Faith in faith

Originally posted by slymattb
These are all reason why I try to explane to Spam that Faith is a belief system, a powerful one at that.

I don't deny that faith is a belief system, or that it is powerful. But it's power rests in its ability to control the masses, not in its ability to gain knowledge.

Originally posted by slymattb
Spam you said it would be pain that keeps letting you go on. But its faith that make you believe that life can get better.

Now you're equivocating as well. What you're calling 'faith' in this context is not the same as the 'faith' you use in a religious context. They simply share the same word. It's unfortunate that English so readily permits such abuses of language.

Originally posted by slymattb
My points is these emotions come from some where how do you get scare, where does love come from,humor, hatered, feels good. Where do they come from??

From the brain.

Originally posted by slymattb
Besides if you cant notice the evil in the world your blind.

Who said I don't notice evil in the world?

However, "evil" is not absolute just as "good" is not absolute. These are relative terms.

Even the Bible supports that perspective with phrases such as "evil in the eyes of the Lord" or "good in the eyes of the Lord". The Bible recognizes these terms are relative as well and thus specifies what they are reletive to for context.

Originally posted by spamandham
Three different definitions that you equate by means of a common word with multiple definitions. Do you realize you're equivocating?

Actually I am not, since I was not trying to decieve, but try to prove a point that there are multiple defitions of faith and it can be used differant ways. You never have bothered in this whole thread to clarify what definiton of faith you are using. You might want to check a dictionary and start looking at the definitions of the words "Faith" and "Equivocal" before you continue on. The fact that a word in the title of this thread has multiple definitions and you have never bothered to clarify what specific definition you are using is equivocal.

But staying with the topic I have shown using differant definitons of faith to show faith can be found outside of religion or politics.

It is those who take advatage of other peoples faith who are the problem, not the people with faith, or faith itself

Originally posted by Jehosephat
You never have bothered in this whole thread to clarify what definiton of faith you are using.

While it's true that I didn't provide a dictionary style definition, I did clarify the context in the opening post with this:

What is it about this word that people find virtuous? Why should it be considered a good thing to believe things that are hidden or unprovable?

Perhaps I'm expecting too much for people to read an entire short post to glean context.

Originally posted by Jehosephat
It is those who take advatage of other peoples faith who are the problem, not the people with faith, or faith itself

Ok, why is faith itself not the problem?

Originally posted by spamandham

What is it about this word that people find virtuous? Why should it be considered a good thing to believe things that are hidden or unprovable?

Ok, why is faith itself not the problem?

Is it wrong to have a faithful wife or husband? Would you want to have a faithful wife or Husband.. or for that matter faithful girlfriend/boyfriend? How about a faithful servent?

Except when taken advatage of by a person that uses anothers faith for their own gain, I cannot think of any instance when faith is not considered a virtue when describing a persons attributes

Originally posted by Jehosephat

Originally posted by spamandham

What is it about this word that people find virtuous? Why should it be considered a good thing to believe things that are hidden or unprovable?

Ok, why is faith itself not the problem?

Is it wrong to have a faithful wife or husband? Would you want to have a faithful wife or Husband.. or for that matter faithful girlfriend/boyfriend? How about a faithful servent?

I thought we already covered what was meant by faith in the context of the opening post:

Belief in things that are hidden/unprovable.

"Faithful" in the sense you are using it here has nothing to do with this definition of faith. In the case of the spouse/lover, "faithful" means sexual fidelity. In the case of a servant, "faithful" implies diligence and honesty.

I already accused you of attempting to equivocate to which you responded that you were merely showing the different definitions. Now here you are trying to equivocate again.

Originally posted by Jehosephat
I cannot think of any instance when faith is not considered a virtue when describing a persons attributes

You haven't explained why belief in things hidden/unprovable should ever be considered virtuous. All you have done is try to show that other meanings of "faith" can be virtuous.

Explain to me how a comman person is going ot prove that thier spouse or loved one is faithful. It isn't provable.

Again I ask you top look up in the dictionary and read up on the definition of faith, and stick to one specific definition in this topic instead of waffling when someone doesn't use the definition you prefer to be used that can prove your point.

By it's definition it is viruous and a postive trait. and is not based on provable logic or evidance

I would also suggest, again, you look up the word equivocal to show that YOU are the one equivicating since you dont even understand the definiton of faith in the first place. At least I used the word in the context of a sentance that helps clarifiy the defitition of the word "Faith" i was using.

Originally posted by Jehosephat
Explain to me how a comman person is going ot prove that thier spouse or loved one is faithful. It isn't provable.

If you are using faith to determine your spouse/lover is true to you, you are a fool. You should be basing such trust on their prior behavior, not on faith. Even then, you should know there is a possibility your trust is unfounded.

Originally posted by Jehosephat
Again I ask you top look up in the dictionary and read up on the definition of faith, and stick to one specific definition in this topic instead of waffling when someone doesn't use the definition you prefer to be used that can prove your point.

I gave the definition I am using in the opening post and have not once deviated from it. It is you who keep trying to use other definitions in order to justify the sense of faith I presented.

