Aurora. Yes!

Originally posted by Ox
ok.. Firstly I have to thank SimonGray and those who have been backing me on this, but I still have to stand by what I've written. People have said "its described differently than what I've heard" ok. I can give explanation to that, I've not seen it first hand and I doubt either have you. So, somewhere speculation is coming into a conversation. To address the opinions on law breaking, who hasn't broken the law? gotten a speeding ticket? now don't come back and say "but a speeding ticket and Aurora are two different things?"... isn't the law the law? I can understand the doubt, but as I said, sometimes you just have to believe. Yes my friend is a trusted friend, yes he has TS clearance and who knows what different contractors share behind closed doors? I don't and honestly (without being rude) neither does anyone but the ones involved..

Hmm, well we can come back to say that "a speeding ticket and Aurora are two different things." Because not only are they two different things, but the revealing of Top Secret, Special Access projects is considered treason, and treason is punishable by death. Last time I checked, Speeding tickets get fines.

Shattered OUT...

Ok, now you're arguing just to argue, so let's argue.. Speeding tickets get fines? yeah..so.. All crimes have fines attached to them? trafficking of illicit substances has a mandatory sentence and... a fine.. murder has a mandatory sentence ...and a fine.. and treason.. wouldn't it be treason if I were divulging DEFINATE information to other countries or governments? for use against my own? so.. let's not argue, I posted something I believe in, which is my priveledge as a member of this site, its not like I posted some utter garbage like "my dogs squeeky toy was raped by a demonic spirit" is it?

Ox,
I gotta go along with the general consensus here and say this guy's story sounds highly dubious, I mean it would actually be more credible if the guy did not have the clearance and just overheard others associated with the program discussing it among themselves.

IF the aircraft we enthusiasts commonly refer to as the "Aurora" truely exists, it is most certainly a Special Access Project (SAP). For Ox's friend to discuss an SAP that he is supposedly working on is just not done by rational individuals who understand the consequences.

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
... What we are debating is the fact that a Software writer from Northrop, would have specific knowledge and information regarding a Special Access program under development by LockHeed Martin.

Shattered OUT...

I wonder if it would interest anyone that Northrop-Grumman is actually a major sub-contractor on Lockheed's F-22 Raptor?

I only bring that up because it is not only possible that a Northrop employee could be on a Lockheed SAP, it is very probable, especially someone from their avionics and navigation software division.

What is unlikely is that someone working on software development for a certain SAP would have intimate knowledge of the entire program they are associated with, as these things are very compartmented and to use a metaphor, the left hand never knows what the right hand is doing - only the head sees the whole picture.

...And to go one step further, if it is that difficult for a worker to know what is going on with the project he is assigned to - (in this case suposedly Aurora), how much more difficult and improbable would it be for that same worker to have intimate knowledge of a project he is not associated with - (a triangular craft)?

Originally posted by deltaboy
its not like Ox's frend violated the law by actually telling where or how many aircraft or wats its capabilities. all he says it that its Lockheed's department and dats dat. its almost like i cannot confirm or deny in a way. its almost like he says go look to Lockheed instead of us.

There are certain protocols one is required to observe if they are associated with a TS/SAP and in most cases to acknowledge it's very existence is a violation of that protocol. Such behavior, even to one's spouse not only jeopardizes their employment, it jeopardizes their freedom.

I hate to sound so negative Ox, I certainly don't think you're blowing smoke - but I'm skeptical... sorry.

Here is a sidenote that some here may find interesting - at least it's something else to consider:

A co-worker of mine was doing some installs on a Destroyer sitting in Chespeake Bay a few years ago. There was a training session going on in the radar room and at the time this ship had the 48Echo radar system, (it has since been upgraded).
The officer in charge of the training session was away from the screen when one of the guys at the screen said something about, "here's something coming out of Langley...". My "fly on the wall" friend was in close enough proximity to see the screen also - as the trainees were discussing the information coming out on the info screen positioned above the radar screen and commenting on it being a military aircraft, possibly stealth because of the lack of information available on the screen, and how you can tell and all that... typical trainee conversation.

