Can Someone Explain How Israel Was Created?

Originally posted by Riwka

Originally posted by ArchAngel

That the Zionist Jews, and Christians use the Torah to promote their claim to the land while ignoring the covenant is important.

We Zionist Jews are very sure our democratic Jewish State of Israel has been established according to United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181

I think history books say the same.

Israel is not a Democracy.

It is an interim government that has failed to honor its own founding document by creating a constitution.

Israel is not in compliance with UN Resolution 181 for numerous reasons including their occupation of the West Bank, Jerusalem district, Golon, and Cheeba Farms.

From what you have divulged (thank you for you candor), You are an "expert" in one half of the equation, and admittedly "ignorant" regarding the other half... Just trying to ascertain you ability to accurately assess the situation between the Palestinians and Israel.

I believe the broad side of the barn... Has been missed.

Without proof of your supposition the the Muslims are somehow in violation of a covenant with God you have not only missed the barn, the stone still lies in your hand.

Originally posted by ArchAngel

Israel is not a Democracy.

Of course we are. Just google serious references or see a history book.

Like United Kingdom, at the moment we do not need a constitution to be a democratic state

Originally posted by ArchAngel

Israel is not in compliance with UN Resolution 181

There is no need to be in compilance today.

The question is " Can Someone Explain How Israel Was Created?"

- and in fact, like it or not: UN Res. 181 is the answer to this question.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
You missed the part where the Israelites stole the land from the Cainanites, and you ignored the fact that Israel violated the covenant so the Roman occupation was Gods curse upon them as promised.

See Deuteronomy 28 for details.....

Way to go after him MM

Now let's see if I can say this just a little bit more clearly, since apparently I'm speaking some kind of strange foreign language. 1. The Caananites were a semetic people- cousins of the Jews. 2. The Caananites never established a unified nation independent of foreign rule in that area- nobody but Israel has ever done that. The Kingdom of Israel was the first unified state to occupy those borders.

You argue for giving control of that land to Arabs on the grounds that the Philistines and other Caananite peoples- all cousins of the Jews- once had city states in the region, but were eventually had their territory forged into the nation of Israel?

If that claim doesn't hold up, you are willing to completely change the major premise that the people who inhabit and settle the land are its rightful owners and instead claim that devine mandate is the determining factor. You make this claim in ignorance of the fact that God has always promised the Jews that they would not be exiled forever, has promised them the rebuilding of their temple, and that against all odds they have infact been given their homeland back, which if we are to work under the assumption that God's will is the issue, would have to be considered strong evidence that God has infact given Israel a new lease on life. You'd be better off staying on the sinking ship that is your argument for Caananite sovreignity. If you do move on to the "devine mandate" argument, you take an untenable position which ultimately must concede not only to the legitimacy of zionism, but even to the right of the Jews to reclaim the Temple Mount. If you ask me, that's a can of worms we don't even want to open, and is so on many levels.

So going back to the Caananite sovreignity argument, would you concede that Athens has a right to declare sovreignity and undertake a war of terror against the rest of Greece, not only to reestablish their ancestral city state, but to claim and consolidate power over adjoining territories which were never technically theirs? Really you'd have to if really believed the logic of your position and were not just an arbitrary enemy of Israel. It hardly stops with Athens either. You have to restore the feudal states of China; that of course would require one heck of a war, but your support for the Palestinian side implies that you consider such causes legitimate no matter what the human cost.

