Gaza and the Israeli Settlers

www.ornery.org...

Orsen Scott card is IMHO one of the best science fiction writers of all time. But he also writes alot of political commentary and this one is interesting, I believe that this is worth a separate thread to discuss the article and its take on the issue.

But that attitude -- and those actions -- will play into Israel's hands. Because nobody with any moral sense would expect Israel to concede another inch of territory when it clearly does not lead to peace.

maybe...but even the u.s government, israel's biggest supporter complained that israel intentionally left the synagogues intact in gaza (which israel did only after several pleas from rabbis) for the shock value of having them desecrated (sp?) by the palestinians. funny thing...there wasnt much of an outcry from the media when it happened. can you imagine how the world would have reacted if israel had destroyed every mosque when it occupied gaza? what i'm trying to say is that it doesnt matter what israel does or does not do...it will never be good enough for the rest of the world.

Hey Snafu:

Have you ever heard of U.N. Resolution #242? Just curious is all.

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS
Hey Snafu:

Have you ever heard of U.N. Resolution #242? Just curious is all.

i dont know where exactly youre going with that question, because theres arguments for both sides in that resolution. for instance:

1. Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

pro arab: israel never left the occupied areas

pro israeli: none of the parties has ever officially recognized israels right to exist...or even that they do, in fact, exist....and especially not the right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.

Originally posted by snafu7700

pro arab: israel never left the occupied areas

U.N Resolution 242 does not specify how much territory Israel is required to give up.

The Security Council did not say Israel must withdraw from "all the" territories occupied after the Six-Day war. This was quite deliberate. The Soviet delegate wanted the inclusion of those words and said that their exclusion meant "that part of these territories can remain in Israeli hands." The Arab states pushed for the word "all" to be included, but this was rejected.


And - an other funny thing:

In a statement to the General Assembly October 15, 1968, the PLO rejected Resolution 242


[edit on 28-9-2005 by Riwka]

Actually Rwka, the U.N. original draft of #242 DID at first demand that Israel withdraw from ALL the territories recently seized (in April 1967) but the draft was changed (through some tough coercion from the US shortly afterwards) in order to adjust the wording (in order to forestall a VETO by the US) to read less specifically: "withdraw from territories recently seized..."

Either way, world opinion has tended towards the eventual solution that Israel must cede all (or at any rate the vast majority of) the lands taken illegally in the 1967 land grab...and bring back Israel to the pre 1967 borders (with some concessions perhaps around east Jerusalem and the Golan Heights etc.).

The racist apartheid "settlements" with all their connecting private roads "for Jews Only No Arabs" and the racist "bunta" style of dividing up neighbourhoods to economically starve and force the Palestinian population through hundreds of armed IDF army checkpoints in the West Bank and Jerusalem has only fuelled Arab resentment against Israel's more than 35 years of "military occupation".

It's the settlements (and the plowing under of Palestinian farmland including the destruction or relocation of over 400 year old date and olive trees, i.e. the Palestinian cash crops, in order to create them) that is at the core of the tension between the two ethno-religious groups which are growing economically apart as time goes on...one has to see most of the violence in the region as a result of ye olde Class Struggle...which always ends up in violent upheavals one way or another.

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS

It's the settlements (and the plowing under of Palestinian farmland including the destruction or relocation of over 400 year old date and olive trees, i.e. the Palestinian cash crops, in order to create them) that is at the core of the tension between the two ethno-religious groups which are growing economically apart as time goes on...one has to see most of the violence in the region as a result of ye olde Class Struggle...which always ends up in violent upheavals one way or another.

ok, lets put this in perspective. until the early 20th century, when jews started migrating back to the area now known as israel, it was a barren wasteland. according to mark twain who made a pilgrimage to the area around the turn of the century "even those fast friends of the desert, the date and olive trees could not thrive." there was a huge movement during that time called "a peopleless nation for a nationless people" that started returning the jews to that area, an area wholly unoccupied. they, through hard work and perceverence (sp?) made the land flourish, which brought poor arabs in to work for the jews on their farms...much like the migrant workers of americas southwest (and incidently, those first arabs did quite well, and those that wished were allowed to stay in israel and given full citizenship when the country was founded in 1947). then their neighbors started to covet the land that the jews had made fruitful.

when the israelies left gaza, they left behind a huge green house abundent with food and work for the palestinians. the palestinians immediately destroyed the whole thing. the only cash crop they have is their increasing weapons program. the plo lets their people starve while they spend all there money and time in building weapons.

and lets not kid around....before arafat, there was no such thing as the palestinian people. they were egyptians, jordanians, etc who were left to rot in refugee camps by their own people...they werent allowed to come back home....it was an intentional and cold calculation by the arabs to make israel look like the "landgrabbers" neoamadeus claims they are.

and by the way neo....how do you illegally take a land from people who attacked you first?

