Iraq: Brit Soldiers Dressed As Arabs In car Packed With Explosives Captured

Originally posted by marg6043
So what the US is saying about all this evidence, anybody have any links to what our nation respond to all this?

I can not find much in the news.

There's plenty of mainstream coverage of this incident, however there is only evidence of an intelligence operation gone wrong, and a corrupt police force attempting to hold British special forces hostage, which wasn't gonna happen.

Yeah, no bombs.. but shooting into a crowd of civilians and wounding and killing Iraqi police is A-Okay!

Originally posted by QuietSoul
Yeah, no bombs.. but shooting into a crowd of civilians and wounding and killing Iraqi police is A-Okay!

It wouldn't be if it were true, and you are just assuming it is. Go back and read some of the more recent pages in this thread, it's come to light that the police force in Basra has been infiltrated by those not loyal to the government. The SAS were most likely there on an intelligence gathering mission to observe the activities of the police force and get a feel for who's who. Somebody in the police force may have become suspicious of them and confronted them, forcing them to try and escape, the police force then likely opened fire causing them to return fire. If the SAS were intending to kill, civilians or police, they would hit their targets, they do not shoot wildly, and as far as I know there were no casualties reported.

So yesterday, they "began firing on civilians in central Basra, wounding several, including a traffic police officer." and today, after the MoD has had time to spin it, they were mearly being confronted by an undercover police insurgent and defended themselves..

All the while driving around in an unmarked car, wearing civilian clothing..

Gotcha.. nice cover.

Well they were undercover? What do you expect on what was more than likely an intelligence gathering exercise?

And why would they start randomly firing at a group of civilians/police anyway? If it was apparantly true there is obviously a vital element missing.
And don't anyone even THINK of coming up with some 'they were trying to cause unrest' crap. Try and engage brain and think if that idea is in your head.
You don't send out a pair of SAS guys with a bootload of equipment to do something like that no matter what the occasion.

And one crucial point no-one has addressed:

If they were going about trying to stage bombings, which is what people are trying to imply.
Not only is there the question of 'where are the explosives', but why did they carry such a wide array of communications equipment? Seems a lot of stuff to try and cart off with you and it would be identifiable in any wreckage.

The equipment is clearly not appropiate in any way for some sort of staged bombing which some people sadly hope for and the only real thing left to debate is why they might have returned fire.

And why is it that as soon as more information is made available it's suddenly 'spin'.
If the media was as well controlled as some people try and make out, no speculation would be released in the first place and how the hell can anyone else know what is going on when the people involved barely do anyway?

I did also hear on the news today that apparantly they had been handed over to insurgents by the police force? So if that doesn't point to some corruption what does?

EDIT:

Checking a few pages back it's reported on here too that had been given over to the local Militia? So what the hell is going on there?

Sounds to me that something is rotten somewhere, and it isn't with us - not in this case anyway.

[edit on 20-9-2005 by AgentSmith]

Originally posted by QuietSoul
So yesterday, they "began firing on civilians in central Basra, wounding several, including a traffic police officer." and today, after the MoD has had time to spin it, they were mearly being confronted by an undercover police insurgent and defended themselves..

Yesterday's report was given by Iraqi police, who are not abiding by the government, but possibly Al Sadr, so believe it if you like, but if British special forces "began firing on civilians" with the intent to kill, there would be casualties. And I have heard no credible reports of civilians being wounded, only two police officers, who were probably firing on the SAS first, the SAS probably intentionally wounded them so as not to kill police they weren't sure were corrupt, that's my take. Also, the MoD did not spin it as them being confronted by undercover police, they haven't released that much, again, that was my take on what very possibly occured. Backed up by the fact there were no casualties by expert marksmen.

All the while driving around in an unmarked car, wearing civilian clothing..

It's not like they could get a good read on the activities of the police standing there in uniform. I think the police would suspect they were being watched, don't you?

If these guys were SAS, then I'm REALLY impressed at how their standards have slipped. I have a LOT of trouble believing that two SAS troopers could drive into a market, open fire wildly as claimed, and manage to NOT KILL anyone except one or two police officers in a heavily infiltrated police force. Hell, even if they were Marines I'm seriously impressed at how they slipped their standards. Even a BAD marksman should have managed to kill a couple of civilians in a packed market after shooting wildly.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
If these guys were SAS, then I'm REALLY impressed at how their standards have slipped. I have a LOT of trouble believing that two SAS troopers could drive into a market, open fire wildly as claimed, and manage to NOT KILL anyone except one or two police officers in a heavily infiltrated police force. Hell, even if they were Marines I'm seriously impressed at how they slipped their standards. Even a BAD marksman should have managed to kill a couple of civilians in a packed market after shooting wildly.

