike first, but it will all be over within hours, CONUS will be a dust bowl, but the responce will be the same for any country that attacks the United States with nuclear weapons.

Now I do see China moving into her neighboring countries as a land grab for natural resources and political control, but not against a NATO member country.

And what country in the world would stand up against China if she started a land grab in Asia?

Yes I would say the US, but it would be a terrible war, one I do not want to see ever, and I think everone in the world feels the same.

Sorry for rambling,

Maybe China feels she now can pay back Japan for the crimes committed in WWII, and I am sure the Chinese people are still pissed and this could be the reason China is provoking Japan over oil.

Now you might see a limited war in the waters between China and Japan over oil. And this would be a good fight.

China knows Japan has no Nukes so China can attack Japan without worring about lossing millions of civilians, but Japan has had 50+ years of technology and on her side and I am undesided on which side would prevail. Modern weapons and the best supplies money can buy, or being over run by millions of soliders and limited technology but on a mass scale.

I still think it's a no win for either side.

I hope this never happens.

It is a big mistake to think the Chinese army is great and unbeatable, it simply isn't. Read this article: China - The Illusion of Military Power

The Chinese do have lots of troops, but they are poorly trained, and there is a lot of corruption in both the military and the gov't.

I'm not taking any stand on how the US would fare in a war against China, I believe there's already some threads on that, but I will say that Ishihara is a notorious idiot and nothing he says should be taken too seriously. Japanese Chinese and Koreans are scum, the Nanjing massacre never occured, and old women without functioning reproductive systems are useless, according to his previous public comments.

He has also advocated:

Rounding up foreigners into detainment camps during an earthquake, because foreigners would run loose and riot in such an event.

Using the military to prepare for mass abortions after the mass-rapings which he assumed would occur by foreigners who would travel to Japan during the last World Cup.

The list probably goes on, but basically this guy is a nationalist who relies on the shock value of his statements for popularity.



[edit on 9-11-2005 by koji_K]

China knows Japan has no Nukes so China can attack Japan without worring about lossing millions of civilians, but Japan has had 50+ years of technology and on her side and I am undesided on which side would prevail. Modern weapons and the best supplies money can buy, or being over run by millions of soliders and limited technology but on a mass scale.

I see what you are saying. Personally, I cannot believe that the Japanese are defenseless against Chinese nukes. I mean that culture is all about warfare, and espionage is not unknown to them. I have the feeling their R&D has probably turned up something innovative which the Chinese may not have sussed out.

One key question is how strong China's spies are in Japan. If they're as successful as the Chinese spies in the US, that doesn't bode well, but perhaps the Japanese, being asian, are less vulnerable to asian-espionage?

In any case, I think this Japanese man is underestimating the fighting spirit of the average American. If there is ever a foreign entity on US soil, they will suffer under many thousands of snipers, that's for sure. The main question is: what resources will be left for the American who has to defend their home soil?

Seems to me like the US is pretty much being eroded by it's own politicans just fine. China need only sit back and wait.

Originally posted by SIRR1


Maybe China feels she now can pay back Japan for the crimes committed in WWII, and I am sure the Chinese people are still pissed and this could be the reason China is provoking Japan over oil.

Pissed? Damn right we're pissed. My grandfather still tells me stories of how the Japanese came into his town and dampened old ladies with oil and lit them on fire. He told me of how the Japanese would force people to drink so much oil that their stomach expanded and then the soldiers would step forcilly down on the stomache. There are many more sick stories that you have to wonder how the Chinese cannot be pissed.

Interesting to see how the original topic devolved into a China vs. Japan or China vs. US thread.

While idiot Ishihara is as regular as Yellowstone's Ol' Faithful at spewing crap, he is representative of a growing section of the Japanese community who are more serious and right-wing regards Japan's role in the region.

By publicly inferring that he thinks the Chinese would win any large scale conflict in the region, he is indicating a very worrisome paradigm shift in Japanese thinking. Worrisome for the U.S. that is.

