F/A-22 Drops First bombs x 9

Originally posted by Harlequin
The russian Bar Lock Radar can track the F-117a and B-2 - it just can`t shoot anything at it. But tracking something is half the battle

You sure do you have a link for that? Remember that the planes are radar evading. Get close enough to one and it will be picked up eventualy. So if its picking it up at 20 km, its not much help

Originally posted by FredT
You sure do you have a link for that? Remember that the planes are radar evading. Get close enough to one and it will be picked up eventualy. So if its picking it up at 20 km, its not much help

Exactly.

The stealth technology is made to create gaps in the radar coverage which the aircraft can slip through.

I have no problem with the fact that the Russians can watch the B-2 slip in and out of radar if they arrange their radar sites densely enough, especially since they are powerless to do anything about it. I guess that comes in handy if you want to launch your nukes before they get taken out- and that's a good thing in some ways. Deterrence, while frightening, has kept humanity alive for the first 60 years of the nuclear age.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China (or in this case, the price of air defenses in Iran)? We've got a weapon that can do as it pleases over virtually any nation in the world to open up the skies for our attack planes (the B-2) and now that weapon that can serve as suitable escort to the B-2 in the event that we take on a nation that actually has an airforce to speak of, as well as back up the B-2 in the attack role (F/A-22).

That's good news for Russia when you get right down to it though, because it's going to make those who would toy with America very anxious to buy air defenses and pursue nuclear weapons, which will bring Russia a tidy profit until those nations are inevitably raped and pillaged by our military industrial complex. (Not that I necessarily have a problem with raping and pillaging- it's a dog eat dog world out there. If America has to choose which end of the fork it's going to be on, I think you can guess which side I would choose.)

BTW, something quasi-clever just came to mind. Is a Military-Industrial Complex a shadowy conspiracy, or is it just a psychological disorder that Dick Cheney has?

[edit on 23-10-2005 by The Vagabond]

Well, yes It's pretty obvious that the bomb is going to explode above the truck, I can't see anything special with that... For crying out loud, they have the best engineers in the world, anything less would be a disaster...

The latest edition of Air International arrived yesterday morning and in there it reports on the 50th Raptor being accepted for service with the USAF with some nice pictures.

The bit of the report that surprised me though was the line "62 of the 82 Raptors on order have now rolled off the production line..."

I am sure the US is going to order more than that, I'd say around 150 as a minimum figure, probably many more, but it strikes me that they seem to be leaving it a bit late to place those orders with only 20 more to build. No company likes gaps inb the production line as they have to order long lead items from suppliers etc etc and gaps can cause chaos and even COST ESCALATIONS.

Surely this is something the Pentagon needs to avoid at all costs and should get the extra orders in.

It is true however that the magazine would have closed for press maybe a week agao so if there are any recent developments in this area I wont have seen them.

Originally posted by Figher Master FIN
Well, yes It's pretty obvious that the bomb is going to explode above the truck, I can't see anything special with that... For crying out loud, they have the best engineers in the world, anything less would be a disaster...

inert bombs dont explode...they were full of concrete, not explosives. So a dead on hit is pretty impressive.

But its still obvious that the raptors still have some kinks to be worked out...a couple examples:

Though each bomb nailed its target, one weapon did not release from Raptor 43. The airplane’s stores management system, which enables the pilot to release the weapon, received an error message from the bomb’s internal telemetry test package, and automatically aborted the drop -- as designed.

“The Raptor’s computer didn’t receive confirmation signals from the bomb indicating it was ready to fire, so the plane wouldn’t let the bomb go,” said Lt. Col. Pat Minto, 1st FW maintenance squadron commander. “We’re continuing to investigate the details.

and also that it was originally supposed to be 7 Raptors...not 5, but one had some problem 20 minutes into the trip, and had to go back to Edwards, and another followed for safty reasons.

Originally posted by waynos
The bit of the report that surprised me though was the line "62 of the 82 Raptors on order have now rolled off the production line..."