There were no casualties, and as I've stated it was proabably intentionally that way. They were likely confronted by police who may or may not have just been doing their job, so they SAS likely intentionally only wounded them in their attempt to escape. Those two men probably acted in the most noble manner, and are being accused of randomly opening fire on civilians (the civilians probably complete BS) and police.

That's EXACTLY the point I'm trying to make. If they were trying to plant a bomb to kill lots of civilians, then why not shoot up the market and kill lots of people when they were confronted by the police officer? If their mission was to kill lots of civilians, shooting into the crowded market would have worked just as well. If that was their mission they would have been blazing away at anyone that tried to stop them and could have made their escape. If this was an intel mission they wouldn't have been prepared to kill lots of people to get away, figuring that the British Government would get them out if they were caught.

I see, my sarcasm meter must be broken.

Who the hell needs enemies with so many people on the home team who go round implying the media is reliable when they are saying something bad against us but they are putting 'spin' on things when they say something good.

Jeez, all our real enemies must be wetting themselves laughing at us that we constantly shoot ourselves in the foot - on purpose!

Anyone would think some of you want us to be in the wrong and you want us to be evil and you want us to be destroyed.

If the western world is so crap and the Middle East is so peace loving, why doesn't everybody who thinks it move over there, I hear flights and housing are cheap at the moment.

[edit on 20-9-2005 by AgentSmith]

by AgentSmith
Checking a few pages back it's reported on here too that had been given over to the local Militia? So what the hell is going on there?

They were going to be held as chips in a prisoner-swap. Earlier this week, the Brits arrested 3 members of the Mehdi army, and the militia wanted them back.

But the Milita didn't get them did they... It was supposed to be the police that arrested them - why did they illegally hand them over to some Militia group? The point is the police must be corrupt. They should not be playing any part in 'hostage trading'. looks like any rumours of the SAS guys investigating police corruption are well grounded.

-------------------

In addition (but not related to your comment) I also think it's sad that when our people are in strife overseas both us and our allies manage to almost beat the supposed enemy at finger pointing and accusations with some wild hope for the accusations to be true. I guess I find it hurtful because I meet so many Servicepeople every day and they are nop different than everyone else. To hear people practically wishing them harm is actually quite sad when they are basically putting their lives on the line to try and keep our standard of living as well as possible.

[edit on 20-9-2005 by AgentSmith]

Did everyone remember when U.S and U.K troops bombed Iraq six months before the 'official' declaration of war to tempt Saddam to attack back and further provide a justification? Of course not; the media slipped that under the rug aswell.

This was a blatant lie on part of UK officials trying to insinuate that they were working undercover dressed up as Arabs shooting at police officers and with a car full of explosives; and to make matters worse, they stormed a jail and illegaly apprended thier soldiers whilse allowing 150 inmates to be set free. An absolute disregard on thier part of Justice and legality. Do ask yourselfs why such haste? Could they have not been more diplomatic?

They're perpetuating this war, case in point; this little skirmish.

Luxifero

Originally posted by Luxifero
Did everyone remember when U.S and U.K troops bombed Iraq six months before the 'official' declaration of war to tempt Saddam to attack back and further provide a justification? Of course not; the media slipped that under the rug aswell.

This was a blatant lie on part of UK officials trying to insinuate that they were working undercover dressed up as Arabs shooting at police officers and with a car full of explosives; and to make matters worse, they stormed a jail and illegaly apprended thier soldiers whilse allowing 150 inmates to be set free. An absolute disregard on thier part of Justice and legality. Do ask yourselfs why such haste? Could they have not been more diplomatic?

They're perpetuating this war, case in point; this little skirmish.

Luxifero

I don't remember the event you descibed about the 6 month premature bombing, I was following the events quite closely at the time but I must admit that one has escaped me. Do you have further details as I'd like to refresh my memory?

Anyway:

You seem to have missed some key points, I'll re-itereate for you:

1) There is no proof that there was a car full of explosives, infact the photo released by them shows everything BUT explosives. Including comms equipment that would be superficial to the plan that you are implying and actually cause more hastle in having to cart it around or run the risk of it being found and identified in nay wreckage (again - why bother having it in the first place).

2) Shooting up civilians seems rather unlikely, especially as they have admitted there were no civilian casualties. IF they did open fire they would have hit them is they wanted to, I dare say there were civilians present at the road block but firing in their vicinity hardly constitutes 'opening fire on them'.
You must have missed the bit where i said about engaging one's brain when even thinking about entertaining that idea considering the trunk load of inappropiate equipment they had if nothing else.

3) They stormed the jail - and found the men were not there! Worse than that, the police had given them to the local Militia! Now if that isn't proof of corruption alone what is? Looks like they were right in their actions.

