How can the US Complain about Chinese Military Bulidup?

Originally posted by snafu7700
the funny thing is, the adverserial views that are shared between the US and china are the US's fault. we had a perfect opportunity in WWII to make china a partner for the future, but we blew it by backing the wrong side of your civil war. and for the stupidist reasons....fear of communism. we did the same thing in vietnam. ho chi minh only embraced communism when we left him hanging out to dry after supporting him against the japanese in wwII.

I couldn't agree more with that.

@ psteel

and dream up new enemies all the time...enough for one in every closet

Doesn't that fit america perfectly

Well it's hardly a secret that both armys are preparing weapons againt eachother... And yeah, I'am wondering about the same question as seekerof, who is complaining...??

Originally posted by chinawhite

When you respond to a thread you tend to read the thread before responding.

The first thing you do is read ALL of the post

so again since you have read the article, then answer the question: who is complaining?

4.1 percent is the total figure china spends on everything.

i guess you can believe the party line if you want to....but most of the rest of the world recognizes BS when it sees it. again, i'll refer you to this article.

Im sorry but i cant find anything

Maybe a quote is in order

sure.

this was the original quote that started the debate:

Originally posted by k4rupt
I wonder if the US would complain if China built an air base in Cuba that had the ability to drop bombs in any US City within hours...

then the rest:

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
a link to confirm that the us has nothng in Taiwan.

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
I'm not saying that there is or isn't but when people claim something they should be able t back it up. However I will giv you the benefit of the doubt on this one.

However, does that include US naval assets as well? Are you absulutely sure that the US has no nautical military vessels in the area?

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
if there are naval units then those count as military units thus America has a military pressence in or near Taiwan. Point proven.

chinawhite, please explain how you go from military bases to naval vessels being military bases? as i said, that would mean that china has military bases off the coast of the US as we speak.




[edit on 5-11-2005 by snafu7700]

[edit on 5-11-2005 by snafu7700]

[edit on 5-11-2005 by snafu7700]

woops sorry, I wasn't think straight. You are right.

Originally posted by snafu7700

ahh, yes. it all boils down to jealousy in the end, doesnt it? america has more of this and more of that. instead of whining and moaning about what we have worked our butts off for over the years, why dont you complain to your own government and ask them why you arent as well off as we are?

Do we call anyone on this forum anti-Russian or anti Iraqi or for that matter anti-Chinese? Why is it that when people comment on American actions it is some strange kind of 'jealously' but talking about any other countries atrocities it's rarely frowned upon and certainly never dismissed by any number of people as anti anything? What i find even stranger is that some people consider American riches as something earned or worked for by average Americans and not something taken from others by their government. That really is the kicker for me given the volumes of information showing how the system works.

jealousy of what we have in america is the root of about 50% of the anti-america threads here, and its getting ridiculous.

What do Americans have that makes them feel so special that they may demand an entirely different set of principles for their actions on the world stage. Please clarify why Americans and their government should not adhere to the same rules ( and for that matter suffer the same penalties for breaking them) as the rest of us.

if you have something productive to say, say it. but dont cry and whine simply because you dont have what we do.

Well many of these so called anti-Americans have offered much information but what does information matter when it is not looked at based on the premise that it's all somehow cleverly constructed fabrications to attack the standing of America in the world? Why will every rumour and lie be believed about countries like Iran and North Korea but when something even marginally hurtfull is said about America ever faculty and great volumes of energy is expended to deny it wether facts, and history, support such denials or not.

These practices is not confined to this forum and your certainly not the poster child for them but do oblige and point answer at least some of the questions.

Stellar

Originally posted by StellarX

Do we call anyone on this forum anti-Russian or anti Iraqi or for that matter anti-Chinese? Why is it that when people comment on American actions it is some strange kind of 'jealously' but talking about any other countries atrocities it's rarely frowned upon and certainly never dismissed by any number of people as anti anything? What i find even stranger is that some people consider American riches as something earned or worked for by average Americans and not something taken from others by their government. That really is the kicker for me given the volumes of information showing how the system works.

before you go off on a tantrum, why dont read the context of the remark that brought me to my conclusion?