I am sure the US is going to order more than that, I'd say around 150 as a minimum figure,

They keep cutting back the order, which I believe to be a huge mistake. For one thing, it's driving up the unit cost so that selling them to allies becomes out of the question. For another thing, the low number simply is not in line with what the Raptor really is. What do you need a stealth Fighter/Attacker for? For destroying high priority targets in well defended airspace? Who has really well defended airspace? I'll give you a hint, it aint the warlords in Western Pakistan- it's more formidable opponents.

Having 200-300 Raptors would send a great message: If you screw with America, no matter how good your stuff is, we'll have complete air superiority within a week.

Having 80 Raptors sends a different message: We can only be in so many places at one time- so make sure to cook up a good diversion.

I see one of the greatest benefits of the F/A-22 as being that it makes nations with good air defenses and large airforces (like China and Russia) think "you know, I'm not sure we're up to the task". But if there are only so many Raptors it's like "well, that dang F/A-22 can't fight the whole war for them- if we open two fronts and down a few of them, it won't be nearly as much of a factor".

Originally posted by The Vagabond

Originally posted by waynos
The bit of the report that surprised me though was the line "62 of the 82 Raptors on order have now rolled off the production line..."

I am sure the US is going to order more than that, I'd say around 150 as a minimum figure,

They keep cutting back the order, which I believe to be a huge mistake. For one thing, it's driving up the unit cost so that selling them to allies becomes out of the question. For another thing, the low number simply is not in line with what the Raptor really is. What do you need a stealth Fighter/Attacker for? For destroying high priority targets in well defended airspace? Who has really well defended airspace? I'll give you a hint, it aint the warlords in Western Pakistan- it's more formidable opponents.

Having 200-300 Raptors would send a great message: If you screw with America, no matter how good your stuff is, we'll have complete air superiority within a week.

Having 80 Raptors sends a different message: We can only be in so many places at one time- so make sure to cook up a good diversion.

I see one of the greatest benefits of the F/A-22 as being that it makes nations with good air defenses and large airforces (like China and Russia) think "you know, I'm not sure we're up to the task". But if there are only so many Raptors it's like "well, that dang F/A-22 can't fight the whole war for them- if we open two fronts and down a few of them, it won't be nearly as much of a factor".

The message depends on the enemy. Russia or China certainly wont be concerned with 200-300 raptors if we were considering attacking their territory since they have enough nuclear capability to deter such an attack but it should concern countries like Iran, Syria, who would even be concerned by 80 F-22s as long as those are supplemented by hundreds of our older fighters. In fact these countries should be concerned even if we had no F-22. In Vietnam our F-4 was an inferior fighter compared to the Migs and had unreliable missiles yet the kill ratio was lopsided in our favor.

Given that we will never ever engage in direct convential combat with a major nuclear power, and given that our current aircraft are quite sufficient to take out other potential enemies, one wonders why we are spending so much money on an air-superiority fighter like the F-22.

With the reunification of Germany and their tests of the Mig-29, we learned that the russians have had large numbers of technically superior fighters for decades yet it hasnt made the slightest difference to our national security and I dont see why it will now. I can assure you no matter how much we spend on the F-22, its not going to give us any meaningful advantage over countries that could challenge us militarily, like Russia or China. Weak countries like Iran or Syriya would just roll over just as Iraq did.

The F-35 which lacks all-aspect stealth makes even less sense when you consider the fact that the alternative would be 2-3 F-16s or F-18s with upgraded systems.

We are much better off developing a proper missile defense system and investing in large numbers of cheap and fast UCAVs which enables large numbers and varieties to be deployed simultaneously enabling us to swamp almost any enemy. Manned fighters are old news and a waste of money.

[edit on 23-10-2005 by orca71]

[edit on 23-10-2005 by orca71]

Originally posted by NR
well its a bomb dude of course something is going to fly off the ground, but the question is how will it withstand a possible attack from S-400? it will easily get locked on and destroyed, just tell that to your other so called stealth fighter/bombers such as B-2 and F-117 which one of them got tracked down by Rapier SAM.

Fact: S-400 is still a concept.

Fact: There is no way for even the best radar to lock onto stealth, if it can even detect it.

Here is a picture of a Raptor dropping a 1,000 lb JDAM at supercruise a couple months ago.