So if we can get away from the blowhard "ye'll never take America" and "What ye did to my Grandpappy" line of thought maybe we could consider the following interesting questions.

1. What if Japan chose to ally itself with China rather than the U.S.?

In Japan, Bush's America is as popular as a wet fart in an elevator (never mind the rest of the world), a country where the less-than-gracious victors of WWII still have them under thumb to this day.

While their history with China is less than starry, would they have more to gain by hitching themselves to China's rising star, before the U.S. comes crashing back down to Earth? They have links in business, langauge and culture. Why give that all up when they could team up and give America a black eye?

Also take into mind that one of the main roots of Japanese Imperial Expansion in the 1930's was the colonisation of those areas by America and Europe. What if instead of wasting resources fighting each other, the Asian block of Japan, China and India got together? Who could possibly vex them into dropping their differences and forming an Alliance? I wonder.....

2. Japan quite possibly already has Nuclear Weapons.

If they don't have them sitting in silos somewhere already, they already have enough nuclear material, rocket engines and the technical know-how to knock together a good few in a short time. If N. Korea can do it, I'm pretty sure Japan can as well.

3. U.S. Forces aren't as ominpotent as the movies tell you.

Just because the movies always turn out well in the end doesn't mean it happens in real life. I have heard enough anecdotal evidence to seriously question the abilities of the US armed forces.

I also note the gent who claims that under invasion some sort of Mel Gibson "Patriot" type situation would arise. First off, there is no precedence for an invasion so you have no idea what would happen.

Secondly, judging from the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, when your citzen's backs were against the wall, did they bravely band together to get the job done or did it descend into anarchy and the law of the jungle. I have little doubt the "Me-Me-Me" generation of the most selfish country on the planet would do what they do best - Look out for themselves.

Again I do not think either China or the US would "win" in a war. Neither country alone could actually hope on taking any land. With allies on both sides it would just expand more.

A war betwen china and the US we both most definatley loose.

As for what would happen in a invasion on US soil. From my experiences and from history most likely major cities that were attacked would collapse into anarchy with a few "freedom fighters" (or terrorists to occupiers). In larger cities people really are taught to look out for themselves and do WHATEVER it takes to make sure THEY get ahead. It isnt something taught in school but rather taught because those are the types of people that do get ahead more then not.

Smaller cities would most likely fold easily. Most smaller cities are notorious for the people not actually owning weapons. While some may want to fight back overall their ability to do so wouldnt be that great.

Rural areas however normally still hold a quite strong sense of community, largely own and know very well how to use multiple weapons.

Holding and controlling a large city for occupiers in the US (or most places) - Damn near impossible

Small Cities - Much Easier

Rural Areas - Easy to hold , Impossible to control.

Originally posted by k4rupt

Originally posted by SIRR1
Maybe China feels she now can pay back Japan for the crimes committed in WWII, and I am sure the Chinese people are still pissed and this could be the reason China is provoking Japan over oil.

Pissed? Damn right we're pissed. My grandfather still tells me stories of how the Japanese came into his town and dampened old ladies with oil and lit them on fire. He told me of how the Japanese would force people to drink so much oil that their stomach expanded and then the soldiers would step forcilly down on the stomache. There are many more sick stories that you have to wonder how the Chinese cannot be pissed.

Who hasn't got a "bad, evil, nasty Japs" story from WW2. They completely ignored the Geneva convention and used POWs as slave labour, working and starving them to death in Thailand. In their thousands.

Or there's the Bataan death march.

Or the comfort women.

The difference is that we've gotten over it.

My grandmother's cousin was a POW in Japan, he looked like an Auschwitz prisoner when he was liberated. There were Aussie soldiers stationed in Japan as part of BCOF who married Japanese ladies and brought them back to Australia in the 40s and 50s.

Two of my best mates are married to Japanese chicks.

You lot seem to be able to ignore the 14 official apologies Japanese leaders have made to China for the atrocities of WW2 and keep demanding an "official apology".