Originally posted by COWlan
Why is America hyping the China Threat theory. America spends more than anyone else in the world, infact America spends more than the rest of the world combined!! America has more of anything than anyone else, so I really think America should shut up and stop whining.

first of all, i have shown continuously that there was no mention of a "china threat" in the article in question. therefore, a call for america to "shut up and stop whining" was just plain ignorant. i have read other threads that this individual posted on in reference to the china/america situation, and it turns out that he/she was ticked off at people in another thread, and decided to take it out here. i refuse to put up with that kind of behaviour.

What do Americans have that makes them feel so special that they may demand an entirely different set of principles for their actions on the world stage. Please clarify why Americans and their government should not adhere to the same rules ( and for that matter suffer the same penalties for breaking them) as the rest of us.

sounds like youve got a little animosity toward the US as well. i have never said that we are perfect. in fact, if you read the rest of the posts i have made here (as well as posts ive made elsewhere) instead of judging by one ticked off response to an ignorant post, you will find that i agree america makes many mistakes, and i have made no excuses for that fact.

Well many of these so called anti-Americans have offered much information but what does information matter when it is not looked at based on the premise that it's all somehow cleverly constructed fabrications to attack the standing of America in the world? Why will every rumour and lie be believed about countries like Iran and North Korea but when something even marginally hurtfull is said about America ever faculty and great volumes of energy is expended to deny it wether facts, and history, support such denials or not.

who's the one in denial here? again, check my history of posting, or ask some of the muslim individuals here like NR. i look at every post with an open mind, and think about it from everyone's point of view before i post. have i been guilty of running my mouth before i think? of course, everyone has, and i have been warned for it. but overall, i would say that i am not your typically skippy-esque american poster, and by going off on me over one post that was in every way correct when taken in context, you have shown your bias against all americans. when you group all americans together as crazies who refuse to listen and continuously deny the facts presented to them, as you have done here, you are just as guilty as those americans who lump all muslims together as crazy extremist.


[edit on 5-11-2005 by snafu7700]

Originally posted by benevolent tyrant
Has everyone forgotten a little incident called Tiananmen Square? The US hasn't! Has everyone forgotten China's invasion of Tibet and it's brutal persecution of the Buddhist monks there? The US hasn't! Has everyone forgotten China's continual demands that Taiwan "return" to China's domination and control even though the Taiwanese don't want to be part of China? The US hasn't!

While China deserves punishment for it's many crimes would it not be fair to ask all the nations who have had to suffer American imperialism over just the last century what sort of punishment America deserves? Because these crimes are not talked about in the Western media they are mostly forgotten but many billions are indeed familiar with these various crimes and will one day demand justice. As you said the US and the western world has not forgotten China's crimes ( many the result of American actions btw) but always try keep in mind that the world in general well remembers Western, and more specifically, American crimes.

If you want to learn about them and what sort of outrage may be visited upon American and the west once they stop, or fail, to control and manipulate world affairs you should check out William Blum's work or Noam Chomsky's here. They do tend to focus on American actions and if you think that is'nt fair rather look at John Pilgers work where he shows that this is a western plot with America as current arsenal and executioner.

While China's move towards capitalism is nothing short of miraculous, China is far from being a free market. China flaunts copyrights and intellectual property, essentially China is a pirate state. China actively pursues industrial espionage to such an extent that it must be labeled as being government sponsored international espionage. The US certainly has made note of this.

China is not moving towards capitalism and is simply moving to a consumer orientated society as Adam Smith and many others proposed. The idea is not for wealth to flow ever faster upwards as in the west but for consumers to keep as much buying power as they can thus driving growth. The US is not growing and what looks like growth is just a federal subsidy that results in the huge deficit that we all noticed. China may be flaunting international copyrights but why should it not when copyrighting robs humanity ( a big chunk of wich is Chinese) of it's health and freedom?

