Gun and Property rights issues in the aftermath of Katrina .(please watch video clip)

Originally posted by Bout Time
We’ve had peaceful protesters brutalized, babies to old ladies, with crowd control force reserved for armed assailants, for some time now. It might feel good to have more widespread acknowledgement over something one has been sounding the claxon over for some time.....if not for the subject matter & its obvious continuance.

What I find kind of unique about this tape is there can be no justification for this action. In most cases there is a grey area and the police, rightfully so most of the time, are given the benifit of the doubt.

In this case there is just an Old Woman, in her own home, not bothering ANYONE.

I dont see any grey area here

Originally posted by Souljah
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Was this Granny a part of a Well Regulated Militia?

No, she is a 'people'.

Firstly - you can't blame this guy, he was just doing his Job and following Orders.

I most certainly can blame this guy. Whatever his reasons for doing what he did, he did do it. He decided it was more important to keep his job than to stand up for what he surely knew was the Right Thing. And although I'm sure he had 'disarming training' and he practiced it well, it was not necessary to flog this woman. She was not a threat.

When it gets to the point where I either keep my job or attack an old lady and bring her down, I will give up my job. I will not do that, even to feed my family.

Does a Crisis, like the Katrina Aftermath, give the Right to the federal goverment to remove those rights?

I don't know the legalities behind that, (is it Marshal Law?) but if we could trust our government to have our best interests at heart, I mean really trust them, then I would be a lot more willing to put my safety in their hands, but they have proven to be unworthy of my trust. And when they start removing rights and bashing little old ladies around, my distrust is confirmed.

Imagine a Video of a Young, Black Man being stormed in his house ...So - why would people look differently at these two events? Just because he is Black - that makes him a "born criminal"?

No, not because he was black, but because he was young and a man, and perhaps able to 'take a flooring' better than an old woman, I woudn't be quite so incensed. But yes, I would still be openly outraged about the situation.

The situation is getting complicated - and soon it will get out of hand, especially if the Basic Rights of the US Citizens will be removed and trampled on in cases like this one.

Agreed.

But what happens to Rights during a Quarantine Orders?

Is there a quarantine? I would think if there was a quarantine, people would be told, for one thing and there would be a perimeter set up that people couldn't enter or leave, but there has been nothing (that I've seen) mentioned about a quarantine. That just has nothing to do with guns.
(Correct me if I'm wrong about the quarantine.)

Imagine the Avian Flu Outbreak in a Major City.....

Well, those are good questions, but that's not happening right now. We may be a little more accepting or understanding if there was a real threat to the population at large, but I would STILL not accept the behavior in that tape as rational or necessary.


[edit on 14-9-2005 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Amuk
Does anyone but me find it odd that you and skippy both defend this action?

The very same thought occurred to me. No kidding. I don't get it.

I don't think Souljah's 'defending' it so much as playing devil's advocate, trying to look at all sides, but I could be wrong. Souljah? ... Buddy? ...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
[I don't think Souljah's 'defending' it so much as playing devil's advocate, trying to look at all sides, but I could be wrong. Souljah? ... Buddy? ...

How many sides are there to a 250 pound man beating down a 70 year-old woman?

Check the link in my edited response to Souljah, it explains the Second Amendment MUCH better then my pain-killer addled mind could.

Originally posted by Amuk
Check the link in my edited response to Souljah, it explains the Second Amendment MUCH better then my pain-killer addled mind could.

Perfect! I love it! I wish everyone would read it.

"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed.' -J. Neil Schulman

So sorry about your pain... I know about pain... But your 'pain-killer addled mind' seems to be top notch.

Souljah, sometimes I just don't get you. Try not to think in absolutes. I would have a problem with a large man jumping any of the following:

a woman
a child
a senior
someone disabled

She qualifies on 2 counts, maybe three by looking at the way she was walking. A young guy is NOT a fair analogy(notice color wasn't mentioned)?

I'm only 210 but I would love to show this guy the meaning of "use of force".

[edit on 14-9-2005 by intrepid]

What the "BodyGuard" saw in that room was:

GUN!!!

Not an Old and Weary Lady.

Don't get me Wrong here people - I do NOT agree with this man Jumping the Old Lady! I wouldn't do that myself. But - that's his JOB. J - O - B. And if he stands down and says: hey I will not do that, his Boss will say - Fine! I will find somebody who can. So - cleary this or some other Gorilla will soon come and take this Old Lady away. No matter what she says, no matter what You says and no matter what I say against it. She broke the LAW. And RoboCop comes and does his Duty. Plain and Simple from his point of view.

