POLITICS: New Orleans: Incompetence or Population Control?

Originally posted by Valhall
The looting started before the wind stopped blowing. Check into the accounts coming from the area.

No one forced the "bad people" to act bad. And they did a world of hurt that will obfuscate issues that need desparate attention.

Grady hit it on the nose.

With great respect to you and Grady, IMO - the media did a world of hurt that will obfuscate issues that need desperate attention. Which happened because the headlines were sensational; because government press releases focused on violence; because the goal was to enforce absolute control in the area, and finally, because public support is needed to play the 'martial law' card - which as you know, is now happening inside the camps, instead of on the streets.

I'm not saying bad things didn't happen, just that they were way over-emphasized for political purpose.

Besides the real crime, which is likely more limited than media reports indicate, the psychological impacts of trauma are VERY well documented, in both immediate and long term effects. ...Many of the perpetrators are probably more in need of medical help than incarceration.

As one of the survivors said, "One minute they're okay, the next they're acting like the devil got to them."


Re: looting.

At what point does looting become scavenging, and when does property become salvage?

...New Orleans is described officially as "totally destroyed," meaning that it's an insurance write-off. Insurance companies already are processing claims.

I'm jumping way ahead on this one - and don't condone theft, or 'looting.' But.

Fact is, none of that stuff is saleable - water damage and mold destroy electronics, for example. And NO one wants contaminated goods - except maybe peasants in third world nations, who don't know where the stuff came from. So what's the real issue here? I honestly don't get it.

I hear people saying they can understand people stealing food to survive, but plasma TV's don't qualify. That's true, but it's pretty much guaranteed that pushing a shopping cart full of electronics through flood waters isn't going to leave much worth having... Ie., it's just salvage. Canned goods on the other hand are usable, if not saleable. (Ie., Would you buy goods you knew were sitting in NO sewage sludge?)


...As far as my position goes, I'm concerned here with the good people who want to stay. Those who are defending their property against possible looters; and those who have formed or renewed their communities. ...My notion of rebuilding NO with sweat and salvage is more poetic than literal, but honestly is based on my childhood experiences growing up on a farm - NOTHING went into the garbage; everything was reused.

So IMO - if the choice is between letting a bulldozer level everything, TV's and all, or letting the scavengers pick through before the "clean up" - then let 'em have it. Why not?


.

Originally posted by soficrow
[This is forced interment - an ultimatum, not a choice.

It is a choice. Stay or leave. Pretty clear cut too. In reagards to your defending the looting of Tv's and the like not really sure that we can have a resonable debate with your type of justification for it. Stuff you need to survive I can see. Im not sure how you explain the whole looting justification. Let me ask this. When South Cnetral LA rioted after the ROdney King verdicts, was the looting justified there?

"No one forced the "bad people" to act bad. And they did a world of hurt that will obfuscate issues that need desparate attention. "


This is what I've been trying to say. There was no reason for Bush and his administration to be so far off target on helping those people left behind. I guess bad people just can't help being bad.










[edit on 9/7/2005 by bodebliss]

Originally posted by FredT
When South Cnetral LA rioted after the ROdney King verdicts, was the looting justified there?

There is a big difference here.

NO is described officially as "totally destroyed" by a natural disaster. Everything is an insurance write-off. Nothing is saleable. Insurance companies already are processing claims.

What's left is slated for bull dozing and landfills.

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by soficrow
[This is forced interment - an ultimatum, not a choice.

It is a choice. Stay or leave. Pretty clear cut too.

Tell me Fred, how are people to start over when they can't leave the camp to look for a job? How are they going to stay sane if they can't go off property and chill?

There are NO choices here for the destitute poor, only ultimatums:

Get out of New Orleans - or be forcibly removed.

Go to a camp, and stay there 24/7 - or forfeit the roof over your and your family's heads, and the water and food you're all provided.


This is BRUTAL stuff.

.

You're dead in the water on this one, soficrow. You might be able to peddle your prion theories with impunity, but on this issue, you sound like a kindergartner caught with his hand in the cookie jar.


[edit on 2005/9/7 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by soficrow

Tell me Fred, how are people to start over when they can't leave the camp to look for a job? How are they going to stay sane if they can't go off property and chill?