Hi Snafu:

Do you REALLY believe that Israel's pre-emptive bombing strike upon the Egyptian airforce ON THE GROUND on June 4th 1967 was Palestinians attacking the Israelis?

Do you REALLY think that Israel's conscious and heinous firebombing of the USS Liberty (after flying over the ship 5 times and waving at the sailors below that very morning) at 1:30pm local time on June 8th1967 which killed 34 American soldiers and severely burned 118 more Americans on board that ship were Palestinians attacking the Israelis? Do you think the eyewitnesses that were there and now going around the country talking about what Israel did to America that day are all lying?

Can you say "Deir Yassin?" Can you say Dr. Rabbi Baruch Goldstein? Can you say Meir Kahane? Can you say "A million Arabs are not worth a single Jewish Toenail?" Sound Familiar?

Then again, I have to ask...do you REALLY think that Joshua commanded the sun and the moon to stand still so he could finish a battle..or for that matter, that Jews are the Master Race (whoops, wrong racists!) I mean er...the Chosen People that can do anything they like against the "stupid goyim" (to quote a phrase from the Babylonian Talmud which you probably cannot even read) ?

Well........?

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS

Do you REALLY believe that Israel's pre-emptive bombing strike upon the Egyptian airforce ON THE GROUND on June 4th 1967 was Palestinians attacking the Israelis?

On May 15, Nasser put Egyptian forces on alert. On May 16, he moved troops into the Sinai and demanded that the U.N. withdraw its forces from the Sinai, thus removing the international buffer between Egypt and Israel which had existed since 1957. On May 22, Nasser blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping (that, in itself, being an act of war as israel had stated in 1957 that another attempt to blockade the Tiran Straits would be met by Israeli military action). Then on May 30, Jordan's King Hussein signed a five year mutual defense pact with Egypt. On June 5, nearly the entire Egyptian air force (304 planes) was caught while still on the ground and was destroyed by Israeli fighter jets. If Israel had waited for the Arabs to attack (and I think it's pretty clear they were mobilizing to attack), it would have been destroyed.

Do you REALLY think that Israel's conscious and heinous firebombing of the USS Liberty (after flying over the ship 5 times and waving at the sailors below that very morning) at 1:30pm local time on June 8th1967 which killed 34 American soldiers and severely burned 118 more Americans on board that ship were Palestinians attacking the Israelis? Do you think the eyewitnesses that were there and now going around the country talking about what Israel did to America that day are all lying?

As you are obviously anti-semitic, I won't attempt to sway you on that point. I'll just say that the Israelis claimed it was an accident: that they mistook Liberty for an Egyptian vessel connected with what they believed to be Egyptian shelling of Israeli positions at al-Arish going on at the time (the explosions ashore later turned out to be an ammunition dump blowing up). Mistakes happen in time of war.

Can you say "Deir Yassin?" Can you say Dr. Rabbi Baruch Goldstein? Can you say Meir Kahane? Can you say "A million Arabs are not worth a single Jewish Toenail?" Sound Familiar?

Yes, there are Jewish radicals, just as there are Islamic radicals, neo-nazi radicals, african-american radicals, etc. But considering that the former leader of the Palestinians (Arafat) is quoted on several occations as saying that he would not rest until all jews were pushed into the sea, and also seeing that the majority of the Islamic religious leaders are preaching hate on a daily basis, which is really worse? The Israelis who have been shown time and time again that if they let their guard down for one minute, they're dead (and who, incidently, have many arab citizens enjoying the same rights and privelages as jewish israelis), or the Arabs who's ultimate goal is the complete genocide of the Jewish people (dont believe me? check out any speech made by any mullah in the middle east in the last week...or decade).

Then again, I have to ask...do you REALLY think that Joshua commanded the sun and the moon to stand still so he could finish a battle..or for that matter, that Jews are the Master Race (whoops, wrong racists!) I mean er...the Chosen People that can do anything they like against the "stupid goyim" (to quote a phrase from the Babylonian Talmud which you probably cannot even read) ?

