Question for the religious....

Originally posted by Gazrok
Well, I'm not asking for interpretations for everything, just that if they truly believe that non-followers are doomed, and then if they feel that it is just.... Personally, I find it distasteful, to say the least, that ANY God would let billions meet their doom, just for not believing in them, but in essence, this is the dogma for many religions. I'm merely trying to point this out, and force a little re-examination of such beliefs, with the knowledge that if such a believer is correct, then it would essentially make their God quite the bigot....

Gazrok, I understand where you�re coming from; but if God is a bigot then so be it...neither you nor I can do a dam thing about it. Also, I'm not going to change my beliefs based on the opinions of people on some Internet message board. You have your beliefs, I have mine.

[Edited on 2-9-2003 by Hyperspace]

"Prophets don't know everything"-Kira

As a non-religious person, I must say that religion is bogus (IMO, of course). I can agree that it helps some people through their lives, but I do not believe it to be credible. I highly doubt that any one religion holds all the facts. Also, it's absurd to believe that good & honest non believers have a one way ticket to hell.

Edited to add "some".

[Edited on 9/2/2003 by Bangin]

Originally posted by Gazrok

well we will never really know

That's where they are wrong...we'll know, in the end...

One way or the other....

Well, when you find out, make sure to stop in here & tell us what it's like...


That's the problem with religious dogma as it refers to any kind of afterlife...How can you be sure that *they* know what the hell (figuratively speaking) they're talking about? Did that particular preacher die & come back himself?...Personally?...Did he actually *see* that afterlife himself so he knows what it's like?

NOT FRIGGIN' LIKELY!

Yes, I'm well aware that there are reports of those who've been clinically dead for a short period of time & they've described what they've seen before they were revived...But how can *anyone* (including that ressuccitated person) be *absolutely certain* that their own mind wasn't playing tricks on them & showing them the equivalant of a "fever dream" while they were still dead? Perhaps that dream-image showed them what they *thought* they should expect after having grown up with a certain style of religious/spiritual doctrine during their lives?

Yes, we *will* all find out in the end who was talking straight & who's been blowing smoke...But the trick is that no one can be absolutely sure *until* the end...

Originally posted by paperclip Also there is no "our God" "their God", there is only one GOD, who has spoken through many prophets.
There are many religions but only one source.

From what my religious studies have shown me, this is very much true...There are too many simularities between religions, young or old.

There may have been only one source, but even the most devout has to admit that they must rely on someone else's word about what they've seen/heard from that one source...We all must rely upon scriptures of some sort & these are no closer to the one source than being a "second-hand account".

Gazrok, I understand where you�re coming from; but if God is a bigot then so be it...neither you nor I can do a dam thing about it. Also, I'm not going to change my beliefs based on the opinions of people on some Internet message board. You have your beliefs, I have mine.

The goal isn't to change anyone's beliefs... Truly, one who is strong in their convictions is not going to be swayed by chatter on a message board. This is not my intention. My intention is to see where those different from myself are coming from, to understand their viewpoint, and maybe, just maybe ask for an open-minded approach to long held beliefs, in order to re-examine them, and their implications.... The goal isn't to strike a nerve....but if it does....maybe it should be asked....why?

Personally, I believe in reincarnation. Once a person dies, they are reborn over and over until they have learned all there is to learn and gave attained enlightenment. Upon the final death, I believe that each person becomes one with the Force, and may take the form of a spirit guide to help others down the same path. That's just my view, though.

Originally posted by TheManWithThePlan
we jediists believe that no one religion holds the truth. The truth is omnipresent within the ideals of each.

I also agree with this (since I am also a Jediist ). No religion is the "only or ultimate truth", as they all seem to claim to be. Each religion holds many truths that coincide with the beliefs of other religions - while no two are exactly the same, no two are completely different, either. There are truths in every religion - even Satanism - that we can and should learn from, rather than claiming to have all the answers to something that is impossible to have all of the answers for.

When a person accepts tolerance like this, peace is the result.

Originally posted by Hyperspace
many religious people don't really understand their own religion.

YES!!! And those that do think they understand it are often bigger hypocrites than those who don't. That's the problem. No one understands it. They only claim they do, for some odd reason.

Q: What do you think happens to those who do not believe as you do, after death? If they are doomed, do you think this is a fair action taken by your deity? If they are not doomed, then why adhere to the tenets of your faith?

Q: What do you think happens to those who do not believe as you do, after death?

A: They are reborn in their new life, perhaps in a different realm of existence, based on the different types of karma from their last, and previous lives.

Q: If they are not doomed, then why adhere to the tenets of your faith?

A: I had a really good answer for this, but its hard for me to get it into words. Perhaps once I'm able to compile my thoughs, and figure out how I want to approach this then I'll write my response to this one. For now though I will just say... The paths are many.