Actually, soficrow, efforts are underway to get employment for those displaced.

You can read about it at the link below. Maybe you can create a truthful thread on the matter or dazzle us again with your "creativity."

Google

[edit on 2005/9/7 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by soficrow

Tell me Fred, how are people to start over when they can't leave the camp to look for a job? How are they going to stay sane if they can't go off property and chill?

Actually, soficrow, efforts are underway to get employment for those displaced.

So they will be provided with employment opportunities, will they? Sounds a bit like a work camp to me, or maybe just a good old-fashioned poorhouse, circa 1850.

Maybe you can create a truthful thread on the matter or dazzle us again with your "creativity."

Oh my.

I hardly think my gentle demeanor deserves such venom.


But here's some straight talk I had NO idea was out there:

"Bush is a firm believer that looting should limited to the class of carpetbaggers and war criminals to which he belongs. He has no problem with the “no-bid” contracts and war-profiteering that has plagued Iraqi debacle from Day One. The $9 billion of purloined Iraqi oil revenue never even drew a raised eyebrow from our benighted leader, but the notion that that corruption might be extended democratically to everyone regardless of class -- now that’s the REAL crime as Bush sees it."

The New Orleans Looters Are the Bush Progeny

I'll stop after this one - promise. But I keep finding these absolute gems...


"The destruction of New Orleans represents a confluence of many of the most pernicious trends in American politics and culture: poverty, racism, militarism, elitist greed, environmental abuse, public corruption and the decay of democracy at every level.

Much of this is embodied in the odd phrasing that even the most circumspect mainstream media sources have been using to describe the hardest-hit victims of the storm and its devastating aftermath: "those who chose to stay behind." Instantly, the situation has been framed with language to flatter the prejudices of the comfortable and deny the reality of the most vulnerable.

It is obvious that the vast majority of those who failed to evacuate are poor: they had nowhere else to go, no way to get there, no means to sustain themselves and their families on strange ground. While there were certainly people who stayed behind by choice, most stayed behind because they had no choice. They were trapped by their poverty -- and many have paid the price with their lives.

Yet across the media spectrum, the faint hint of disapproval drips from the affluent observers, the clear implication that the victims were just too lazy and shiftless to get out of harm's way. There is simply no understanding -- not even an attempt at understanding -- the destitution, the isolation, the immobility of the poor and the sick and the broken among us. "

The Perfect Storm

Again, soficrow, you're posting lies either knowingly or unknowingly, as long as it suits your agenda. I lived in New Orleans for 22 years. I lived at or below the "poverty level" for all of that time and still managed to earn two degrees without stealing or committing mayhem. I also rode out more storms and natural disasters than I can remember. In New Orleans, hurricanes are a way of life.

Hurricane maps are given out for free to anyone who wants one and people track hurricanes, both as a hobby the way some people score baseball, and for self-preservation. New Orleans is the only place I have ever lived where everyone owns an umbrella and no one thinks you're nuts when you carry one even when the sun is shining. It rains every day in New Orleans and everyone knows it. If you forget your umbrella, you get wet.

Every year local media publish a list of all the things people need to survive a disaster and everyone is expected to keep those supplies year round. No one has ever had any illusions about who is ultimately responsible for anyone's personal safety, until now, when the worst nightmare comes true and the liberals need some political capital.

I agree that everyone from the city to the feds could have done more, but the real fault lies with those who did not prepare and did not believe that the big one would hit, even when it was evident to anyone, especially people who have tracked hurricanes since grade school that Katrina was likely to be the one everyone always said would hit. Warnings were given and shelters were provided.

You can dredge up all the marxist drivel in the world and post it here until the cows come home and it will still be marxist class conflict mule muffins and it will be no more true or viable as it was when it was first introduced to the world in the guise of compassion.

What is most egregious about your tactics, soficrow, is that you take the genuine suffering of real people and use it for your political agenda without any genuine concern for those who suffer. They are just grist for your mill and what is worse, you take the good that millions of people do to help those in need and either ignore it or twist into something to be ridiculed.