But then again - he could stand down and says, okey Lady you can keep your gun and we can leave you here, but you will probably Die of Toxic Waters and all kinds of Crap found in New Orleans

Still - there was a Person with a GUN in that House.

What about a Caucasian 15-Year Old Boy with a Gun?

Would you Jump him?

Or 18-Year Asian Hischool Cheerleader with a 12-Gauge shotgun?

Or 77-Year Latino Old GrandPa with his Winchester Rifle?

Or 25-Year Old African American named Jackson with an AK47?

They all represent a Certain Level of Danger.

And if the Orders are to Disarm - well then they must ALL lay down their Weapons.

In Which Case its "Not" OK to Disarm them?

If They are Members of "Militia"?

What Militia was that? The Militia of New Orleans? Under who's Command?

The Race does not mean anything here - only the Weapon in the Hands.

But that is a Dilemma You and I can afford to have - and not the Soldiers in Duty in such an Area like post Katrina New Orleans - a City of Chaos.

All that that RoboCop saw was that Gun in the Lady's hand that could go off any second and he wanted to say "CLEAR" and remove it - if she did not Want that to do herself.

Would it be better if she aimed it at the Soldiers and they Shot her?

I think she got off pretty Good considering the Situation - maybe Others in New Orleans were NOT so "Lucky" as she was and ended up in one of those 25.000 Bodybags FEMA ordered.

Originally posted by Souljah

In Which Case its "Not" OK to Disarm them?

If They are Members of "Militia"?

If you will have read my link you would have understood that she does NOT have to be a member of a milita to own a weapon.

I suggest you go back and read the link

It doesnt matter the age, race, sex, etc of the person.

What matters is the the Constitution says its against the law.

Originally posted by Souljah

But then again - he could stand down and says, okey Lady you can keep your gun and we can leave you here, but you will probably Die of Toxic Waters and all kinds of Crap found in New Orleans

Which BOTH were her right under the Constitution

Originally posted by Souljah
The Race does not mean anything here - only the Weapon in the Hands.

You were the one to bring up race.

[edit on 14-9-2005 by Amuk]

Your post is irrelevent Souljah, it addresses nothing as it pertains to THIS situation. Disarm her? Why didn't he just reach out and take it from her hand? She was holding it like a club. I'm fairly sure that his hand, use 2 if necessary, could have done it. Not tackle her. You do know that as people age their bone mass decreases? Hell, he could have broken her back.

I can't see how you could defend this action.

Ahh people.. lets see.. the old lady was if i remember right.. In her house.. on her property and THEY came into HER house and was ORDERING her around..

She I believe repeatedly asked them to go away??? am i wrong so far??

from this point she has a gun, which she is defending her property.

That there is what we call an admendent of the Constitution.. can anyone guess what Admendment that would be.. I choose not to add it cause I am sick of showing people the same damn thing over and over..

So now they beat piss out of here and take her weapon, then remove her from HER house.

can we guess what other Admendemnt was trampled on here??

You get a cookie if you guess right.

In other words they forced this old lady out forced evacuation.. so what there was a forced evac here in PA when the floods hit.. nothing like this went down.. this is all just a game to see how far we will break.. sooner or later that will hit.. for now we sit by and look retarded while our PRIVLEDGES get trampled on.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed

The phrase containing the word "militia", and the phrase containing the word "people" are seperated by a comma, hence signifying two seperate ideas.

A well regualted militia would be an entity totally seperate from that of ordinary citizens, since a well regulated militia was kept standing, even times of peace.

Please do not erode one of our most basic liberties any more than the liberals have done already.

Originally posted by Souljah
But that is a Dilemma You and I can afford to have - and not the Soldiers in Duty in such an Area like post Katrina New Orleans - a City of Chaos.

So I guess that every post you have ever made about American Soldiers actions in Iraq was dishonest? After all you should give them the benifit of the doubt in say Bagdad a City of Chaos?

It's all good.. The day they come to my house and try to remove me and/or force me to give up my weapons is the day I'll make national news going out in a hellfire of bullets and blood.

This country is crap. I'd rather die defending the whats left of the constitution then cower and submit.

They're going to give you & me & everyone that choice.



What I didn't link together as much as I should have before:

A good cop, as corny as it may sound, is a samuri. He can subdue without killing and will protect the weak, even if that means possible personal harm or countermanning an order. This _ _ _ _ did none of the above. What's more, he illustrated not the slightest of reasoned thought prior to his action.
People wondered how folks got marched into ovens by the very same men who grew up a few blocks over from them.....that's how.