Once the plane was out over the Atlantic, two or three of the guys at the screen said something like, "What is that!?" Everyone was pointing at the screen and the speed tail on the triangle that indicates an aircraft. The speed tail kept getting longer and longer and at one point one of the guys exclaimed "That's over Mach 4! What th' hell is that?"
Another trainee said something like, "It's getting faster! Look at that mother---- go!"
About that time the training officer came over, looked at the screen, stepped over to the wall and hit the big red button with the sign over it that says, "Do not Push!"... suddenly all gear in the room went dark, computers, everything.

The training officer then announced, "Gentlemen, you are to forget what you saw here tonight... is that understood?" There was a chorus of "aye aye" and after the officer made a phone call they powered everything back up.

Disclaimer: As I said, a co-worker who is also a close friend related this story to me and he has always been a pretty straight-shooting guy and not prone to tell exagerated tales - so I believed him and would not relay this story to you if I considered him unreliable.



There was another time when a former co-worker was relating a tech issue he was having with some prototype avionics his company had him working on.

He said that he had seen some airspeed figures in the logs that just didn't make sense. I asked him what he meant and he said he was seeing Mach 4+ numbers. After asking all the usual troubleshooting questions and having him tell me he had done everything I suggested, I asked him who the client was.
His reply was "DARPA".

I asked him if he had considered that the figures could be accurate - after all the client WAS DARPA.... Then we both agreed that we should NOT discuss the issue anymore.

I have no idea if he violated any NDA's or classifed protocols - and I don't want to know.
Neither one of us knew what vehicle the avionics came off of, but it certainly is fun to speculate.

So there are my little war stories... flame away folks!

Originally posted by Ox
..yeah maybe I should have named my thread a little differently..

As far as I can tell, this is Ox's only real mistake.
If he would've titled it something like "I heard some things about Aurora from a buddy", I don't think this would be that big of a deal.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
And if someone gave him classified information, by not reporting that person, he's already breaking the law.

And by passing along classified information to someone else like you, whether or not you have a clearance, he is also breaking the law.

And if you are in possesion of information which you know to be classified and improperly transmitted and you do not report this felony, then you are breaking the law, too.

As far as his buddy leaking sensitive information, I don't quite see what the big stir is.
After all, is this not abovetopsecret.com?
I mean, come on! If it really bugs you that Ox's buddy, and of course lets not forget Ox himself, are commiting treason by commenting about it, then why are you even looking at a post about Aurora anyway? As a TS project, what could possibly be in a thread titled "Aurora. Yes!" that wasn't either classified or pure speculation?
I'm not arguing the fact that if his friend was telling the truth then he was breaking the law. I'm simply enjoying the irony of calling a potential "leaker" a felon, here on ATS
Heck, the general public wouldn't even have a clue about Aurora if it hadn't have been for its name showing up on a budget report which, accidental or not, was also a leak. Without that we wouldn't have anything to speculate about.

Anyways, interesting post Ox.
History will reveal whether it's actually true or just watercooler BS, but I'm always interested in hearing more about things that I shouldn't know about, hearsay or not

[edit on 28-9-2005 by Shades of Grey]

Firstly I want to thank you guys for the support, as I've been reamed a little over this thread. Now, I would like to clear something up. As Intelgurl said in her posts of conversations she's had with friends, My friend is a trust person and I happen to believe in our conversation. I may be a little skeptical about it but I find no reason for him to lie or bs me at all. As for the rants about treason.. Yeah ok? I feel the public deserves to know what's going on, and I know someone's going to say "but its a secret".. No, its deception, its control, its the government saying "the sky isn't blue, its orange" even though I can see the sky and know for a fact its blue, just like the government saying "Area 51 doesn't exsist" .. oh? people go there, I've seen photos.. but it doesn't exsist? hmm I've seen pictures of an awesome black triangle flying through the sky, but it also doesn't exsist. As I've said, I have to believe what I was told, I can remain a little skeptical but there's no reason for my friend to lie to me.. Keep the posts coming.. this is fun

I've stayed away from posting on this thread cause of the flaming going on but I do want to say that I've heard intelgurls story a couple times now and I'm really interested to hear if she has anythoughts on her own story bout the mach 4 +. Ox your entiltled to wondering about all of this stuff. Heck I wonder too im jut really stuck on how ppl think that they can get any further then just trading there info/stories.