You attack others for their lack of compassion. You post with an arrogance that staggers when it is you who lacks compassion, who sits in your Utopian existence and punches away at a keyboard with absolutely no experience that even remotely qualifies you to judge either those who suffer or those upon whom the lives of millions depend.

While you are judging the all those who work hard everyday to make sure that infrastructure is built and maintained so that you can go to school, post garbage to the internet, eat, take a walk in the park and or even sleep soundly at night, you might consider what you have done to contribute to the world you inhabit. Whom have you served? What sacrifices have you made? How much responsibility for the greater good do you bear. When your world turns to crap, to whom do you look? Until you can say honestly that you look into the mirror when the blame game starts, maybe you should be just a little less critical. Oh, and work on those ethical issues, too. Lying is a vice no matter how pretty it sounds to you and your ilk.

Grady: This thread is full of information regarding Katrina's impacts, particularly on the poor in New Orleans. It is not about me or my politics. I worked hard on this article, and IMO - I did a DAMN good job. Please take your character assassinations and mudslinging elsewhere.

Back to topic:


Katrina, and government failure, killed about 10,000 people in New Orleans alone, leaving another 500,000 refugees homeless and jobless. But the city's Audobon Zoo lost only three of its 1,400 animals - it had good emergency management plans. Critics charge racism, claiming the federal government stalled relief efforts on purpose to 'cull the herd,' and implement a 'cultural triage' policy targeted at America's poor and black. Diplomats remind us that mother nature's power surpasses even advanced technologies, and say bureaucracy is slow. Reports from outside the US emphasize the human tragedy, and the inevitable impacts on a world economy already destabilized by US debt. The mainstream US right highlights the property damage, looting, and lawlessness; the left focuses on the human tragedies created by poverty and ill health, saying many residents were unable to evacuate, that many left behind are shell-shocked, and "not themselves." President Bush admitted the early relief effort was "unacceptable," but does not accept responsibility for the fiasco; critics say America needs a President who is responsible. Public attention is directed to the question, "Should New Orleans be rebuilt?" A minority is looking to the future, pointing to climate change, and telling people there's more to come.


...FEMA outsourced the contract for hurricane recovery planning for New Orleans and Southeastern Louisiana to a consulting firm called Innovative Emergency Management (IEM) - I think they should have used the Zoo. What's your opinion? ...Anyone?

.

Originally posted by soficrow


Katrina, and government failure, killed about 10,000 people in New Orleans alone, leaving another 500,000 refugees homeless and jobless.
.

I read this pack of nonsense. First, the dead have not been counted. Second, I don't know what the Audubon Zoo has to do with any of this except to make one more of your pointless points. Posting links to nonsense doesn't mean anything. And there is absolutely nothing that you can tell me about the poor of New Orleans, as I was one of them for 22 years. I lived with the poor. I rode the bus with the poor. I worked with the poor and I went to school with the poor. Never was I moved to ascribed to your standards of decorum and I believe that is probably the one thing I would like to be remembered for--that I saw poverty as a blessing not a curse and that I never descended into base criminality using my poverty as an excuse.

[edit on 2005/9/8 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by soficrow


Katrina, and government failure, killed about 10,000 people in New Orleans alone, leaving another 500,000 refugees homeless and jobless.
.

I read this pack of nonsense. First, the dead have not been counted.

Nagin said publicly that about 10,000 dead were expected. The link is posted above.

FYI - Mayet reported today that 25,000 body bags have been flown in for Katrina victims.

Originally posted by Mayet

SOME 25,000 body bags have been brought into the New Orleans area to cope with the possiblity of a huge death toll from Hurricane Katrina, a Louisiana health official has said.

"It is my understanding that FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) has about 25,000 body bags on hand," Bob Johanssen of the state Department of Health and Hospitals told reporters.
www.news.com.au...

EDIT to add: 500,000 homeless and jobless - simple arithmetic. NO population = 500,000. NO completely destroyed - no jobs no nothing there. 240,000 refugees inTexas; assorted #'s elsewhere, add 'em all up. Links above.

Second, I don't know what the Audubon Zoo has to do with any of this

The Zoo had a disaster management plan for its animals; it worked, and the animals were saved. The government did NOT have a disaster management plan for the people; people died, and starved, and suffered greatly, and mayhem reigned.

there is absolutely nothing that you can tell me about the poor of New Orleans, as I was one of them for 22 years. I lived with the poor. I rode the bus with the poor. I worked with the poor and I went to school with the poor.