Why do we talk about Chinese industrial sabotage when American industrial sabotage comes in the form of starvation, invasion and even occupation? There is only one country who today stands convicted of international terrorism ( by the UN, and it's not China) and you probably would not believe me if i told you. ALL nations conduct industrial espionage of some sort and it really is a minor issues compared to the real issues on hand.

Of course the US can complain about China's military build up. Who is China's enemy? Tibet? Taiwan? Who's going to invade China? Certainly not Tibet, Taiwan or, for that matter, the US.

It is quite ironic that you mention this..... Who will invade America? The Russians could not even manage Afghanistan? Since the US spends so much more than everyone else the threat would obviously have to be that much larger, right? How can American spending be justified and if not why should the rest of the world not spend money just in case American spending gets aimed in their direction?

Stellar

[edit on 5-11-2005 by StellarX]

Originally posted by StellarX

It is quite ironic that you mention this..... Who will invade America? The Russians could not even manage Afghanistan? Since the US spends so much more than everyone else the threat would obviously have to be that much larger, right? How can American spending be justified and if not why should the rest of the world not spend money just in case American spending gets aimed in their direction?

Stellar

why dont you take a look at the actual numbers instead of blindly spitting out the party's propaganda.

as i have shown before, the US's military expenditures as of 2002 are 3.3 of the GPD, while china's are at 4.1 source

but china has been shown to lie about its military expenditures so this number is probably underestimated. source

it looks like we spend so much more because our economy is so much larger. but if you actually look at the expenditures, your country spends .8 percent (again, probably underestimated) more than we do.

i dont really care one way or the other how much china spends on its military, i'm just sick of people misrepresenting how much we spend by manipulating the numbers to show that we spend more than anyone else. especially when its coming from a nation that has been proven to lie about their own numbers.







[edit on 5-11-2005 by snafu7700]

Originally posted by snafu7700
so again since you have read the article, then answer the question: who is complaining?

The US.
This article has nothing to do with the US complaining but the title of the thread is

i guess you can believe the party line if you want to....but most of the rest of the world recognizes BS when it sees it. again, i'll refer you to this article.

Party line?

I dont think you know me very well to be calling me a communist.

"The Military Balance, 2003-2004," published by the prestigious International Institute for Strategic Studies, the PRC's actual military spending is more than $48 billion. Other credible estimates put the figure as high as $65 billion.

Do you realize that those esitmate include chinese purchases of supercoputers and dual-use technology?

If you take the more creditble estimate it is not 4.1% of chians GDP

sure.
this was the original quote that started the debate:

Originally posted by k4rupt
I wonder if the US would complain if China built an air base in Cuba that had the ability to drop bombs in any US City within hours...

I would hardly call that a debate. more like a few people whinning over something that was never said.

Now you quoted all those things. there is Nothing that mentions a US base on taiwan. i only see a what if

chinawhite, please explain how you go from military bases to naval vessels being military bases? as i said, that would mean that china has military bases off the coast of the US as we speak.

How do i tell you? i didn't write it up so how am i meant to answer it?

Chinese naval ships near america? Any proof to back that up?

Originally posted by snafu7700
first of all, i have shown continuously that there was no mention of a "china threat" in the article in question.

Im sorry but people are not talking about the article but about american policies toward china.

This thread has a unappropriate title for the article but the thread is called

"How can the US Complain about Chinese Military Bulidup".

If this thread was about the article it would be called

"Shifts in Pacific Force U.S. Military To Adapt Thinking"


China buildup a threat to Asia
www.msnbc.msn.com...

Revving up the China threat: new stage in US China policy
www.energybulletin.net...

Rumsfeld warns China over military expansion
www.guardian.co.uk...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now back to chinas defense speding.

Chinas offical speding is $30bn

Pentegon figure is $90bn

CIA figure is $65bn

International Institute for Strategic Studies- $48bn.


Chinas offical military spending doesn't include foriegn purchases space

China's expenditure on national defense falls into the following categories: personnel expenses, mainly including pay, food and clothing of military and non-military personnel; costs for maintenance of activities, mainly including military training, construction and maintenance of facilities and running expenses; and costs for equipment, including research and experimentation, procurement, maintenance, transportation and storage. In terms of the scope of logistic support, these expenditures cover not only active service personnel, but also militia and reserve requirements.

www.globalsecurity.org...