Finally, I note once again that there is no such thing as a Palestinian anymore- the Philistine civilization is long dead, and was so even in the 1st Century when Rome renamed the area for them. There is no more a Palestinian anywhere in the world than there is a Tartar or a Visigoth. The descendents of the Visigoths are no longer Visigoths- they belong to European nationalities, their cultural identity has been assimilated into the proceeding societies. The descendents of the Caananites are no longer Caananites- they are Arabs- except for some Philistines, who belong to Cyprus either as Turks or Greeks.
Not so for the Jews however. The Jewish identity has endured. The Jews still exist as a people, retaining a name, a religion, and a tradition of their own, influenced but not assimiliated by the many cultures they have come in contact with. They retain the birthright of the Jewish people because they have continued to be the Jewish people, and have not been made Russians or Germans or Britons. Ironically, if they had not been scapegoated whereever they went they may not have endured. That seems to be the nature of bullying- the anvil will always outlive the hammer. You'd think people would figure that out and learn to ignore the people who they truly hate. Give it a shot. It'll be good for you and the Jews.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Rome stole it from the Jews, Rome split and the stolen land was in the hands of the Byzantines. The Caliphate stole it from them. The Ottomans stole it from them. The Brits stole it from them, then gave it back to the original owners.

I believe this is all that you needed to say. I will retract my prior comments as i've been ill-informed.

Thanks for that little tid bit of a history lesson.

Israel’s first Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion:

Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?

David Ben-Gurion
"Let me first tell you one thing: It doesn't matter what the world says about Israel; it doesn't matter what they say about us anywhere else. The only thing that matters is that we can exist here on the land of our forefathers. And unless we show the Arabs that there is a high price to pay for murdering Jews, we won't survive." David Ben-Gurion's advice to Officer Ariel Sharon following the controversial and much-condemned raid on Qibya, as relayed by Ariel Sharon during an interview for the documentary "Israel and the Arabs: 50 Year War".

"We accepted the UN resolution, but the Arabs did not. They are preparing to make war on us. If we defeat them and capture western Galilee or territory on both sides of the road to Jerusalem, these areas will become part of the state. Why should we obligate ourselves to accept boundaries that in any case the Arabs don't accept?" David Ben-Gurion to his cabinet, May 12, 1948

"Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent." Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on May 14, 1948

So we've firmly established that Ben-Gurion was pragmatic as well as charismatic... If only the Arab states were so blessed... :shk:

Please note the last quote, would such benevolence be extended to a Jewish citizen in an Arab state?

Yeah, right.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Israel’s first Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion:

Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?

Please - check your sources, you quoted a falsification.

Those misquotes are found in op-eds in campus newpapers and as well as on anti-Israel websites, most of those claim David Ben-Gurion has been quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress - which is abolute false.

In fact the statements you quoted were made by Moshe Dayan

and not by Ben Gurion...but you seem to have taken the quotes very much out of context and have left words out...

Correct quote and Context:

The quote is taken from an address Moshe Dayan gave to Technion University students on March 19, 1969 (after the six-day-war June 5-10, 1967, where Israel captured the Gaza Strip and the Sinai from Egypt, the West Bank from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.) A transcription of the speech appeared in Ha'aretz on April 4, 1969.

In answer to a student's question suggesting that Israel adopt a policy of punishing Arabs who commit crimes in the West Bank by deportation to Jordan,Moshe Dayan answers that he is vehemently opposed to this idea, insisting that the answer to the longstanding Arab-Israeli problem is to learn to live together with Arab neighbors. Moshe Dayan goes on to say:


We came to a region that was inhabited by Arabs, and we set up a Jewish state. In many places, we purchased the land from Arabs and set up Jewish villages where there had once been Arab villages. You do not even know the names (of the previous Arab villages) and I do not blame you, because those geography books are not around anymore. Not only the books, the villages are not around...

Dayan's conclusion was that the solution to the Arab-Israeli problem is to learn to coexist with them.

In the misquote, the key phrase “we purchased the land from Arabs” is omitted and thus Dayan's meaning is misrepresented. Dayan was not saying that Arabs were dispossessed. On the contrary, he was indicating that though Arabs sold the land of their own free will, given their one-time presence in the land of Israel, the Israeli goal is to live peacefully together with them.

more: CAMERA - Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting: Zionist Misquote - Moshe Dayan on Dispossessing Arabs in the Land of Israel


[edit on 30-10-2005 by Riwka]

Hey hey, check out Riwka- good job . Well class, this concludes Israeli History 101.

