Looks like XM-8 will be put on hold

The purpose of this Amendment is to CANCEL Solicitation W15QKN-05-R-0449, OICW Increment One.

This action has been taken in order for the Army to reevaluate its priorites for small caliber weapons, and to incorporate emerging requirements identified during Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom. The Government will also incorporate studies looking into current capability gaps during said reevaluation.

Link


Thank god, I hope they at least opt for 6.5 or 6.8mm . Special Ops really like 6.8mm , so it must not be that bad.

Isnt the OICW a completely different weapon?

edit: nm, TY NW, Im retarded

[edit on 3-11-2005 by PlausibleDeniability]

A reader tipped me off to this amendment to the solicitation for the OICW Increment 1, which the XM8 and other assault rifle systems were competing for.

Humans today can't hardly see a thing past 100-150m. Humans of the 1940's couldn't hardly see a thing past 400m.
Humans of the 1910's couldn't see a thing past 1,000m.

As we leave behind our bucholic farmboy roots and become more sedate and paperish in our principal work and recreational activities, the acuity of our vision decreases even as the /capability/ (trajectories and 'windage' response as much as penetration) of our weapons goes up.

With this in mind, the only reason to engage a point target at distances for which a 5.56mm vs. a 6.5mm or 6.8mm are 'determinative' (mags carried vs. kills per clip) on a caliber ballistics basis is if you do not have a powered optics, stabilized post, robotic-weapon on a militarized golfcart able to snap-attack faster, better, further, for you. Probably with 12.7mm or above.

Indeed, even in the area of ranged fires and killing capability, the XM8 is no better than any of the other, 'cheaper', candidates because it doesn't incoporate the 20mm over-obstacle cued detonation grenade system of the original XM25.

Which is probably a good thing if you are fighting in a FIBUA conditions and the temptation is to frag down every rooftop for the sniper that just killed Louie.

In any case, you _do not want_ a round that exits the barrel at 3,000fps and travels half a mile downrange out of a clumsy, 25-in-a-30rd, under-receiver magazine, that you must deaim to reload.

You'll butcher granny crossing the street behind her shopping cart 10 blocks down but you'll run out of ammo before you instant-on suppress a /guessed at/ point source of the guy shooting 4 blocks down ahead of her.

Instead, you want a round that comes out at 1,500-1,800fps. Is about 10mm so it /hurts/ what it hits and is carried in a 50-100rd clip over the barrel so that the problem with prone firing over a ventral mag and maneuvering a long rifled barrel in tight quarters goes permanently away.

i.e. You want a submachinegun with good grouping controllability (sliding receiver group to minimize felt recoil per burst) and good single round point accuracy under 100m.

Especially where you are the occupier, you cannot count on being the 'surpriser' and that is where long range and caliber overmatch on penetration counts.

The Snakeeaters can have whatever they want, they always do.

But the mech-supported infantry should be asking for automated posted weapons that engage using the full gamut of sniper finder acoustic and high gain TI sights which we cannot afford to hand out to individual soldiers even in our own forces.

Whether that mount be used for a Mk.19 replacement with prox fuzed grenades or a heavy caliber LMG with SPR capable single round accuracies, it's principle application will be to defeat Sniper, RCL, LAW and light Mortar lob fires from BEYOND direct LOS distances. As in AfG ridglines and Najaf Mosque windows.

While a return to rapid acting obscurrant and incapacitant use (also off light mech supported carriage) will do more to save lives than anything remotely associated with the individual rifleman and his 'preferred weapon' of LOMD choice.


CONCLUSION:
Bigger Bullet, Yes.
More Rounds on Weapon, Yes.
More Accuracy In Autofire, Yes.
Reach/Lethality over 100-150m, _NO_.


KPl.

A simple solution might just be a different type of 5.56mm . I saw this smart material bullet on the History Channel. The materials it's made of senses when it hits metal and stays in an armor-piercing shape. But when it hits flesh it senses it and sort of blows up causing a lot of damage. Which is more likely to kill someone then the type of rounds they're using now. Which is exactly what they are looking for, more killing power.

[edit on 4-11-2005 by NWguy83]

Originally posted by NWguy83
A simple solution might just be a different type of 5.56mm . I saw this smart material bullet on the History Channel. The materials it's made of senses when it hits metal and stays in an armor-piercing shape. But when it hits flesh it senses it and sort of blows up causing a lot of damage. Which is more likely to kill someone then the type of rounds they're using now. Which is exactly what they are looking for, more killing power.

[edit on 4-11-2005 by NWguy83]

It's called blended metal body. From all I've read, it's a pretty nasty...

1-shot killer
This 5.56mm round has all the stopping power you need
— but you can’t use it. Here’s why:

By John G. Roos
Editor, Armed Forces Journal

Ben Thomas and three colleagues were driving north out of Baghdad in an SUV on a clear mid-September morning, headed down a dirt road into a rural village, when gunmen in several surrounding buildings opened fire on them.

In a brief but intense firefight, Thomas hit one of the attackers with a single shot from his M4 carbine at a distance he estimates was 100 to 110 yards.

He hit the man in the buttocks, a wound that typically is not fatal. But this round appeared to kill the assailant instantly.
“It entered his butt and completely destroyed everything in the lower left section of his stomach ... everything was torn apart,” Thomas said.

Thomas, a security consultant with a private company contracted by the government, recorded the first known enemy kill using a new — and controversial — bullet.