It was 60 years ago. They were tried, found guilty and executed. Get over it. The rest of us have.

The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution killed many, many more people than the Japanese did. And those two examples of pure genius were authored by Chinese.

This "Governor" or whoever he might be should shut his mouth! talking about U.S.A Forces Incompentent "HA" what a fool! no i mean "NO" other country has the best trained and well takencareoff military force in the "World"

I think China will be too busy focusing internally as its economy expands and the pressures of democratisation increase from its own population.
Regarding Japan there seems to be a rising level of nationalism being shown currently and i am unsure how this will pan out in the future.

I don't think China will attack the US, their economy is too much dependent on export mainly to western countries.
What China needs to further expand is natural resources, like oil, which can be found in Russia and the Mid-East, I think they'd go there first.

I think Japan expanding it’s Military power would be a good thing for the US, and a worrying situation for China. Also, I think the possibility of China and Japan allying is virtually nonexistent.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I think the possibility of China and Japan allying is virtually nonexistent.

What if they were given a choice of being forcefully annexed or joining an alliance?

I have met a good few Japanese service men and I don't imagine they would be up to much against a determined, hungry and numerous invasion force.

All it would take would be for the US to be distracted elsewhere and........

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
1. What if Japan chose to ally itself with China rather than the U.S.?

In Japan, Bush's America is as popular as a wet fart in an elevator (never mind the rest of the world), a country where the less-than-gracious victors of WWII still have them under thumb to this day.

While their history with China is less than starry, would they have more to gain by hitching themselves to China's rising star, before the U.S. comes crashing back down to Earth? They have links in business, langauge and culture. Why give that all up when they could team up and give America a black eye?

Also take into mind that one of the main roots of Japanese Imperial Expansion in the 1930's was the colonisation of those areas by America and Europe. What if instead of wasting resources fighting each other, the Asian block of Japan, China and India got together? Who could possibly vex them into dropping their differences and forming an Alliance? I wonder.....

I am sorry, but this is just not going to happen. China wants nothing to do with Japan, and Japan nothing to do with China.

You speak of the US coming back to earth, but what of China. You act as if the US is the one in an out of the ordinary economic boom.

The US is at a normal state. We have been this wealthy for half a century. China is the one in the clouds right now, and if you study economics, you'd understand that they can not hope to keep this up. Much like Japan before them, China is going to hit a wall, and fall big time.

And Japan giving up an American alliance for one with China because of "links in business, langauge and culture"?

Have you seen the links in buisness that Japan and the US have? They far out do any that Japan and China have. Language? What exactly does Japanese and Chinese share, other then funny sounding words to westerners? As for culture, the only thing they share is a distaste for each other.

The thing here is that Japan is much more serious about confronting China then the US is - well, at least the US public. The remarks made are meant to get the US into the same frame of mind. Japan wants China"taken care of" by the US, because China oses a HUGE threat to Japan. China could very well sieze control of the whole asia region, and that is something that Japan wants to prevent.

2. Japan quite possibly already has Nuclear Weapons.

If they don't have them sitting in silos somewhere already, they already have enough nuclear material, rocket engines and the technical know-how to knock together a good few in a short time. If N. Korea can do it, I'm pretty sure Japan can as well.

What?

Japan is now a nuclear power in your mind?

This is laughable. You speak of a large technological base for nuclear weapons, but please - tell me - exactly what home grown rocket, space, or nuclear technology do they have? Exactly what nuclear weapons programs do they have? How much money have they spent in research?

Frankly, they have none.

3. U.S. Forces aren't as ominpotent as the movies tell you.

Just because the movies always turn out well in the end doesn't mean it happens in real life. I have heard enough anecdotal evidence to seriously question the abilities of the US armed forces.

If US forces are so bad, then what does that make Chinas? They have a fraction of the training and resources that US soldiers do.

On top of all this, you are ignoring the two most critical aspects of conventional warfare - logistics and controling the high ground.

What logistical resources does China have? Next to none. They don't have the logistics to take Taiwan, much less mount any full scale war with Japan - much less the US.

