Faith in faith

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by roger_pearse

The Bible permits slavery... Until fairly recently, the practice was widely supported by Christians, and justified by the Bible. Now it is rightfully condemned. Christian values are just as temporary as any others.

If this were so -- and the falsity of it is hardly in question -- would it establish the validity of the values for which you campaign here?

If what were so? Be more specific.

What values have I campaigned for?

You'll excuse me if I decline this debating club gambit. Write your own posts.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Originally posted by Ras Dedan

Originally posted by roger_pearse
It is, after all, only non-Christians who live by faith in a set of values and ideas which they have not examined as a whole and which they know (if they thought about it at all) are purely temporary and will pass away.

First of all it's arrogant in the extreme to be so dismissive of all non-christian beliefs although I'm not surprised in the slightest to read such blatant falsehood.

Conformity to societal values is all very well. You don't explain, tho, why we should not observe this, or criticise it.

The remainder of your post seems to have nothing to do with my post. I think you probably misread what I wrote.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Originally posted by roger_pearse

Originally posted by Ras Dedan

Originally posted by roger_pearse
It is, after all, only non-Christians who live by faith in a set of values and ideas which they have not examined as a whole and which they know (if they thought about it at all) are purely temporary and will pass away.

First of all it's arrogant in the extreme to be so dismissive of all non-christian beliefs although I'm not surprised in the slightest to read such blatant falsehood.

Conformity to societal values is all very well. You don't explain, tho, why we should not observe this, or criticise it.

What has conformity to societal values have to do with this?You claim all non christians believe things without thorough examination,talk about the pot calling the kettle black read through these threads and no one is more blinded by lack of reasoning and blind acceptence of ideas implanted by others than christians.

Originally posted by roger_pearse
The remainder of your post seems to have nothing to do with my post. I think you probably misread what I wrote.

Are you just being deliberately obtuse.I think it's pretty clear.

Originally posted by roger_pearse

Originally posted by spamandham
The Bible permits slavery... Until fairly recently, the practice was widely supported by Christians, and justified by the Bible. Now it is rightfully condemned. Christian values are just as temporary as any others.

If this were so -- and the falsity of it is hardly in question -- would it establish the validity of the values for which you campaign here?

You were dismissing the claims in relation to christianity,the bible and slavery,which are undeniable historical facts.Nothing to misread there unless your attempting to claim otherwise,as I pointed out Noah's curse on Ham was the most widely used passage in defence of the Atlantic slave trade but throughout history this and other passages were used as "proof" by christians to claim slavery was not against the will of God.
If you don't believe the validity of my claims do a little research and deny ignorance.

[edit on 15/9/2005 by Ras Dedan]

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
The thought of just dying is not repugnant to me. The thought of deminishing the thought of life after death in anyone else does

Are we not in agreement that the possibility of this is negligable.

Do you think that stating my thoughts will deminsh others beliefs?

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Certainly not. I was merely implying that I don't wish to attempt to belittle those who choose to believe in something higher up the chain than humans.

I don't think I was attempting to belittle anyone,if it comes across as this to you I can assure you it's not.I state often in my posts that my aims are not to attack others and that my beliefs are no more or less valid than anyone else.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
It is a moral crime against no one but ourselves if we choose to discredit thier words on the basis of their belief system. It is thier belief system and communication skills that can help us to learn and aid us in humanities struggle for more tolerance, and less intolerance between our own kind, ..... and other kinds.

True to an extent but at times the views put forward are in themselves intolerent or bigoted,is it not right to challenge discriminatory views lacking in validity.It would feel more moraly lacking if I failed to challenge views which were offensive to me or flew in the face of human knowledge no matter how they were reached.See above to Mr Pearse's dismissal of the role of christianity and use of biblical evidence in the slave trade,am I not right to confront this false opinion.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Semantics (evil me). What about women? Just kidding. Listen, just because mankind has the most advanced brain in man's point of view, does not make that belief absolutley factual. And, I wouldn't necessarily agree that mankind has been lifted above any other form of life. We just have a highly developed means of communication, which definatley gave us a great amount of knowledge and intelligence above the creatures of this planet as we percieve them to be.

In lifted above I mean that in the aspect of intellegence we are more advances than other creatures and this has provided us with an ability to create culture etc. I don't see a problem with claiming this.
I think I've been pretty clear in my thoughts on man/womans position in creation.Most followers of religion and spiritualty and as far as I'm aware all those you preach heaven and hell type concepts exalt man above all other forms of Gods creation.The result of such thinking is in evidence wherever you care to look.


I've got to go for now,I'll rely to the rest later.

Originally posted by Ras Dedan

Originally posted by roger_pearse

Originally posted by Ras Dedan

Originally posted by roger_pearse
It is, after all, only non-Christians who live by faith in a set of values and ideas which they have not examined as a whole and which they know (if they thought about it at all) are purely temporary and will pass away.