Since you enjoy referring me to the dictionary, I would refer you to the dictionary as well to look up 'equivocation'. I don't know if you're doing it intentionally or not, but you are doing it.

Originally posted by Jehosephat
I would also suggest, again, you look up the word equivocal to show that YOU are the one equivicating since you dont even understand the definiton of faith in the first place.

I am using the Biblcal definition of faith, and made the context explicit in the opening post. There is no ambiguity. If you don't like that definition, take it up with the apostle Paul.

I am not equivocating, as I am using a commonly accepted definition, made the context explicit, and have not changed it. Whether or not this exact definition is found at dictionary.com is irrelevant.

Originally posted by spamandham

"Faithful" in the sense you are using it here has nothing to do with this definition of faith. In the case of the spouse/lover, "faithful" means sexual fidelity. In the case of a servant, "faithful" implies diligence and honesty.

To most people, that is what 'faithful' means--but that concept is flawed, IMO...

Sexual fidelity is desired because infidelity causes insecurity--and ironically enough, is also caused by insecurity.

Security, diligence, and honesty--none of these things truly equal 'loyalty', or 'fidelty'--yet loyalty is the quality that brings trust into a relationship, whatever it's nature--and to trust another means they can safely trust you.

To be faithful, to another, in the truest sense of the word, means to be someone they can rely on, through thick and thin, in all things, having only their best interests motivating your deeds.

It's not about taking, it's about giving. It's not about fillling in holes, it's about building up castles.

Sexual fidelity, in and of itself, is of absolutely no value--if a man never ever cheats on his wife, that's good. If she gets cancer or MS, or something, and he leaves her because it's just too much to face or to handle (for whatever reason)--how much comfort will it be to her, sick and alone, to remember all those years he didn't screw around? Big deal.

Not finding pleasure elsewhere is not the same as running from the pain in your own house.

Sticking around for good and for bad--that is the definition of fidelity--and it works for any two people under the sun.

And as God said, 'It is not good for man to be alone.' This is truth! No one wants to be totally alone--it's just not healthy and it's not the way it is meant to be. And to reap the rewards of having a friend, one must be a friend as well.

But I just can't say it's a virtue--it's just something necessary for a healthy soul.

Originally posted by queenannie38
But I just can't say it's a virtue--it's just something necessary for a healthy soul.

That's fine and all, but the question isn't whether it is virtuous to be faithful to your spouse/lover, the question is why is there any virtue in faith defined as "belief in things hidden/unprovable"?


[edit on 30-8-2005 by spamandham]

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Jehosephat

Originally posted by spamandham

You've earned a highly coveted membership to my ignore list.

means nothing, since you were allraedy ignoring the contents of my posts and repeating the same thing without any more clarification or content

Originally posted by spamandham
Faith.

What is it about this word that people find virtuous? Why should it be considered a good thing to believe things that are hidden or unprovable?

I find the concept repulsive and the root cause behind the enslavement of mankind to both religious and political thinking.

Your thoughts?

Without faith there is no trust. Without trust, alone is all you are.

Even with relationships with all those you know, without faith in their virtues, how can you trust them?

If you can not trust in anyone be it family or friends, it will be you vs. everyone. And, as a result of your outlook on life, you will realize how flawed you are. And because you are flawed and you know it, but trust no one, you will spiral in an unpositive direction. For there is no on who can be trusted enough by you to aid you in any endevour. Why?

Because Faith itself repulses you.

Then you will lose what you were unaware you even had.

And that is a true ignorant fool.

Originally posted by spamandham


Ok, why is faith itself not the problem?

How can faith be the problem?

Without faith new neuro-pathways can not be formed to be more than what is already known.

People with faith in knowing what had yet to be proven is what makes people like Einstien.

People without faith leads to people who believe people with faith are ignorant fools, and liars.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Jehosephat
You never have bothered in this whole thread to clarify what definiton of faith you are using.

While it's true that I didn't provide a dictionary style definition, I did clarify the context in the opening post with this:

What is it about this word that people find virtuous? Why should it be considered a good thing to believe things that are hidden or unprovable?

Perhaps I'm expecting too much for people to read an entire short post to glean context.

Because without faith that "this or that" is true, how do you know what to look for?

If you are ignorant of what you are looking for, you won't even know you are looking at what you have been looking for.

Here is a better question for you:

How can someone find something that has been a secret and hidden without the faith necessary to keep looking for it?

It was faith in the unseen that led to people finding the unseen invisible waves that give you the technology to be here on ATS calling them liars and ignorant fools.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by Jehosephat

Originally posted by spamandham

You've earned a highly coveted membership to my ignore list.

HA HA!!!!

I earned this last week, primarily because this guy only ignores those he can not convert to his lonely world where there is no faith. People allowed to exist in his VERY SMALL bubble are those who are repulsed by faith and trust, but be warned:

If you are in his bubble, he will never have faith in you or your abilities, nor will he ever be able to trust you.

Originally posted by spamandham

You've earned a highly coveted membership to my ignore list.

PLEASE, I mean PLEASE add me to this list.