As a Christian, i'm not going to lower myself to your level on that one...and no, i can only read English, Spanish, and Italian. But if you would really like to learn about other religions and their texts (including the Babylonian Talmud in English), you might check this out:

www.sacred-texts.com...


I've been learning quite a bit from that site over the last few years.

ok, lets put this in perspective. until the early 20th century, when jews started migrating back to the area now known as israel, it was a barren wasteland. according to mark twain who made a pilgrimage to the area around the turn of the century "even those fast friends of the desert, the date and olive trees could not thrive."

Mr. Twain was mistaken, or joking.

Palestine was populated, and all ariable land was being farmed.

www.mideastweb.org...

Jews were only 10% of the population before the British occupation, and even less before that.

The land did not just rise up out of the sea, and Jews started moving in....

Yeah, that may be so, ArchAngel.
In any event, your solution is what?
Cause if it is all about occupied, then the nation of Israel today is occupied land, correct?
So if those who advocate the removal of Jews from all occupied lands, then where will those millions of current Jews who inhabit the nation of Israel go?

Tibet, maybe?






seekerof

Originally posted by ArchAngel

Mr. Twain was mistaken, or joking.

Palestine was populated, and all ariable land was being farmed.

www.mideastweb.org...

Jews were only 10% of the population before the British occupation, and even less before that.

The land did not just rise up out of the sea, and Jews started moving in....

your link makes my point for me. it clearly states that arab immigration was linked to jewish populations centers.

also, if you had actually read the whole thing from the beginning, instead of just jumping to the numbers, you would have realized that the first half of the article is spent by saying in a nutshell "we have absolutely no idea what the actual numbers were prior to the british occupation..we're just guessing"

Hi Snafu:

It always amuses me when people of your sort have no real answer to give and rush in with the same old tired cliche "you're obviously anti-Semitic".

It's getting very tedious. You're obviously unschooled in the roots of Judaeism. Shame really.

Do you even know what the term "anti Semitic" is? And yet you bandy about these cliches as if you had some kind of working knowledge of these terms---like so many unschooled persons on these threadlets.

Are you even aware of the fact that by definitioin ALL Arabs are "Semitic" (descended from SHEM), whereas only the various offshoots of the socalled Safardi "Jews" have any true "semitic" links in their genome, despite their miscegenation over the centuries with the goyim? Have you even HEARD of the Khazarian conversion of the Turko-Ukranians in the 9th and 10th centuries CE (=common era, i.e. after the time of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean, i.e. "Jesus")?

Did you not know that over 90% of the worlds "Jews" are actually descendants FROM GENTILE NON SEMITIC CONVERTS TO JUDAIESM in the area around present day Kiev, and are therefore NON SEMITIC (i.e. Ashkenazim)?

Have you even heard of Arthur Koestler?

Can you even READ Paleo Hebrew or anything in all the various (contradictory) Torah versions (e.g. the Masoretic text, or the Samaritan Pentateuch or the DSS-A and DSS-B texts or the Paleo Hebrew Vorlage to the LXX (none of which match each other but that's another thread !) ? Can you even read anything in the Babylonian TALMUD?

If you don't even know what a "descendant of Shem" is, I would assume that you are not in much of a position to even being discussing these basic issues.

Maybe you should leave these discussions to more educated people who know what they are talking about (i.e. from "root causes") and can form more cogent opinions on the matter.

Just a thought.

oh please.....you cant find a good response to the stupid american christian's post so lets go on a big diatribe about his ignorance. get over yourself dude!

let me know when your done with your little tantrum and are ready to resume discussion, NEO.

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS
that Jews are the Master Race (whoops, wrong racists!) I mean er...the Chosen People that can do anything they like against the "stupid goyim" (to quote a phrase from the Babylonian Talmud which you probably cannot even read) ?

Well........?

...well......I can read the Babylonian Talmud - and I can tell you, that you either are not able to reed the texts, or you quote a Talmud - falsification.

This source provides the Babylonian Talmud - in hebrew.....try to find your quotation, please.

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS

Do you even know what the term "anti Semitic" is?

I know it - very well, believe me......What do you want to konw about Anisemitism?

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS

whereas only the various offshoots of the socalled Safardi "Jews" have any true "semitic" links in their genome

Sephardim are Jews who migrated through North Africa into Spain or Portugal....

The Jews from the Middle East are the edut hamizrach (or "Mizrahi" or "oriental Jews")

But to be a Jew is no matter of 'semetic links' - Jews are a nation, a people, no matter where we are born.