OK - Let me say this Again:

Regarding the Topic of this Thread:

Gun and Property rights issues in the aftermath of Katrina - when talking about This Old Lady Being Brutally Disarmed - I do not agree with the Approach of the Security Forces and the Way in which they removed the Weapon. They could have solved that Situation alot Easier and alot less painfull and less violent But they didn't. Which tell me only one thing: there is something terribly wrong with the Country that this happened in. Do you think that this Granny would have been disarmed in a more civilized way in Canada?

Then there is the Issue of other "Brutal Engagements by the Security Forces (Police) that mister Bout Time Mentioned earlier:

Originally posted by Bout Time
We’ve had peaceful protesters brutalized, babies to old ladies, with crowd control force reserved for armed assailants, for some time now.

By Peaceful Protesting citizens of United States are Also enjoying of their Rights as Americans - the First Amendements, the Freedom of Expression. And if the Protests are performed in a peaceful manner, the Police has no right to Disperse the Crowd in a brutal way - like they almost ALWAYS do. And yes there are some "Weak" people among this crowds also. So it's OK for the Cops to use all means necessary in "Crowd Manegment" - but its NOT OK to disarm this Old Lady in a manner that she was disarmed with?

I never like using the Argument of Force.

I prefer using the Force of the Argument.

And I don't like ANY Armed Forces.

By Using them to Solve Problems of the State, you are starting a Vicious Circle, which can not be Stopped that Easily as it has been started. And US Troops in Downtown Baghdad have started that circle 3 years ago - has it been stopped yet? When will it be? When every "Terrorists" or "Insurgent" is Dead? When is that going to Happen? Do you seriously think that you can eliminate this Problem by Killing alot of People? HA!

Soldiers on the Battlefield are Always faced with some or other sort of Dilemma - but they are not Payed to Think nor do they have the privilege of doing that. And I do not blame them. I blame the People who sent them there. They are the Root of this Evil. They started this Circle of Violence by sending Soldiers to War. And War is what they shall receive in Return. Soldiers then do what they are trained For - and who Trained them and what kind of Lessons they learned are shown in Combat.


What also bothers me, that you are SOOOOO enraged and disturbed by this Video of the Granny being stormed by - and she looks to me that she is alive today. But when it comes to People slaughtering each other in far away countries - like Sudan or any African country engulfed in flames of Civil Wars - people quickly loose all Sympathy and all their sense of Altruism. Why is that? I think that the guy that removed the weapon from the hand of that old lady did that in a totally wrong way - and he could solved the situation pretty calm. But there are FAR WORSE things that happened in New Orleans that we do not know about and that we did not see the Video of. Remember - the City has 3/4 African American population - how many Videos of Disarming THEM did we see? Hmmm? Probably for A REASON! If they STORMED that Old and Fragile Lady in a Manner that we saw on the Video, can you IMAGINE what they did to BLACK Poeple? Do you think they deserved any better treatment?

I seriously Doubt that.

Facts are that Katrina Releif are a complete and utter Disaster from the Start. This Event just prooves what kind of Chaotic situation New Orleans really is, so the RoboCops jump Old Ladies with Guns in their Own Homes.

Pretty Distrubing if you ask me.

But I belive that this is not the Worst of Events that happened down there and certainly not an example of how things SHOULD be handled there.

I think something Far more Terrible is the event, where several Patients were left in a Hospital to themselves and their Sickness - without anybody to help or rescue them.

How Ignorant is THAT?

"I'd rather die......."

They're going to give you & me & everyone that choice.

So, what "side" are you on?

It's kind of tough to see where you stand on private gun ownership as well as property issues. Is the Constitution valid or not (in your opinion)?

Most of your points have NOTHING to do with topic which is the American Government violating its contract to its people.


But I will try to touch on some of them anyway.

Originally posted by Souljah
What also bothers me, that you are SOOOOO enraged and disturbed by this Video of the Granny being stormed by - and she looks to me that she is alive today. But when it comes to People slaughtering each other in far away countries - like Sudan or any African country engulfed in flames of Civil Wars - people quickly loose all Sympathy and all their sense of Altruism. Why is that?

Besides having NOTHING to do with the American Constitution being violated what is your point?

The events in Sudan are none of my business, and before you say "But what about Iraq" remember I was against going in there to save them from Sadam....again none of our business.