Edit to add: Truelies, I know from experience that it takes a lot of intellect and class to stand corrected, especially on a controversial issue where some people will always agree with you if you stand fast. I tip my hat to you.

[edit on 30-10-2005 by The Vagabond]

Maybe a more specific question............who actually owned the land before the Jews turned it into Israel? I mean, my ancestors fought a war and took the land from the American Indian out right, no doubt there. What exactly happen with Israel?

Originally posted by BANGINCOLOR
Maybe a more specific question............who actually owned the land before the Jews turned it into Israel? I mean, my ancestors fought a war and took the land from the American Indian out right, no doubt there. What exactly happen with Israel?

Americans that support Israel taking the Palestinians lands should also support their own land being taken from them by Native Americans.

ArchAngel,
If the entirety of Israel is nothing but occupied or stolen land, and since it is now currently recognized as a nation, you are suggesting that the entire population of Israel simply give that stolen land back, dissolve, disappear, go away, disperse......basically cease to exist?






seekerof

[edit on 31-10-2005 by Seekerof]

Israel should withdraw from the occupied territories, allow right of return and return of property, and finally create a constitution that allows equal rights.

With that situation Israel does cease to exist as a racist nation.

If Israel were a true democracy everyone in the Mid-East would be moving there, but its not...

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Israel should withdraw from the occupied territories, allow right of return and return of property, and finally create a constitution that allows equal rights.

With that situation Israel does cease to exist as a racist nation.

If Israel were a true democracy everyone in the Mid-East would be moving there, but its not...

in the view of Muslims, all of those territories and Israel must be turned over back to the Arabs. including Jerusalem.

as posted by ArchAngel
Israel should withdraw from the occupied territories...

Oh wait, seemingly, according to what you initially insinuated just previously.....

as posted by ArchAngel
Americans that support Israel taking the Palestinians lands should also support their own land being taken from them by Native Americans.

.....the entirety of the land making up the nation of Israel is occupied land, stolen from the Palestinians.





seekerof

[edit on 31-10-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Israel is not in compliance with UN Resolution 181 for numerous reasons including their occupation of the West Bank, Jerusalem district, Golon, and Cheeba Farms.

Shebaa Farms is another issue altogether in which Hamas/proSyrian-Lebanese and Syria are obfuscating. Syria was linking Golan, Shebaa and its occupation of Lebanon into a single issue. They are (were) two and a half issues.

As for the Golan Heights...Syria gave up all right to them when they used them to shell Israeli cities and towns despite no war being declared.

Egypt got the Sinai back.

Jordan gave up their claim to East Jerusalem and Temple Mount in favour of the Palestinians.

Only Syria didn't get their land back. Hmmm, I wonder why...

If things can continue stumbling along the Palestinians will get their own state, one day. But they will have to endure an unbearable semi-autonomy for a long time first.

Originally posted by Seekerof

as posted by ArchAngel
Israel should withdraw from the occupied territories...

Oh wait, seemingly, according to what you initially insinuated just previously.....

as posted by ArchAngel
Americans that support Israel taking the Palestinians lands should also support their own land being taken from them by Native Americans.

.....the entirety of the land making up the nation of Israel is occupied land, stolen from the Palestinians.

You always seem to want to weasle around with words to make them say what you want to hear.

Lets turn this all around, and ask you what solution you support.

I have yet to hear from you on the issue.

Do you favor the ethnic cleansing of the Muslims, and CHRISTIANS of Palestine?

Do you want more of the same?

Or do you support a solution where everyone gets equal rights?

Originally posted by ArchAngel

ethnic cleansing of the Muslims, and CHRISTIANS of Palestine?

Since there is no "Palestine" - which place in the world do you mean?


In case you mean the citizens of Israel, please note some FACTS:

By the end of 2004, Israel's population reached 6,869,500 (according to the Central Statistics Bureau report )

including 5,237,600 Jews (76.2 percent - in comparison to 77.8 percent in 2000)

1,340,200 Israeli Arabs (19.5 percent)

and 291,700 "others" (4.2 percent).