Link

Would anyone care for some pics of Raptors from the 27th Fighter Squadron out of Langley - taken last week during "Operation Combat Hammer" at Hill AFB, Utah?



Above: Oct 15 - Raptor taxis at Hill AFB after flying in from Langley...


Above: Captain Lohmiller prepares to fly the first mission of "Operation Combat Hammer"...


Above: F-22's of the 27th FS taxi out for inert bombing missions...


Above: Oct 17th - Major Mike Shower takes off on a bombing mission...


Credit: photos by Tech. Sgt. Ben Bloker

Natalie~





[edit on 24-10-2005 by intelgurl]

Natalie

nice pictures do like the F22 one very advanced bit of kit

thx

RAB

oh yeah thats great to hear, wow nice pictures the raptor is almost unreal its interesting this must be how people felt when the 232 hit the skies, amazing!

The raptor and the FB-23 will be a great tag team, the numbers of the f-35 have been cut back and more f22s added iirc.

Lovely pictures, doesn't the F/A-22 look like a sci fi prop?
Especially after you've been looking at pictures of Vulcans and MiG 21's as I just have!

Originally posted by Char2c35t
The raptor and the FB-23 will be a great tag team, the numbers of the f-35 have been cut back and more f22s added iirc.

really? link please.

Theres talk of that happening...but I didn't know they did it.
The F-35 is still on schedule...people seem to forget that its still aways off into the future.

oh, and I also think they should drop the interim bomber...or any other big budget bomber project and give the money to build more raptors.


[edit on 24-10-2005 by Murcielago]

Murcielago I think he is talking about a report that come out a few weeks go concerning the Pentagons Quadrennial Defense Review, rumors had it that the Pentagon was cutting down the numbers of F-35’s for the AF in order to buy more Raptors. There's a thread about that some where around here. Anyway, nothings is confirmed yet.

Originally posted by Murcielago
oh, and I also think they should frop the interim bomber...or any other big budget bomber project and give the money to build more raptors.

I couldn't agree more

I'd rather get another 100 Raptors then some interm BS bomber.

Thanks for the pics Intelgurl.


As for the idea that we'll never go to war with Russia or China- it is highly likely that you are correct, however it is not a certainty that we can afford to rely on.

Deterence is about escalation. Suppose that you and another person each had a gun on your hip, and you each reached for the last coke in the fridge at the same time, and he gets to it first.

Now are you going to pull your gun on him? Of course not. But if you did, and if you pulled your gun on him every time something little like that came up, sooner or later he'd just shoot you when he saw you coming.

Now on the other hand, what if when he got to it, you slapped his hand away and grabbed it. Is he going to pull his gun? Probably not for the same reason you wouldn't- but he may shove you down and try to take it.

Now when this escalates into a real fight, one of your probably will pull his gun, and when you do, it's going to be credible.

It's the same with nukes. Deterence begins with, "no, I'm serious, you aren't going to do X with your conventional weapons, because if you do I'll respond with Y." Your opponent says, "Then I'd have to do Z." And you say, "If you do Z we're going to war."
Take the Cuban missile crisis as a perfect example. It wasn't just "Pull your nukes out of Cuba or we'll level Moscow".
It was "If you don't take them out we're gonna hit them." "Well if you hit them we're going to Berlin." "If you go to Berlin, you're at war with NATO." "If we get the bad end of a war with NATO, we'll use tactical nukes." "If you use tactical nukes, we'll use strategic nukes."

Let's bring it back to the real world- what happens if America can't go to the wall with Russia and China in a conventional war?

2006: Republicans in congress cut military spending to push through an election year tax rebate. The Army revises its reorganization program and drops 1 active brigade and 2 reserve brigades. The Navy scraps the DD(X) and LCS projects in favor of a new class of Frigate. The airforce decides not to take an option on additional F/A-22 aircraft, but asks for an upgrade program to the F-16, and new production of the F-16 at a later date, to be determined.

2007: The United Russia party in the Duma makes a series of amendments to the constitution of the Russian Federation- Putin is allowed to run for a third successive term and proportional representation is eliminated. That parties already immense power is strengthened to near absolutism.