This includes nearly everything except space and maybe foriegn eqipment purchases.


Most of the inflated western estimates include dual-use technology space program and money the PLA makes of its compaines.


CHinse defense budget is not counted like america does and they find it difficult to believe that such a large army with such a little budget

[edit on 5-11-2005 by chinawhite]

I think your confusing me with ChinaWhite.

Originally posted by chinawhite

The US.
This article has nothing to do with the US complaining but the title of the thread is

right. and as i keep trying to tell you, the article is his proof for the title of the thread. but the article, as you have admitted, doesnt show the US complaining about anything. if the author of the thread wants to make his title "how can the US complain about chinese military buildup" dont you think he needs to support it with something that actually proves that, instead of an article that talks about american commanders looking for ways to work with china?

Party line?

I dont think you know me very well to be calling me a communist.

go back and read the quote. i wasnt talking about you...that was directed at stellar. sorry if you took offense.

Do you realize that those esitmate include chinese purchases of supercoputers and dual-use technology?

from the source in my last post:

"China's official defense budget omits a few interesting items. Those include weapons purchases, military research and development expenditures, and a variety of personnel and other costs."

I would hardly call that a debate. more like a few people whinning over something that was never said.

then why did middle kingdom admit to error and apologize?

I’m surprised they allow this site at the Beijing Military Academy of Science’s, would have though the topics are too “dangerous” to Chinas internal stability.

Originally posted by chinawhite

Im sorry but people are not talking about the article but about american policies toward china.

This thread has a unappropriate title for the article but the thread is called

"How can the US Complain about Chinese Military Bulidup".

If this thread was about the article it would be called

"Shifts in Pacific Force U.S. Military To Adapt Thinking"

then a new thread need to be started, because the author uses the original article as his "proof", which you have twice now admitted is wrong.

if you would like to start a new thread with actual proof of US complaints, go ahead. but as long as the author of this thread makes remarks that his source does not substantiate, i will continue to refute it.

Originally posted by snafu7700
right. and as i keep trying to tell you, the article is his proof for the title of the thread. but the article, as you have admitted, doesnt show the US complaining about anything. if the author of the thread wants to make his title "how can the US complain about chinese military buildup" dont you think he needs to support it with something that actually proves that, instead of an article that talks about american commanders looking for ways to work with china?

The article he posted made a mention of the equipment the US has already prepared to use on asian cities(chinese) or targets while the US is complaining about a chinese military build up

go back and read the quote. i wasnt talking about you...that was directed at stellar. sorry if you took offense.

Sorry but it was directed towards me

Originally posted by snafu7700

Originally posted by chinawhite
4.1 percent is the total figure china spends on everything.

i guess you can believe the party line if you want to....but most of the rest of the world recognizes BS when it sees it. again, i'll refer you to this article.

Anyway apology accepted.

from the source in my last post:

"China's official defense budget omits a few interesting items. Those include weapons purchases, military research and development expenditures, and a variety of personnel and other costs."

i think global defense is a much more creditble site then spacedaily. or would you like to prove otherwise?

China's expenditure on national defense falls into the following categories: personnel expenses, mainly including pay, food and clothing of military and non-military personnel; costs for maintenance of activities, mainly including military training, construction and maintenance of facilities and running expenses; and costs for equipment, including research and experimentation, procurement, maintenance, transportation and storage. In terms of the scope of logistic support, these expenditures cover not only active service personnel, but also militia and reserve requirements.

www.globalsecurity.org...

then why did middle kingdom admit to error and apologize?

You would call that a debate?

You must have very low standards

then a new thread need to be started

Agreed.

if Rumsfeld makes another statement about chians military budget or china threat i will post then we continue there


[edit on 5-11-2005 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by chinawhite

The article he posted made a mention of the equipment the US has already prepared to use on asian cities(chinese) or targets while the US is complaining about a chinese military build up

no it didnt. show me where in the article the US was complaining about chinese military build up?