They way we get further with this is to research, I appreciate any posts that are made though, skeptic or not. The more that comes out and the more we can believe or try to believe what we find out or hear/see.. We've got to step up and take everything into consideration that comes to us and not just blow it off and tell the posting person its just steam being blown in their face.
I mean to be honest, we know SOMETHING exsists, we know there are aircraft out there being tested and flown with technology that would scare the wits out of you. What we don't know is which aircraft is which and what its capable of.. right? Is that a fair argument?

fair arguement but I really think its next to impossible to get info like that till the goverment wants us to get it. now mind you ppl do go to these places and bring back info and create ideas on them but for someone who lives in canada and cann't do any great research its makes things harder.

You said it Canada .. "People create ideas".. As this was a conversation I had with someone and was information given to me that I believed to be true and not some crazy idea I conjured in my head, I still have to believe in what I posted, if I were my own crazy idea then I would expect to be roasted like I was, although I expected a little roasting anyway.
The truth is, we may never know if Aurora ever exsists or ever exsisted.. Just like Boeing's "Bird of Prey" didn't "exsist" until it was declassified and unveiled.. for all we know Aurora may be a new classified military tugboat.
My point is, everyone one is entitled to believe what they want to.

My problem with the aurora though is the people where speculating about it a couple of years before it was revelied but we have been talking about aurora for like 20 years? If aurora was flying then i guess it could be still kinda like how the 52's are still flying. I'm wondering has anyone created a thread that is devoted to aurora information or stories? If there isn't I say someone needs to put together one and manage the content in it so we dont get huge convos and keep it mostly facts. anyways just an idea for me its hard to keep track of all the ideas behind aurora.

An appropriate quote to this situation would be:

"Men, in general, are quick to believe that which they wish to be true". - Gaius Julius Caesar

I do not believe the facts surrounding the story, on many different levels and for many different reasons. I do believe, however, that the conversation probably did take place. I will only say that I have been the recipient of many "revalations" along these lines, and they generally are pure, unadulterated BS. Sometimes even official, OPSEC-generated BS.

Re-read the quote.........

Originally posted by Ox
Firstly I want to thank you guys for the support, as I've been reamed a little over this thread. Now, I would like to clear something up. As Intelgurl said in her posts of conversations she's had with friends, My friend is a trust person and I happen to believe in our conversation. I may be a little skeptical about it but I find no reason for him to lie or bs me at all. As for the rants about treason.. Yeah ok? I feel the public deserves to know what's going on, and I know someone's going to say "but its a secret".. No, its deception, its control, its the government saying "the sky isn't blue, its orange" even though I can see the sky and know for a fact its blue, just like the government saying "Area 51 doesn't exsist" .. oh? people go there, I've seen photos.. but it doesn't exsist? hmm I've seen pictures of an awesome black triangle flying through the sky, but it also doesn't exsist. As I've said, I have to believe what I was told, I can remain a little skeptical but there's no reason for my friend to lie to me.. Keep the posts coming.. this is fun

You're right you know, we are entitled to our own beliefs, we are allowed to think what we are, however, wherever you go, you will always encounter hostility just as you have here, sometimes less civilized.

And like you believe that secrets should be revealed, and that people should be told everything, I believe differently.

And I will tell you why I feel this way, because I understand why you think people should be told things, because believe it or not, at some point, I did think as you did, we all had a right to know.

Now be it the everyday misconceptions, or the decade long lies and fakes, projects such as the "Aurora" are kept secret from the public, not because the government wants to feel in control, or because they think that the people are inept, and incapable of accepting what they have been told, but because it's for national security. If the entire nation, the entire world knew that America had a new High-speed, high-altitude Recon plane spying on far off nations periodically, the enemy nations would like to know how they are doing this, and how they can stop it, and if it is cause enough to go to war for. You see, sometimes it's better to keep tabs on other people without them knowing it.

We are kept in the dark from humanity's most advanced technological advancements because it is in our best interest, the government isn't ALL blood sucking creatures, there are men in there with consciences, and believe it or not, those same men, are the ones looking out for yours, and my safety. They believe that we need to defend what we have, for the greater good of what we ALL believe in, not just individual people. Now, there are exceptions, there are some men that are just pure satanical monsters that don't care about anyone else but themselves, but they aren't all like that.