`Peace, love, and happiness to all beings!~
oui



[Edited on 2-9-2003 by oui]

Seeing as NDE's are arguably the nearest we have to any kind of evidence to what an afterlife state is and who gets there it's interesting to note the amount of experiencers who've come away from the event dissilusioned with organised religion. The message seems to be forget the dogma, the ritual and who believes/disbelieves, it's about how we all treat each other and what we do to help others that's the key thing.

Well my religion does not believe in the Hell.

Its ignorant for Christians to believe all non Christian believers are going to hell.
Christians are not he first and only religion, They were numerous religions that thrived much before thier time and still do.
Hinduism would be a good example.

Most religions hold morals and values to better our lives, its only men who corrupt them and bring vain.

Saying religion is "BS", is BS.
Its religion that has brought us where we are, we always think about the bad religion has done but not the good.
Though some swept through countrys like a plauge racing to see how many it could convert and intrap, others flourised in thier little societys and lived peacufully, only to be hit by these plauges once every while.
The one and only thing that makes me mad are men preaching that their religion is the one and only true way to god and all others are obsolete.
Deep

The one and only thing that makes me mad are men preaching that their religion is the one and only true way to god and all others are obsolete.

In a way, it's this frustration that's behind the original question....

In responce to Gazrok's question:

"Do they really believe that non-believers are doomed? And, if so, do they believe that this is the act of a kind and loving God?"

When I was thirteen years old I was attending a youth worship group at a Southern Baptist church. A woman was leading the discussion group of children as young as 7 and I asked her why we were being taught that all the Chinese people were going to hell? She came back rather irritated at my question and said " because they don't know Christ". I then asked her "what about the millions of people who were born before Christ ?" She became more irritated and said that "She wasn't sure" about this question and for me to be quiet and "listen" I then stood up and said "I am only a mere human and I would never send all those people to hell, isn't God supposed to be more compassionate than me?" She became very upset and asked me to leave the discussion group...I left and never went back...

Peace and Love,
CasperTFG

Hi all,

Do you guys think the Holy Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was in the Bible, i have seen alot of eveidence in many books and web sites.

What if we are al meant to be Muslims, how do u guys feel about that?

Also one more question, Do guys think that Islam is a threat to western world, and if so can u explaine??

Thanks

Guerilla

Originally posted by CasperTFG
In responce to Gazrok's question:

"Do they really believe that non-believers are doomed? And, if so, do they believe that this is the act of a kind and loving God?"

When I was thirteen years old I was attending a youth worship group at a Southern Baptist church. A woman was leading the discussion group of children as young as 7 and I asked her why we were being taught that all the Chinese people were going to hell? She came back rather irritated at my question and said " because they don't know Christ". I then asked her "what about the millions of people who were born before Christ ?" She became more irritated and said that "She wasn't sure" about this question and for me to be quiet and "listen" I then stood up and said "I am only a mere human and I would never send all those people to hell, isn't God supposed to be more compassionate than me?" She became very upset and asked me to leave the discussion group...I left and never went back...

Peace and Love,
CasperTFG

Typical... very common thing to do if you want to discredit Religion, you try to prove that MAN doesnt have all answers... We are NOT SUPPOSED TO! God knows everything and has all the answers, not humans. God has sent us prophets to give us GUIDELINES how to live our lives. What WE DO with it is a part of another thing God gave us, free will. You can choose not to follow, you can choose to change the Scripture, you can choose to deny God, you can choose to worship Satan. Thats a part of being human.
Humans dont know everything, whether you're atheist or religious you simply cannot know everything there is to know. Life is a huge lesson that never ends.

that a tribe somewhere deep in the jungle of South American is not going to the next level for not believing in Jesus?

They don't even know who Jesus is. That is the fallacy of Christian teaching.

By the way gang, we are already in heaven. We are in God's kingdom. Take a look around.

Add "We don't know" to the list of religious cop-outs....right up there with "the Lord works in mysterious ways", "it was God's will", etc.....

Do you guys think the Holy Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was in the Bible, i have seen alot of eveidence in many books and web sites.

What if we are al meant to be Muslims, how do u guys feel about that?

Also one more question, Do guys think that Islam is a threat to western world, and if so can u explaine??

A: I know of no reference to Mohammed in the Bible, but Jesus is mentioned in the Koran...

A: Well, then a lot of us are wrong, hehe... Honestly, I have a lot of respect for most muslims (sans the fanatics), it's actually a rather peaceful religion.... If we are wrong, then it is God's failing, not ours, for he failed to communicate adequately to his children (which in essence, if any God exists, he has this failing regardless, due to the many different major faiths of the world)....