Also, some friends of mine want to know the annual dues for membership and are willing to pay for a lifetime membership, if it is available. My friends are:

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
- Albert Einstein, in The New Convergence

Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power.We have guided missiles and misguided men.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.

I believe that man will not merely endure: he will prevail. He is immortal, not because he alone among creatures has an inexhaustible voice, but because he has a soul, a spirit capable of compassion and sacrifice and endurance.
- William Faulkner, in his Nobel Prize acceptance speech

The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired.
- Stephen W. Hawking

To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.
- Stephen W. Hawking

Man can learn nothing except by going from the known to the unknown.
- Claude Bernard

Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.
- Albert Einstein

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mystical. It is the source of all true art and science.
- Albert Einstein

Do you remember how electrical currents and "unseen waves" were laughed at? The knowledge about man is still in its infancy.
- Albert Einstein

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible.
- Oscar Wilde

The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes.
- William James

As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of being.
- Carl Jung

Cease from practice based on intellectual understanding, pursuing words, and following after speech, and learn the backward step that turns your light inward to illuminate your self. Body and mind of themselves will drop away, and your original face will be manifest.
- Dogen

Although each of us obviously inhabits a separate physical body, the laboratory data from a hundred years of parapsychology research strongly indicate that there is no separation in consciousness.
- Russell Targ

I can see, and that is why I can be happy, in what you call the dark, but which to me is golden. I can see a God-made world, not a manmade world.
- Helen Keller

The gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing knowledge.
- Albert Einstein

A full-spectrum approach to human consciousness and behavior means that men and women have available to them a spectrum of knowing -a spectrum that includes, at the very least, the eye of flesh, the eye of mind, and the eye of spirit.
- Ken Wilber

All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force… We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.
- Max Planck, Nobel Prize-winning Father of Quantum Theory

I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details.
- Albert Einstein

In the century now dawning, spirituality, visionary consciousness, and the ability to build and mend human relationships will be more important for the fate and safety of this nation than our capacity to forcefully subdue an enemy. Creating the world we want is a much more subtle but more powerful mode of operation than destroying the one we don't want.
- Marianne Williamson

All great truths begin as blasphemies.
- George Bernard Shaw

What we are looking for is what is looking.
- St. Francis of Assisi

If you do not have the intellectual capacity or words to combat those who have FAITH, then ignore us and run .... run away.

Those who are ignored by the SPAM and HAM may be truly blessed.

Anyone on his ignore list are more than welcome on my buddy list.

Originally posted by Ophiuchus The Omega Male



If you do not have the intellectual capacity or words to combat those who have FAITH, then ignore us and run .... run away.

Those who are ignored by the SPAM and HAM may be truly blessed.

Anyone on his ignore list are more than welcome on my buddy list.

Nice. You can add me to that buddylist. I don't think there is much of a fee for the ignore list from Spam, all I did is state the obvious, and I'm on the list.

I'm blessed.




[edit on 1-9-2005 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by spamandham
Faith.

What is it about this word that people find virtuous?

When all else is gone, the only prerequisite for optimism remaining is faith. Without faith, even hope is nonexistent.

Faith is a necessity for those who percieve that all else is gone.

Faith is virtuous because it is the only positive remnants within the human psychi when a person knows they are dying and there is nothing they can do about it.

Faith is the only thing a person will have as they lay there for however long knowing their own existance cease to exist.

Faith is what permits people to stop fighting, stop suffering, stop contemplating their bodily systems shutting down one by one, and find peaceful release and rest free of guilt for leaving their friends and family behind.

Faith is the pinacle of empathy.

Faith is the only positive aspect of life that remains when all else ceases to be positive.

Why should it be considered a good thing to believe things that are hidden or unprovable?

It is a good thing to believe things that are hidden or unprovable because without believing things are hidden proving they are could not take place.

It is faith that is a prerequisite for believing things are hidden.

Believing things are hidden is a prerequisite for proving they are.

Without believing what was hidden we would not have:

radios, computers, satellites, phones, cell phones, television, space exploration, and the United States of America for that matter, to list a few.

I find the concept repulsive and the root cause behind the enslavement of mankind to both religious and political thinking.

Exactly correct!!!

Religious and Political thinking are the root cause for mankind's enslavement, especially if our faith is in religious and political thinking that promote fear and hate. Faith is what Faith is in the eyes of the beholder. And how people view faith dictates whether they are repulsed by what they have when they are all they have.

If all you have is yourself without faith, then of course faith repulses you.

Faith is a necessity, or dispare will be all you have when all else no longer remains.




If someone would be so kind as to quote me, it would be very appreciated, as I am on Spams ignore list. Thanks in advance, because I have faith that someone will do so.

Originally posted by Ophiuchus The Omega Male
If you do not have the intellectual capacity or words to combat those who have FAITH, then ignore us and run .... run away.

I draw the line at being dismissed outright simply for my beliefs and at unwarranted ad homs. This has nothing to do with the capacity to combat words and everything to do with not wasting time on obnoxious people.

Originally posted by Ophiuchus The Omega Male

Originally posted by spamandham

You've earned a highly coveted membership to my ignore list.

PLEASE, I mean PLEASE add me to this list.

Request granted.