IMO - you should start a thread about your life, and explain how everything that happened in NO is encompassed by your personal experiences - and of cousre, continue to make it clear that absolutely nothing anyone else might have to offer has any merit at all.

Never was I moved to ascribed to your standards of decorum

Please do not make assumptions about my standards, nor twist my words.

I saw poverty as a blessing not a curse

I agree - I've always said that only the very very poor or very very rich are truly free.

I never descended into base criminality using my poverty as an excuse.

Nor should you have. But kudos anyway.

The focus on 'poverty' in New Orleans has to do with people having nowhere to go, and no way to get there. Point being - many were stranded because they had no other option.

As far as criminality goes - that's a whole other conversation that must recognize ALL the different things that were going on in NO - and include traumatic stress reactions and disorders, as well as distinguish between scavenging and looting, and separate out other kinds of crime.

IMO - The worst injury we can perpetrate on NO survivors is to lump evryone and everything together as if it were all the same - or to allow anyone else to do so.


[edit on 8-9-2005 by soficrow]

Yeah. Fourteen hundred animals in a confined space and and 500,000 freewill individuals have a lot in common. Most of those animals were not evacuated and most survived. I'm not saying that my experience encompasses everyone's experience, but I know a lot more about the people of New Orleans than you ever will and your values are clearly evident, unless your just putting on an odious charade for entertainment purposes.

Originally posted by soficrow
I worked hard on this article, and IMO - I did a DAMN good job.

you did a very good job of gathering info from your side of the story....

Katrina, and government failure, killed about 10,000 people in New Orleans alone, leaving another 500,000 refugees homeless and jobless.

So, the government could have saved half a million jobs, (explain how), and how many of your claim of 10,000, decided that they were willing to risk everthing and stay?, I see today that 10,000 are refusing to leave, were they just lucky or oppositon party members?

But the city's Audobon Zoo lost only three of its 1,400 animals - it had good emergency management plans. Critics charge racism, claiming the federal government stalled relief efforts on purpose to 'cull the herd,' and implement a 'cultural triage' policy targeted at America's poor and black. Diplomats remind us that mother nature's power surpasses even advanced technologies, and say bureaucracy is slow. Reports from outside the US emphasize the human tragedy, and the inevitable impacts on a world economy already destabilized by US debt. The mainstream US right highlights the property damage, looting, and lawlessness; the left focuses on the human tragedies created by poverty and ill health, saying many residents were unable to evacuate, that many left behind are shell-shocked, and "not themselves." President Bush admitted the early relief effort was "unacceptable," but does not accept responsibility for the fiasco; critics say America needs a President who is responsible. Public attention is directed to the question, "Should New Orleans be rebuilt?" A minority is looking to the future, pointing to climate change, and telling people there's more to come.

No hidden agenda here, to prey upon those who where affected by the storm, not that you would be doing something to take advantage of someone's suffering to further your political views.......

...FEMA outsourced the contract for hurricane recovery planning for New Orleans and Southeastern Louisiana to a consulting firm called Innovative Emergency Management (IEM) - I think they should have used the Zoo. What's your opinion? ...Anyone?

Recovery?, How about the response?, who is responsible for that?, the state maybe?, while there is many things that went wrong and we think the immediate response could have been much more rapid, the fact is that this hurricane is one which we haven't seen in our lifetime, it is unfortunate that people have lost their lives, but it is not uncommon to see a loss of life, even when "mandatory evacuation" orders are issued, it is just this time (at least in the case of New Orleans,) , the levee broke loose and compounded the damage from the storm.


I place blame on no one, I don't have all the facts in front of me, but to me, it doesn't matter how "high" you build the walls, if you are below sea level, you are asking for trouble. If they rebuild the city I would love to see them backfill the entire area to the tops of the levee walls then procede with construction, common sense tells me if they want to rebuild that would be a good start....

This event was an act of God, nothing more, nothing less, pointing fingers may may make some feel better, but in the end we will get through this tragedy and become a better nation because of it, (regardless of political agenda), we always do.....