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS

Have you even HEARD of the Khazarian conversion of the Turko-Ukranians in the 9th and 10th centuries CE

You refer to the 9th and the 10 century? And what has been before that time?

The first authentic document relating to a large and well-organized Jewish community in Europe dates from 321, and refers to Cologne on the Rhine; it indicates that the legal status of the Jews there was the same as elsewhere in the Roman empire.

We Jews have been already there...


and furthermore....

...Jews from Iran, Iraq, Yemen, North Africa and European Ashkenazim all cluster together with other Semitic groups, with their origin in the Middle East.
A common geographical origin can be seen for all mainstream Jewish groups studied.

This genetic research has clearly refuted the once-current libel that the Ashkenazi Jews are not related to the ancient Hebrews, but are descendants of the Kuzar tribe...


Jewish Genes & Genealogy: The DNA Chain of Tradition

[edit on 30-9-2005 by Riwka]

Riwka:

It's spelled READ. Maybe you should do more of it.

As for SNAFU, he used the word "anti Semitic" with respect to some of my posts which is a term I DO NOT TAKE LIGHTLY on these threads---especially from persons who do not know a son of Shem when he sees one. (Which is the reason for my recent bombast.)

People, read around your subject a little more PLEASE, and do not confine yourself into your narrow little circle of bible-believing-buddies who tend to argue around in circles, like the blind leading the blind. Modern scholarly books and a lot of good, solid information is out there, but you have to make an effort !!

If you REALLY want to learn a little about the history of the Ashkenazim and the reason why for example most modern day "Ashkenazi Jews" are NOT genetically blood related to the Israelites or even the Canaanites, please read THE THIRTEENTH TRIBE by Arthur Koestler, who is a Jew himself, and a reputable scholar of more than 22 books on related subjects.

I'm certainly not going to write anything like a long essay about how the non-Ashkenazim are subdivided (i.e. the groups of what I generically call the "Sefardim" in the broader sense of the term to distinguish them from the Ashkenazim) but one thing is certain: the remnants of Palestinian Jews scattered around the Diaspora after the time of the Emperor Hadrian (post 138AD) have mixed (genetically) so thoroughly into the general population of the the (non Jewish) Goyim, that genetically, one must say that today there are no physically pure descendants from the Israelitish tribelets left around standing today in any meaningful sense of the word---too much miscegenation despite decades of inbreeding and forced separation policies in Europe during the middle ages.

And no amount of "wishful thinking" or even at times deliberate revisionist history including the mishandling of phyiscal evidence (e.g. the hiding and destruction of published materials of the Palestinian-Israeli genome researches of some Spanish geneticists recently, to cite one small example) on the part of Israelis or any other group who identifies themselves with the larger world Jewry can change that fact.











[edit on 30-9-2005 by NEOAMADEUS]

Riwka, are under the name of "rivka" in another forum? Just wondering...

I don't know if your jewish or not, I'm not but it's fairly easy to determine that Jews do have their own culture. I don't know about jewish genetics or anything but I'm confused what exaxtly are you trying to say?

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
Riwka, are under the name of "rivka" in another forum?

No.

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom

I don't know if your jewish or not,

Yes, I am a Jew, born in Israel

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom

I don't know about jewish genetics

No problem. Here we go:

• a person is a Jew if his mother is a Jew, regardless of who his father is.
  
  
• any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.
  

Neoamadeus tries to explain that the Jews from Europe " are no physically pure descendants from the Israelitish tribelets, because they mixed with non-jews."


But jews around the world have always also mixed with Non-Jews and there have always been conversions.

One very popular person who converted to Judaism has been Ruth from the Moabiters. Ruth is one of the female ancestors of King David.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Yeah, that may be so, ArchAngel.
In any event, your solution is what?
Cause if it is all about occupied, then the nation of Israel today is occupied land, correct?
So if those who advocate the removal of Jews from all occupied lands, then where will those millions of current Jews who inhabit the nation of Israel go?

Tibet, maybe?

To me, and many others occupied land is Gaza, the West Bank, Golon, and Cheeba Farms.

Israel behind the green line is my line.

The Jerusalem question is a bit more sticky, but generally I support Muslim control of the Dome.

Anything different shows Israel is not a partner for peace.

a person is a Jew if his mother is a Jew, regardless of who his father is.

That is not true for all Jews.

Most Samaritan, and Karaite Jews observe Patrilineal decent.