Sorry but it was directed towards me

Originally posted by snafu7700

Originally posted by chinawhite
4.1 percent is the total figure china spends on everything.

i guess you can believe the party line if you want to....but most of the rest of the world recognizes BS when it sees it. again, i'll refer you to this article.

Anyway apology accepted.

no, it wasnt. stellar did not use any numbers at all. he/she simply stated that we spend more than the rest of the world. i then imputed the numbers i had previously posted, as he/she had obviously ignored them.

the above quote is not the original. you have taken my quote and added yours to it. those two quotes are from two different posts on two different pages of this thread. there is no reason for you to have taken offense.

i think global defense is a much more creditble site then spacedaily. or would you like to prove otherwise?

China's expenditure on national defense falls into the following categories: personnel expenses, mainly including pay, food and clothing of military and non-military personnel; costs for maintenance of activities, mainly including military training, construction and maintenance of facilities and running expenses; and costs for equipment, including research and experimentation, procurement, maintenance, transportation and storage. In terms of the scope of logistic support, these expenditures cover not only active service personnel, but also militia and reserve requirements.

www.globalsecurity.org...

fine, you want to use this source, then you have to use it for both sides, because it clearly states that the US includes the same expenditures in its numbers and more, including retirement and dependent benifits, which means that by your standard, the US's numbers are high as well, no?

then why did middle kingdom admit to error and apologize?

You would call that a debate?

You must have very low standards

you asked for the proof and i gave it to you. dont start with character attacks...its very unbecoming, and only weakens your arguments in the end.



[edit on 5-11-2005 by snafu7700]

Originally posted by snafu7700
no it didnt. show me where in the article the US was complaining about chinese military build up?

I am not claiming that. i have never made that claim and you still bring that up

the above quote is not the original. you have taken my quote and added yours to it. those two quotes are from two different posts on two different pages of this thread. there is no reason for you to have taken offense.

maybe you should look at page 3 third post down

I think that reply was to me. ... laugh.

fine, you want to use this source, then you have to use it for both sides, because it clearly states that the US includes the same expenditures in its numbers and more, including retirement and dependent benifits, which means that by your standard, the US's numbers are high as well, no?

The higher figure for chinese figure made by CIA pentagon is not about personal cost but dual use technology. You claimed that personal cost are not counted towards chinas defense budget which i disproved.

america $450bn for everything. 1million man military

China 30-40bn for everything. 2.1 man military

you asked for the proof and i gave it to you. dont start with character attacks...its very unbecoming, and only weakens your arguments in the end.

Proof?

Yes MK apologized but you claimed it was a debate.

This is not a road show it is a forum

[edit on 5-11-2005 by chinawhite]

Originally posted by chinawhite

The article he posted made a mention of the equipment the US has already prepared to use on asian cities(chinese) or targets while the US is complaining about a chinese military build up

That's all I wanted to say and people just can't help themselves but to come here and attack others of being "Communist" when they give good arguments or when they suggest of America's errors.

Just because I posted that article, it doesn't mean that I base all of what I said on that one article. You want more articles? Here it is:

customwire.ap.org...
Quote: "Complaining of "mixed signals" from China, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Wednesday the communist government must demonstrate more clearly its interest in improving U.S.-China relations."

telegraph.co.uk.../news/2005/07/11/wchina11.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/07/11/ixworld.html
Quote: "The United States upped its pressure on China yesterday, saying it was "concerned" over its military build-up..."

news.bbc.co.uk...
Quote: " US Secretary of State Colin Powell said on Tuesday the US would "see how they spend this money, see if it in any way is threatening to our interests in the region or whether it's just modernisation"."



Would u like more?

[edit on 6-11-2005 by k4rupt]

dont worry k4rupt.

Your first post was completly correct.

I think most people are in the know and there are the others which arent..

Anyway why is the US complaining about the so called chinese "build-up". Fear of a rival i suppose

Originally posted by chinawhite
Anyway why is the US complaining about the so called chinese "build-up". Fear of a rival i suppose

Sorry but this just begged for an answer. Fear of a rival? Remember this?

home.sandiego.edu...