2008: Putin and his supporters win election overwhelmingly- Russia begins a drift back to the Soviet era. The democrats, to nobody's surprise win the US elections. The Democrats concentrate on domestic issues while pushing for multilateralism in foreign policy.
The ABM treaty is restored and America ceases development of a missile shield.

America pulls out of Iraq. Russia cracks down on the Chechens. Russian troops begin to carry out operations in South Ossetia, Georgia on a regular basis.

2009: The Russian-Indian PAK FA program begins production of a derivative of the MiG 1.44. In most respects it as seen as a worthy adversary for the Raptor. China places an order and begins work on a domestic version.

2010: Russia invades Georgia on charges that they are helping the Chechens. South Ossetia and Abkhazia petition for annexation and are accepted. The US cries foul at the invasion of a NATO Patnership For Peace signatory.

Russia cuts the Caspian Basin Oil Pipeline.
Azerbaijan requests NATO troops immediately.
Turkey and Israel demand that the pipeline be restored and plead with the US to back them in a threat of attack if it is not.

Russian MiG 1.44's stray into Turkish airspace and shoot down three Turkish fighters. The US interperets this as a warning- they are right. 20 F/A-22s are sent to Incirlik, Turkey.

China sends 50 of their domestic version of the MiG 1.44 to Iran along with several SS-22s. Iran cuts oil exports dramatically and threatens to blockade the strait of Tiran.

America has a problem: we can't nuke anybody over an oil pipeline in Georgia, the UN Security Council can't help us because the enemy is Russia and China, we've only got 80 aircraft really equipped to deal with the threats that we face in the Gulf and the Caucuses if we decide to act, and since we can't gain air superiority we can't just make surgical strikes to slap the Russians on the wrist. Either we're going in or we're backing down. If we back down, we don't know what it might mean for our relations with Turkey, or for the future of Turkey for that matter.

America deploys a small force to protect Azerbaijan but let's the invasion of Georgia stand. The Russians build a base just North of Georgia's border with Armenia. Conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia begins to heat up thanks to Russian covert provokation. Strategic think-tanks warn the president that his decision may lead to the complete isolation of Azerbaijan, which would force them to give in to the Russians and result in shared Russo-Iranian control of the entire Caspian.

America decides to retaliate cold-war style to ensure that Russia won't have Armenia cripple Azerbaijan. The Russians have to know that everytime they push we're going to push back somewhere else. Iran is out of the question since they've got the bomb at this point, so America decides to invade Uzbekistan, which in 2005 kicked America out of an airbase there, and install a puppet that will allow us to build an airbase on the Uzbek-Kazahk border, as a way of pressuring the Russians.

Russia moves its MiGs 1.44's into Kazakhstan and begins patrolling over Uzbekistan to ensure that we will not attack. America again ponders the possibility of a clash with Russia- the administration is assured that if we don't retaliate Russia will keep pushing.

America begins its air campaign against the Uzbeks, ignoring the Russian aircraft in hope that they're only bluffing. They aren't. Russia's new 5th generation fighter takes a heavy toll on the F-16s. Our F-22s respond and engage them with mixed results. The war is a stalemate before it's really even begun. America learns a valuable lesson: Letting the other nations catch up with us was a mistake. Letting them get ahead would be even worse. America immediately orders additional F-22s and begins developing the technology for a 6th generation fighter.

See what I'm getting at? If somebody else can equal or better us in quality and quantity, or god forbid actually get ahead of us, deterrence isn't perfect. We'll lose a step or two in foreign policy.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
You won't have any success against the Raptor, much less beat us.

That kind of attitude will turn everyone against you. And I'd wager that USA vs. The World would turn out to be messy for both sides so let's keep the arrogance to a minimum please. I'm not a moderator but there's no reason for that kind of comment.

On the other note it's pretty cool that a Raptor can do that kind of damage to a truck. THose JDAM bombs are really starting to come in handy.

Pilot's note: "Shack!" means that you have successfully bombed a target. In case anyong hasn't figured it out.

Originally posted by Darkpr0
That kind of attitude will turn everyone against you.

Why would the truth get everyone to turn against us?

The FACT is the Raptors will dominate any known aircraft. It isn't an attitude - it's the truth.