And how exactly does anyone expect to challange US air power? You have to be able to take on US air dominance, and frankly, China is putting out copies of 30 year old US aircraft which are going out of service. That of course is to say nothing of our huge technological edge over Japan and China.

I also note the gent who claims that under invasion some sort of Mel Gibson "Patriot" type situation would arise. First off, there is no precedence for an invasion so you have no idea what would happen.

Invasion

Now the US is being invaded?

Exactly how is anyone getting a full army to the US?

Secondly, judging from the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, when your citzen's backs were against the wall, did they bravely band together to get the job done or did it descend into anarchy and the law of the jungle. I have little doubt the "Me-Me-Me" generation of the most selfish country on the planet would do what they do best - Look out for themselves.

Frankly, your post is laughable.

Any war between the US and ANYONE would be waged on THEIR land because the US in the only nation in the world with the logistical base to wage a global war.

So I ask YOU, exactly how would the Chinese respond to B-52's raining bombs on their home land day or night?

How would the Chinese respond to having patriot missles targeting every high value target in China?

Ijust love how you question US forces and at the same time don't tink about how bad that would make every other military in the world.

Frankly, your theories on this subject are a joke

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
2. Japan quite possibly already has Nuclear Weapons.

If they don't have them sitting in silos somewhere already, they already have enough nuclear material, rocket engines and the technical know-how to knock together a good few in a short time. If N. Korea can do it, I'm pretty sure Japan can as well.

What?

Japan is now a nuclear power in your mind?

This is laughable. You speak of a large technological base for nuclear weapons, but please - tell me - exactly what home grown rocket, space, or nuclear technology do they have? Exactly what nuclear weapons programs do they have? How much money have they spent in research?

Frankly, they have none.

Agreed. About Nukes. But Japan have a very healthy aerospace sector. Remember that only one country has suffered nuclear attack. That kinda makes them virulently anti-nuke.

So I ask YOU, exactly how would the Chinese respond to B-52's raining bombs on their home land day or night?

They'd probably shoot the slow, lumbering beasts out of the sky with impunity and far more ease than the Vietnamese did. And they didn't exactly find it hard. Do you know how many combat jets the PLAAF has? Let alone SAMs.

How would the Chinese respond to having patriot missles targeting every high value target in China?

With incredulity, I would suggest. The Patriot is an ABM, an anti-ballistic missile missile. It's only job is to shoot down attacking missiles.

If, however, you meant something like Tomahawk, which is a cruise missile, that would be different. Probably with rage, a lot like the Iraqis in '91.

Ijust love how you question US forces and at the same time don't tink about how bad that would make every other military in the world.

Frankly, your theories on this subject are a joke

I love how you denigrate all forces but your own. The US are not the best military in the world. They cannot fight asymmetric conflicts, that has been proven twice before and is being proven at the moment.

In the event of war China can mobilise and arm 100% of its adult population of military age. That's what the People's Auxilliary Forces are for.

China's military might be a joke to you, but it is rapidly catching up, and unlike the US, it's main infantry weapon doesn't jam and needs no servicing. It may not be able to travel and its technology may be lagging behind, but it would make occupation far more painful than Iraq currently is.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Or the comfort women.

The was a horrible its estimated that some 200,000 women most of which were Korean were forced into sexual slavery as these so called "Comfort women" many of the now elderly surviving comfort women suffer from physical and emotional problems to this day.

Japan has never accepted legal responsibility for the crimes against humanity it perpetrated against former comfort women.

A very sad chapter in human history

www.chineseholocaust.org...

Thank you for your lovely post American Mad Man!

HowlrunnerIV sadly beat me to the punch about some of your schoolboy howlers, but let's talk about a few others.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I am sorry, but this is just not going to happen. China wants nothing to do with Japan, and Japan nothing to do with China.

Well, talking about laughable. This is a statement coming from someone who believes that:

What exactly does Japanese and Chinese share, other then funny sounding words to westerners? As for culture, the only thing they share is a distaste for each other.