4) And the inmates escaping is not confirmed I believe, and if it is true who cares! Geezs, if the police are corrupt maybe they didn't belong in there in the first place!

Oh, and why is it a blatant lie, by the way, that they were working undercover becasue they were dressed as arabs? What did you suggest they wear? Full BDU or a Santa outfit maybe?

[edit on 20-9-2005 by AgentSmith]

Originally posted by Luxifero
Did everyone remember when U.S and U.K troops bombed Iraq six months before the 'official' declaration of war to tempt Saddam to attack back and further provide a justification? Of course not; the media slipped that under the rug aswell.

Do you mean bombing anti-aircraft gun sites in enforcement of the no-fly zones, in which Saddam's men were constantly firing on our aircraft?

This was a blatant lie on part of UK officials trying to insinuate that they were working undercover dressed up as Arabs shooting at police officers and with a car full of explosives;

How do you know what really happened? And if the SAS were just shooting at police officers to kill them, don't you think they would've made at least one kill? And there was no car full of explosives, proven by our dear Syrian Sister, maybe you should catch up before posting.

and to make matters worse, they stormed a jail and illegaly apprended thier soldiers whilse allowing 150 inmates to be set free. An absolute disregard on thier part of Justice and legality. Do ask yourselfs why such haste? Could they have not been more diplomatic?

Damn right special forces are not going to be diplomatic when it comes to allowing their men to be handed over to a militia.

They're perpetuating this war, case in point; this little skirmish.

Case irrelevant, there are two sides of this story, only those who were there know the real truth, the side you choose to believe is the corrupt police force who were going to hand British soldiers over to the Medhi army.

Originally posted by AgentSmith
But the Milita didn't get them did they... It was supposed to be the police that arrested them - why did they illegally hand them over to some Militia group? The point is the police must be corrupt. They should not be playing any part in 'hostage trading'. looks like any rumours of the SAS guys investigating police corruption are well grounded.

I'm not sure if the militia got them, but the fact is that they were not in the jail when they were rescued - they were in a local safe house that belonged to the militia.

The police in Basra are definitely corrupt. They have been infiltrated by men loyal to al Sadr. They increasingly refuse to follow orders from Baghdad.

One theory holds that the two Brits were gathering intelligence about the police force.

-------------------

In addition (but not related to your comment) I also think it's sad that when our people are in strife overseas both us and our allies manage to almost beat the supposed enemy at finger pointing and accusations with some wild hope for the accusations to be true. I guess I find it hurtful because I meet so many Servicepeople every day and they are nop different than everyone else. To hear people practically wishing them harm is actually quite sad when they are basically putting their lives on the line to try and keep our standard of living as well as possible.

[edit on 20-9-2005 by AgentSmith]

I hear you. But if you point that out you will be labelled a sycophant, a warmongerer, a sheeple, or worse.

Originally posted by jsobecky
I hear you.

But if you point that out you will be labelled a sycophant, a warmongerer, a sheeple, or worse.

Yes I know, sad isn't it.. But don't worry! Luckily I am already far worse, apparantly! I have been accused of being a dis-info agent or simply a government official!

Wow, I wish I was...

Unfortunatly a lot of people seem to think that your either a sheep or your 'enlightened', they don't understand that some things the government does is good, but sometimes for the wrong reasons.
And they don't understand that some things done are bad, but for the right reasons.
It's the old 'You either with me or against me' thing like in StarWars.
Funny actually, I always thought that only computers work in 0's and 1's and the human brain was far more complex and capable of reasoning, however that is obviously not always the case.

Anyway... getting back to reality - I still don't care anyway because it's damn well true and people shouldn't be afraid to say it!
Sick really that so many of our own people will so easily defend and justify these so called 'freedom fighters' but so, so easily criticise and attack our own people.

[edit on 20-9-2005 by AgentSmith]

OK, forgive me if I missed it, but no one seems to be asking the following question:

Just how undercover could two white guys be in Iraq?

Sure, I understand they could be posing as 'rogue' or 'corrupt' or 'disillusioned' british troops, mercenaries of some sort or other, maybe even russians, but let's face it, at the end of the day, even these sorts aren't going to be trusted at any significant level by any insurgents worth their salt.

Clearly, if they are SAS, they were up to something important and consequential, but I can't figure out just what it is they were doing that couldn't have been done by normal troops or police, given that they aren't arabic.

-koji K.

Some the arabs are pretty white looking I believe. And it's difficult to tell in a car from a distance anyway. They would still stand out less than a couple of guys in BDU and carrying weapons standing on a tank anyway.

[edit on 20-9-2005 by AgentSmith]