The Muslim population reached 16.1 percent in 2004, in comparison to 15.2 percent in 2000.

Israels fertility rate (the average number of children per woman during the course of her life) was 2.9 children per woman in 2004 ( - same as it was per woman during the 1990s).

Indeed, the fertility rate in the Muslim and Christian community has been falling since 2000:

After remaining stable for 15 years, since the mid-1980s, the fertility rate in the Muslim community has declined from 4.6-4.7 children per woman to 4.4 in 2004.

The fertility in the Christian Arab community has fallen from 2.7 children per woman in 1996 to 2.2 in 2004

(The fertility rate in the Jewish community has remained at 2.6-2.7 children per woman.)

(sources: - globes.co.il - Yedioth Internet)

Or did you mean the ethnic cleansing of the Gaza Strip (even the dead Jews left)?

Or did you mean the Christians in the Westbank?

Off the record, many Christians in Bethlehem who were interviewed last week expressed deep concern over increased attacks by Muslims on members of their community.

"The Christians here are perceived as easy prey," says a prominent Christian businessman. "After the Palestinian Authority arrived here in 1995, many Muslim families from Hebron and other parts of the West Bank have moved to Beit Jala," said a local physician. "Some of them have illegally seized privately-owned lands."

Fatah gunmen in Beit Jala who fired into the Jerusalem neighborhood of Gilo in the first years of the intifada are also responsible for the rape and murder of two Christian teenage sisters from the Amr family. "Some of the murderers were later killed by the Israeli army, but others are now living in Europe after they had sought refuge in the Church of Nativity. It's absurd that Muslim men who rape and murder Christian girls are given political asylum in Christian countries like Ireland, Spain, and Italy," said a family member.

Samir Qumsiyeh, a journalist from Beit Sahur who heads a local TV station, has drawn up a list of 93 cases of anti-Christian violence between 2000 and 2004. "Almost all 140 cases of expropriation of land in the last three years were committed by militant Islamic groups and members of the Palestinian police," Qumsiyeh said. "In 1950 the Christian population in Bethlehem was 75%. Today we have hardly more than 12% Christians."

source - Oct. 21, 2005

[edit on 1-11-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Israel should withdraw from the occupied territories, allow right of return and return of property, and finally create a constitution that allows equal rights.

With that situation Israel does cease to exist as a racist nation.

If Israel were a true democracy everyone in the Mid-East would be moving there, but its not...

Did you ever hear the expression "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner; Liberty is a well armed lamb dissenting the vote."

Yeah, that's a WONDERFUL idea. Let's call up the Arabs who occupied our land for centuries already and who have tried to steal it from us again several times in our brief 60 year existence. We'll tell them to come on over and move about with absolute freedom, even though we pretty much know that they'll use that freedom and privacy to wage a terror campaign, and just in case that doesn't work, we'll give them the vote. Has it occurred to you that they'll probably elect whoever promises to commit genocide against the Jewish people?

You know, that gives me another idea. During the cold war, we should have opened up our borders to the Russians unconditionally, given all Russian citizens a vote in America, and then surely they all would have come to our wonderful true democracy and settled down, and nothing bad would have happened to us at all.
Don't bother crying false analogy- Russia has legitimate historical claims to parts of the American West Coast- not just Alaska, and could always claim that they were forced into the treaties ending that under threats of violence- and that wouldn't wash with international law these days.

Originally posted by ArchAngel
Do you favor the ethnic cleansing of the Muslims, and CHRISTIANS of Palestine?

Muslims: not really, so I'm glad that nobody is doing that to them. I do wish someone would slap them around a bit and make them knock it off though.

Christians: I'm against that ethnic cleansing too. I wish the Muslims would stop doing it to them.

Do you want more of the same?

No, I want to rewind to the '67 and see Israel kick the snot out of these terrorists.

Or do you support a solution where everyone gets equal rights?

Yes, absolutely. Arabs have the same right to live in an Arab country as Israelis have to live in Israel. So what are they waiting for? Go the hell back to Jordan!