The bullet is so controversial that if Thomas, a former SEAL, had been on active duty, he would have been court-martialed for using it. The ammunition is “nonstandard” and hasn’t passed the military’s approval process.

Rest is at Armed Forces Journal.

Just wish the video worked...

Why is it controversial? Because it kills with one shot?

On the same History Channel program they were talking about how law enforcement snipers would like to use this bullet, because it would eliminate the over penetration of most sniper bullets. This type of bullet expands 360 degrees once it penetrates flesh, so it does not come out the other side.

Also, I hope they don't eliminate the XM8 altogether, I think its a good multipurpose weapons.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Why is it controversial? Because it kills with one shot?

On the same History Channel program they were talking about how law enforcement snipers would like to use this bullet, because it would eliminate the over penetration of most sniper bullets. This type of bullet expands 360 degrees once it penetrates flesh, so it does not come out the other side.

Yor are talking about a 'frang' bullet, thats not the same type I am talking about.

I’m talking about the bullet that they fired on the show.
They placed a metal sheet in front of some meat and fired this round. It cleanly penetrated the metal sheet, but once it hit the meat it expanded inside of it completely destroying it.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
I’m talking about the bullet that they fired on the show.
They placed a metal sheet in front of some meat and fired this round. It cleanly penetrated the metal sheet, but once it hit the meat it expanded inside of it completely destroying it.

No offense, but you obviously don't remember the entire show. They fired a couple different bullets. The one I am talking about is not the frang bullet. The frang bullet doesn't explode in flesh, it just sort of disintegrates.

[edit on 6-11-2005 by NWguy83]

So what new assault weapons will be adopted by the world then?

US - FN SCAR is the only one so far, and perhaps the "new" M14 SOCOM rifle.
Germany - Who knows, they have G-36 for a while now.
France - OICW clone of some sort, can't remember name
Australia - AICW, another OICW clone
Belgium - FN-2000, already gaining popularity around the world.
Russia - AN-94 for starters
Israel - IMI Tavor TAR-21

Still no major projects there, the AN-94's operation is interestings and it's 2 round burst mode, the AICW and FN-2000 seem promising.

There is also this other gun I saw on another forum, can't remember the name, it was kinda like a P-90 with a Grenade launcher, Metal Storm I believe.

I'm going to disagree with limiting range of engagement. Your opponent would simply stay out of range, with rifles that have greater range. This lesson was learned in WW2. German sub-machine guns are a poor choice for primary weapon.

Your enemy opponent will typically be spotted and engaged at 500 to 600 yards. Usually because he's started firing. To not fire back, because you don't have the range, is a very bad idea.

I'm reading news that says the project is on hold, till lessons learned in Afganistan and Iraq, and other places, are incorporated into the decision process.

OICW-1 Canceled, Door Closes on XM-8 For Now

On July 22, 2005, DID reported that the U.S. Army had temporarily suspended the Request for Proposal (RFP) for the acquisition of a new family of small weapons - Objective Individual Combat Weapon Increment 1 (OICW-1)...Pentagon reconsiders its plans in light of lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan.

[edit on 12-11-2005 by ZPE StarPilot]

Originally posted by NWguy83
Special Ops really like 6.8mm , so it must not be that bad.

I would hope they liked it since a US Special Operations soldier designed the 6.8mm SPC. I really a far better round then the 5.56 in terms of terminal ballistics against humans.

The 20mm Airburst grenade used in the OICW M-29 ran into issues not being lethal enough as they hoped. Something I never heard anyone say about the 40mm Grenade

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
The 20mm Airburst grenade used in the OICW M-29 ran into issues not being lethal enough as they hoped. Something I never heard anyone say about the 40mm Grenade

Thats why they increased to 25mm for the XM25.

Well, I guess the US will stick with AR-15 based rifles then.

I hope they atleast upgrade to the AK style gas-stroke system or whatever it's called...

Two ideal choices acutally would be several options, first, you could upgrade totally to the H&K 416/417 rifles, basically an improvement over the standard M16/M4 series, it basically does what h&k did for the SA-80 to the M16, changing several key parts of the upper reciver and operating mechanism to make it a LOT more reliable.
secondly, theres the Barett upper reciever, which is also a possible choice to easily make the rifle more reliable, ro you can go back to the XM-8.
really, theres just quite afew open choices out there.

I for one am glad that the XM-8 is being put on the back burner. I looks to much like a toy.

Originally posted by punkmonkey14
I for one am glad that the XM-8 is being put on the back burner. I looks to much like a toy.

dats wat most people say wen the M-16 was first introduced. aka the Black Rifle. and look where the M-16 is right now decades later.

Im sort of glad too, The XM-8 looks more like a stupid sci fi movie gun or somthing. I know the pulse rifle of aliens is too but i think the armys new assault rifle should look more like that one instead.

There have been a lot of cut backs recently. The RAH-66 Commanche, The Air Force F-35 variant, Maybe the F/A-22, and now this stupid plastic rifle.

I still like the OICW though. Is the German Army going to use this too after Hechler Und Koch were involved developing the weapon?

[edit on 21-11-2005 by Browno]

Like Delta boy said, poeple would think the M16 looks like a bb gun, people dont think that now do they? i think the problem is people are just unwilling to accept things that look radical, so what that it looks diffrent? are you going to judge a book by its cover?