A: No, but fundamentalist Islam certainly poses a threat to the Western World...primarily because of it's focus on "Jihad" or Holy War to purge the Earth of the Infidels (non-believers of Islam). This has been a tool of recruitment by terrorist organizations to attract young and idealistic followers, to use as a mantra and justification for acts of terror that instead are seeking to achieve political (not religious) goals.

Does One Think

that a tribe somewhere deep in the jungle of South American is not going to the next level for not believing in Jesus?

They don't even know who Jesus is. That is the fallacy of Christian teaching.

By the way gang, we are already in heaven. We are in God's kingdom. Take a look around.

It's not just a Christian fallacy. Many other religions also believe this...Judism and Islam, to name but two major faiths.... The same African tribesman has likely heard of neither of those gods either, but according to those religions' dogma, he would not go to the next level....

Gazrok.....

As a believer in God, through my many years of doing research on different doctrines, different religious beliefs, etc., I have come to a number of conclusions

No religion is the "one true religion."

The finite mind of man cannot possible understand the infinite being of God.

That there is a God, a Source of All Things.

God reveals Himself/Herself on a personal level.

When God has manifested Himself/Herself to man, it has been in multiple forms. God is like a diamond. We only see a 'facet' of God. Some have been blessed enough to have glimpsed and understood many 'facets' of God. But to fully see ALL the facets of God.....man does not have the capabilities to understand such a 'revealing'. In such, God is understood differently through the eyes of a Christian, through the eyes of a Islamist, through the eyes of a Buddist, etc., etc.

I believe that 'we'/man are all literally apart of God. He/She is the Source of All. We/man came from God and unto God we/man will return upon taking our last "breaths of life."

That 'wrong' and 'right' is ultimately a subjective judgement based on a personal value system that incorporates an inherent natural sense of basic 'wrong' and 'right.' That our experiences, what we see, hear, read, are taught, etc., combine to further form our definitions of 'wrong' and 'right.' Morals are different for everyone; they are applied differently, understood differently and accepted differently. I don't believe that there is an 'ultimate' moral guideline for all of us. The greatest teachers and prophets believed this and applied this. We/man are our own "ultimate moral guides" and we set our own "ultimate moral guidelines."

We are here to experience, to find out who we are and who we want to really be...to remember who we were when we came from God. In returning to God, He/She also recieves what we have experienced. For through us, God can experience. God knows and knew Everything.....but it has been said and has been taught by many Great teachers and prophets, that to know love, one must experience it. God knew love but coul;d never 'feel' it, experience it. Its like telling your children about love and what it is, etc. They can define it, maybe give a simple explanation as to how it 'feels', but until one truly experiences it, love is nothing but a definition.

I know that this is probably raising the hair on many people's necks but its how I feel. Gaz, I know that you believe in God....I know you believe in a higher being, a source....that you ponder this alot....I'm assuming here but I can sense it. I would like to suggest a series that I read that would be most encouraging and enlightening: Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch. Very good read and right up with the way you think.

I have classes and have to run......

regards
seekerof

Actually Seekerof, we're on the same wavelength...except that that which you call God, I do not give a name to....

While I agree with seekerof, as far as what I choose to put my own faith in, I think that everyone needs to step back and view things from a purely objective standpoint. The fact, for EVERYONE, is that NO ONE has any idea what will become of us in the end.We could be reincarnated, get our own planet, go to heaven, burn in hell, or die and become dust, just to name a few. I hate religion in general because religion was made up by men to exploit the faith and loyalty of others, for their own benefit. It is fine to believe in whatever type of afterlife one chooses, but to deny the slightest possibility that someone else's belief may actually be the correct one is just self-protective denial. The notion that the religion (including atheism) one is willing to sacrifice everything for, may not be the right one, is simply not an option for most people. To be able to maintain one's personal faith and also recognize that there are an infinite number of possibilities in the end, forces one to examine the depths of themselves to find out if what they believe is really felt in their soul or if someone just brainwashed them into believing. Personally, I believe in God and the Bible. I believe this because no matter what other philosophies or ideas I have studied or explored, I cannot shake the sense in the pit of my gut, that it is true. Honestly, this is as terrifying an idea to me, as it is comforting to "Christians". I really hope that I am wrong, since the Biblical God has some extremely sadistic tendencies. It would suit me just fine to be the descendant of an alien culture or for all men to exist on various, pleasant, spiritual planes. I think that if people would start to ask themselves "What if?" then maybe all the judgment and hate we keep throwing at each other would cease to exist. No one should ever forget that no matter if they believe in God, no God, an afterlife, or no afterlife, it is ALL based on the FAITH that THEY are correct. It is arrogant and short-sighted to assume you are right at the cost of rejecting others for making the same assumption.

[Edited on 9/9/2003 by SamaraMorgueAnn]