ED:sp

[edit on 9/8/05 by JacKatMtn]

Read this. Then get back to me.


'They're not giving us what we need to survive.' Jamie Doward reports on the fury of New Orleans residents who say they were ignored and mistreated by the authorities


"...As convoys of commandeered school buses and Greyhound coaches transported tens of thousands of refugees out of the submerged city yesterday, in a belated and much-criticised relief operation, each vehicle brought with it new tales of horror. ...Those trapped inside the two main shelters, the Superdome and the Convention Centre, paint a picture of a city that was subsumed beneath waves of violence, rape and death and accuse the police and National Guard of standing by, ignoring their pleas for help.

...The claims are rejected by the federal and state authorities, who instead suggest the looting and lawlessness which followed the extensive flooding of the city was the result of a series of isolated incidents perpetrated by a few. ...But it is clear from talking to survivors that what happened in New Orleans last week was far more extensive, bloody and terrifying than the authorities have admitted so far.

...'We had to wrap dead people in white sheets and throw them outside while the police stood by and did nothing,' .....'The police were in boats watching us. They were just laughing at us. Five of them to a boat, not trying to help nobody. Helicopters were riding by just looking at us. They weren't helping. We were pulling people on bits of wood, and the National Guard would come driving by in their empty military trucks.' "

and much, much more

Regarding population control, this is a very broad term and could have any number of meanings and implications. I'm not sure how it was intended.

I think the incompetance seen in dealing with Katrina was incredible, simply unbelievable, at all levels. City, State, and Federal, and even the domestic media, who chose to focus on looting and race issues over the facts on the ground.

The looting, the lawlessness, and the racial aspects of NO should not have come as any surprise, and the media presented these issue like it was some incredible breaking news that the poor of New Orleans are mostly black, or people in a lawless, devastated city loot or commit other crimes. Instead, they should have focused on exactly what the President, FEMA, the Governer, the Mayor, the Military, and anyone else who could actually (and should have been prepared to) make a difference, were doing to rectify the situation.

The local and state authorities were grossly negligent in their lack of preparation for this event. The Federal authorities were grossly negligent in failing to respond when it became apparent that the situation was beyond the control of the local and state authorities. And both "sides" (for that is what they've become in this mad race to see who draws first blood in the blame game, and succumbs to the inevitable shark feeding frenzy as a result) have perfect shields from any true public uproar, given that they can point to the lawlessness and racial apathy issues to defend themselves and deflect attention from their own failures. There may not be any conspiracy involved, but there is a de facto smokescreen which will protect the politicians, the authorities, and the sensibilities of those who choose to get worked up over these non-issues at the expense of the victims.

Also, re the following quote:

It doesn't make sense. Now that the danger is past, officials want everyone out. No scavenging allowed. But most everything is going to be written off anyway - insurance companies already are processing claims. So why?

Officials don't want people out because of the looting, they want them out because New Orleans is now about to become, if it isn't already, America's top environmental hellhole. The people who stay behind will suffer grave health risks which will require resources to treat which would go much further towards caring for healthier refugees.

-koji K.


[edit on 8-9-2005 by koji_K]

Originally posted by JacKatMtn
If they rebuild the city I would love to see them backfill the entire are to the tops of the levee walls then procede with construction, common sense tells me if they want to rebuild that would be a good start....

I agree.

I also think if survivors scavenge through the rubble before everything gets bulldozed it is not looting.

Originally posted by koji_K

Officials don't want people out because of the looting, they want them out because New Orleans is now about to become, if it isn't already, America's top environmental hellhole. The people who stay behind will suffer grave health risks which will require resources to treat which would go much further towards caring for healthier refugees.

-koji K.

Okay. That makes sense to me. I was distracted by the CDC statement that disease would NOT be a problem (link above).

...Toxic environmental contamination is a very different kettle of fish tho.

(Maybe I'll take back my statement above about scavenging. )

I just heard when congresswoman Pelosi suggested Brown be fired Bush said, 'now why would I do that?'.

It just shows and inept leader who panders to his incompetent underlings.

Brown must be doing everything just as Bush planned.








[edit on 9/8/2005 by bodebliss]