You damn us for being in Iraq and damn us for NOT being in the Sudan. The truth of the matter is if we DID invade Sudan tomorrow you would post about the horrible Americans invading the peace loving Sudanese.

I think that the guy that removed the weapon from the hand of that old lady did that in a totally wrong way - and he could solved the situation pretty calm.

you miss the point.

He had NO RIGHT to disarm her to begin with. She had broken NO LAW. It would be the same if our mayor said to arrest everyone driving a green car. It would not be a legal arrest.

NO LAW CAN SUPERSEDE THE CONSTITUTION

But there are FAR WORSE things that happened in New Orleans that we do not know about and that we did not see the Video of. Remember - the City has 3/4 African American population - how many Videos of Disarming THEM did we see? Hmmm? Probably for A REASON! If they STORMED that Old and Fragile Lady in a Manner that we saw on the Video, can you IMAGINE what they did to BLACK People? Do you think they deserved any better treatment?

I seriously Doubt that.

first you complain about race and then you say it doesn't matter, than you complain again.

Be honest. Was the old lady just not brown enough for you to worry about? Before you become indignent remember you are claiming I dont care about the blacks because they are black, but only YOU are bringing up race. Maybe its just the fact she was American? Its just a crime if done to Iraqis? If this had been a film of Americans Body Slamming Terrorist MEN you would have 20 posts the next day saying how horrible it was.

The poor Blacks probably suffered MOST from being ILLEGALLY disarmed, after all they didn't have private security protecting them. Historically the poor are the ones to suffer the MOST from gun laws, since they live in the high crime areas.

They had no right to disarm ANY law abiding citizen, black, white, brown, male, female, etc.

Facts are that Katrina Relief are a complete and utter Disaster from the Start.

Could not agree more

I think something Far more Terrible is the event, where several Patients were left in a Hospital to themselves and their Sickness - without anybody to help or rescue them.

How Ignorant is THAT?

The people that Left them should be drug into the street and shot like dogs.......but again, what does it have to do with them violating the Constitution?


It just surprised me that I hand you a REAL reason to bash the American Government and you side with the thugs.

go figure




[edit on 14-9-2005 by Amuk]

Originally posted by intrepid
I'm only 210 but I would love to show this guy the meaning of "use of force".

[edit on 14-9-2005 by intrepid]

210 years old?good for you old fella.

She gave him a bit of curry as well


Souljah

Firstly - you can't blame this guy, he was just doing his Job and following Orders. If he does not follow orders he gets fired. If he gets fired, he won't feed his children. Simple. Who has issued the Order to Disarm armed Civilans, or so-called Militia? The Second Amendement of the US clearly raises a few questions:

I can`t believe a guy with obvious education and some intelligence can say this.I dont know if this was jumped on i bet it was,in catching up with reading the thread i gotta voice mine to this.So what if he was ordered shoot to kill?
does that surpass the need to feed his children if that were the case?

If it were the case- is this guy such a low life that he does`nt care that he`s a low life of a father for his kids.Quite possible i`d say.

Nothing should be followed by anyone if ordered to carry out any abuse of power or Law breaking actions.and look at that little mark after i typed actions.

Originally posted by Fry2

"I'd rather die......."

They're going to give you & me & everyone that choice.

So, what "side" are you on?

It's kind of tough to see where you stand on private gun ownership as well as property issues. Is the Constitution valid or not (in your opinion)?

I own a rifle, two bows, 3 swords ( sharpened ), 4 knives (always carry one on me & in my laptop bag - unless flying or other metal detectors are to be passed), a 1250 FPS Pellet gun and two properties + a 125 lb Shutzen trained Cane Corso.
I have zero reservations in bringing any and all of the above to bear upon any and all transgressors, with badge or not, that intend to bring me or mine unjust harm or annex.
With me, I realized long ago that ownership of fortitude, clarity, a certain level of wealth and vocal opinions, especially those counter to corrupt power structures ( both governmental & private) makes one a target. It can be manifested in everything from tax audits of ones business that come out of thin air, to "claims" by the Animal Control officer who's come to collect your dog that they've been running about "menacing", to Officers making your life as a subordinate hell because of legitimate "observations", to the quiet act of an elderly person wanting to stay in their own home.

Originally posted by Amuk
NO LAW CAN SUPERSEDE THE CONSTITUTION

I agree. But when the Supreme Court says that and strikes down unconstitutional legislation modern "conservatives" call that "activism."

Damn skippy. Being an activist for the Constitution is a judge's JOB.