If the extent of your Asian knowledge is "funny sounding words" then you are hardly qualified to comment on what these two countries might do. Remember the Cold War? Remember all those Allies the US had, who they had a distaste for? Like the Taliban for instance? But, needs be, in that situation you rose above your distaste for them and got together for the (your) common good.

You speak of the US coming back to earth, but what of China. You act as if the US is the one in an out of the ordinary economic boom.

I hear some strange music playing in the background....

The US is at a normal state. We have been this wealthy for half a century. China is the one in the clouds right now, and if you study economics, you'd understand that they can not hope to keep this up.

Hmmmm.....sticks little finger in the corner of mouth a la Dr. Evil.......

Wealthy. Yes. I am assuming you got your degree in economics the same place you did your diploma on Asian culture. I hope you haven't any money invested or too many credit card loans. You may be in for a rude shock sometime soon.

Have you seen the links in buisness that Japan and the US have? They far out do any that Japan and China have.

Whoops. I'd check your facts again, skippy!

However, you did make one excellent point:

The thing here is that Japan is much more serious about confronting China then the US is - well, at least the US public. The remarks made are meant to get the US into the same frame of mind. Japan wants China"taken care of" by the US, because China oses a HUGE threat to Japan. China could very well sieze control of the whole asia region, and that is something that Japan wants to prevent.

Very good point. The Japanese really would like the Chinese threat taken care of and goading the US into doing it for them is probably their #1 priority. Rather the dirty gaijin die for us than we doing it ourselves. Failing that, I have no doubt that Japan will choose the winning side should any conflict arise. While still doing business with the other side of course!

Japan is now a nuclear power in your mind?

This is laughable. You speak of a large technological base for nuclear weapons, but please - tell me - exactly what home grown rocket, space, or nuclear technology do they have?

I live in Japan and I know their attitude to the "rules" of Western society. If they can do something, say prostitution, gambling, etc., they will. While they are telling you they are not. They have novel ways of gettnig around the rules. I dare say they have found novel ways around not having any nuclear weapons.

Now, yet again, you think it is laughable. They have a space program, they have home grown rocket technology (I live not so far away from where they build the rocket engines for their H2 rocket) and they have a very sizable nuclear technology sector, reactors, etc. I know you are probably stuck in the fugue that Japan is still full of people wearing pointy hats and using oxen to work their paddy fields and the very notion that anyone other than the US is superior in any way is offensive to you. If it helps you sleep at night....

What logistical resources does China have? Next to none. They don't have the logistics to take Taiwan, much less mount any full scale war with Japan - much less the US.

Sure the US has some awesome logistical abilities, but aren't you spread pretty thin right now? If you pull logistics from elsewhere will the whole house of cards fall down?

And how exactly does anyone expect to challange US air power?........

Oh, here we go. Take the chest-beating elsewhere please.....

Invasion

Now the US is being invaded?

Someone else posited that. I think it is frankly impossible as well. Look! We CAN agree on some things!!

Secondly, judging from the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, when your citzen's backs were against the wall, did they bravely band together to get the job done or did it descend into anarchy and the law of the jungle. I have little doubt the "Me-Me-Me" generation of the most selfish country on the planet would do what they do best - Look out for themselves.

Frankly, your post is laughable.

I am still interested to hear what you have to say about this statement however. With your amazing logistic base spread thin, all it would take would be a little internal strife at home and -BOOM- China would be so on you and you could do nothing about it.

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
The was a horrible its estimated that some 200,000 women most of which were Korean were forced into sexual slavery............

If this discussion had anything to do with comfort women then I would agree with you, but it doesn't so, go look for one of the many J-bashing threads in PTS and we will talk about it.

One point, will people still be harping on about the use of DU rounds by the US and their horrific effects on millions and future generations (more perverse and horrific than a few thousand women being raped) in 60 years time? I doubt it. You see, shift the focus and shift the blame tactics in effect again.