First of all it's arrogant in the extreme to be so dismissive of all non-christian beliefs although I'm not surprised in the slightest to read such blatant falsehood.

Conformity to societal values is all very well. You don't explain, tho, why we should not observe this, or criticise it.

What has conformity to societal values have to do with this?You claim all non christians believe things without thorough examination,talk about the pot calling the kettle black read through these threads and no one is more blinded by lack of reasoning and blind acceptence of ideas implanted by others than christians.

We can't really have a discussion until you read what I wrote, and respond to it with something other than bluster, you know.

You haven't stated the position you post in advocacy of, so I will do my best to do it for you here. The values of most people -- no doubt including yourself? -- consist of conformity to some subset of the societal values of the location and time in which they live.

Quite why we should so live is never stated. Blind belief in these seems silly to me, but is commonplace.

Originally posted by roger_pearse

Originally posted by spamandham
The Bible permits slavery... Until fairly recently, the practice was widely supported by Christians, and justified by the Bible. Now it is rightfully condemned. Christian values are just as temporary as any others.

If this were so -- and the falsity of it is hardly in question -- would it establish the validity of the values for which you campaign here?

You were dismissing the claims in relation to christianity,the bible and slavery,which are undeniable historical facts.

I made no comment on the red herring of slavery, introduced by someone else. I commented on the only part of it which was relevant, the statement "Christian values are just as temporary as any others."

All the best,

Roger Pearse

[edit on 15/9/2005 by roger_pearse]

Originally posted by roger_pearse
We can't really have a discussion until you read what I wrote, and respond to it with something other than bluster, you know.

You haven't stated the position you post in advocacy of, so I will do my best to do it for you here. The values of most people -- no doubt including yourself? -- consist of conformity to some subset of the societal values of the location and time in which they live.

Quite why we should so live is never stated. Blind belief in these seems silly to me, but is commonplace.

Ok we have established your tactic of skirting the points raised and being deliberately obtuse.My position is perfectly clear do I really need to go over it again,alright I'll play your little game one last time since you enjoy it so much but make the most of it I wont labour over this point again.
You made the claim below which I questioned and then you pretend to not know what my point is,very clever

Originally posted by roger_pearse
It is, after all, only non-Christians who live by faith in a set of values and ideas which they have not examined as a whole and which they know (if they thought about it at all) are purely temporary and will pass away.

Now you can continue making ignorant assumptions as to my mindset in relation to society as you have above all you want and you're so wide of the mark it's actually quite funny,a christian questioning the western social influences and conformity on the mind of a black Rastafari living in the west as a result of the slavery of his ancestors by that same system and religious tradition wonders will never cease,however that as you well know is not the point,the point is your arrogant claims and assumptions of others beliefs being inferior to your own and not only that but that all non christians views are formed without thinking them through and obviously the reverse being true of christians.The ridiculous nature of that as I pointed out is very apparent no one is more unquestioning,irrational and blinded by false perspective and wisdom received from others than christians,it would appear blind acceptance of whatever your told is a prerequisite of being a "good christian"
Where you get the brass neck for such claims about others is beyond me I would really like to know what other than ego leads you to such preposterous claims.

Originally posted by roger_pearse
I made no comment on the red herring of slavery, introduced by someone else. I commented on the only part of it which was relevant, the statement "Christian values are just as temporary as any others."

Red herring of slavery ? perhaps you could explain that comment more fully,the point is christians put fellow human beings into slavery and used the bible as justification,it would appear that christians these days no longer hold this thought valid,therefore christian belief in this case is temporary unless that is you claim it's still valid to subjugate others because it's not against God's will.Seems strange you originally include the reference to slavery in the original quotes and now leave it out.

I don't expect you to address the points I've made,no doubts be lots of waffle about what I've not said or some such nonesense,as I said I won't play that daft little game you like of having to go back over the same things again and again.If you can't do better than that I'll leave it at that.

[edit on 15/9/2005 by Ras Dedan]

Originally posted by Ras Dedan

Originally posted by roger_pearse
We can't really have a discussion until you read what I wrote, and respond to it with something other than bluster, you know.

You haven't stated the position you post in advocacy of, so I will do my best to do it for you here. The values of most people -- no doubt including yourself? -- consist of conformity to some subset of the societal values of the location and time in which they live.

Quite why we should so live is never stated. Blind belief in these seems silly to me, but is commonplace.

Ok we have established your tactic of ... (rant removed unread)

I'm afraid nothing in this requires any comment from me.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

[edit on 15/9/2005 by roger_pearse]

I'm closing this thread...

When you begin to argue about arguments and stray this far away from the topic-at-hand, there's really no valid reason to keep it open

Please resolve your differences civilly via u2u and in the future please refrain from consuming your entire post with rebuttals to rebuttals, as it tends to detract from the original intent of the thread author...