Also, for aircraft like the "TR3-B"; those kind of aircraft would prove that aliens are real, that we have come in contact with them, and that their technology has been accepted as part of our own. This..., this scares people. The thought that an advanced alien race has been helping our government with recon, not just that, but the pure thought of an Alien Race scares people, do you possibly think that the general masses(not just a select group, but the WHOLE public) would be capable of taking all of that in and saying "O that's cool, lets go on with our daily lives."?

The answer is no. People will want to know everything, and take action against it, even if it isn't in their best of interests. For the general masses, doesn't always think as a whole, each person in there thinks for themselves, and then conflictions arise, for everyone is different and thinks differently.

So, now you know my reasons for believe in why that secrets are important, and for supporting TS/SAP like "Aurora". We are all entitled to our beliefs, in it's in our constitution, but sometimes, some of the ammendments conflict with each other, and the conflictions must be weighed, to see what is the best interest of EVERYONE.

Shattered OUT...

Hey Shattered, great post.. Truly a great post.. And to be honest I completely understand why we're not told about these things, the problems these things could cause with other countries.. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be amazing to know the truth, to see this technology in action.. I mean, the first time I saw the "Euro-copter" in action it was doing loops over Sydney harbour in my home country of Australia and it was just cool to see. I mean, I'm sure it will all come out in due time, I think there should be a certain amount of disclosure. Thanks again for the post Shattered.. Jeff

I'd say there's a good chance this person could know about Aurora. He being a software programmer could mean he has participated in writing the software for the flight computer systems. All computerbased operatingsystems need software, don't they?

Aurora is the B2 bomber, you do know this right?

It was the code name used for budgetary reasons.

And given it's shape, it wouldn't suprise me if intial prototypes were trianges.



[edit on 28-9-2005 by crisko]

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
Ok, this is funny, because things are kept secret for a REASON.

Perhaps it's for our better safety that things are secret? The bigger thing about human nature that you need to realize, is the tendency to go and backstab each other.

So I whole heartily agree with the US keeping secrets, there is nothing wrong with it, anyone who things secrets should be told, really need to revise their tactics.

Shattered OUT...

Ok thank you for pointing out my mad idiocy. I just don't see why governments need to be ruled by secrecy.

Phlake.. thankyou, that's the point I was trying to make when I first posted this and received all the toasting over it.
Crisko.. do I know that Aurora is the B-2 bomber? uhh no.. and how do you?.. and never in this thread have I said that Aurora is possibly triangle shaped.. I DID say that I was told it supposedly looks like a yf-23.. so ahh.. you have me at a loss.. I'd like to know where you got that Aurora is the B-2 bomber. let me know.. thanks. Jeff

Originally posted by Ox
I'd like to know where you got that Aurora is the B-2 bomber. let me know.. thanks. Jeff

That was the official government statement about what the line item "Aurora" was.

Originally posted by intelgurl
That was the official government statement about what the line item "Aurora" was.

en.wikipedia.org...

The B-2 started life as a "black program" known as the High Altitude Penetrating Bomber (HAPB), it then became the Advanced Technology Bomber (ATB) and used the project code word Senior Cejay, it later became the B-2 Spirit. An estimated 23 billion dollars was secretly spent for research and development on the B-2 in the 1980s. An additional cost driver was that the mission was changed in 1985 from a high altitude bomber to a low altitude penetrating bomber, which required a major redesign. Because the development of the B-2 was one of the best kept secrets of all USAF programs, there was no opportunity for public criticism of its massive cost during the development process. The first B-2 was publicly displayed on November 22, 1988, when it was rolled out of its hangar at Air Force Plant 42, Palmdale, California, where it was manufactured. Its first flight was on July 17, 1989. The B-2 Combined Test Force, Air Force Flight Test Center, Edwards Air Force Base, California, is responsible for flight testing the engineering, manufacturing and development aircraft.

well then we already have another name for the B-2 which is Senior Cejay. why another name for the same stealth bomber for the budget? no doubt the Aurora was meant for these funds.


[edit on 29-9-2005 by deltaboy]