Faith in faith

Faith.

What is it about this word that people find virtuous? Why should it be considered a good thing to believe things that are hidden or unprovable?

I find the concept repulsive and the root cause behind the enslavement of mankind to both religious and political thinking.

Your thoughts?

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Faith is only as good as that thing in which it is placed. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar at worst and ignorant at best.


Machine

spanandham,

i can see where you are coming from. and faith to some degree can be a bad thing. you do need to look at the facts. however faith in something when placed in the right thing can be benficial. sometimes you just have to take a leap. for example, you fall in love with someone, they say they love you back, but you cant read their mind, so how do you really know. now you could base it on how they treat you, but even sometimes that isnt good enough and you still get fooled. So at some point you say to yourself as long as im happy being where i am, and i feel loved by this person, ill put my faith in the promises that they are laying before me. same with religion in a sense. as a christian myself, i am very interested in science, and philosophy, and question things that are set before me, because imhop God gave me a brain. but i cant literally see God, and i wasnt there when the bible was written. So i go by the actions of God in my life, and listen to my gut/concience on what i believe to be truth. I know you have heard the old saying "you cant see the wind but you can see the effects of the wind thats how you know its there". a blind man does the same thing. hes never seen a tree or the sky, or a bird, or a woman, but people tell him that they exist and he uses the senses that he has capable to him and tries his best to understand the concept. now thats blind faith literally. he goes by what he feels and hears and tastes to understand the best he can and trust what we are saying to him. now someday he could gain his sight back and realise that the sky is really green. but he'll never really know until that day comes. We also put faith in ourselves everyday. we trust that we can perform a certian duty well, sure there is room for failure or error but we put hope in our past expericences of being accurate and ventor forth. thats pretty much what faith is.

Kind Regards,
DigitalGrl

[edit on 10/01/2004 by DigitalGrl]

Originally posted by Machine
Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

You don't get it machine. Since faith is invalid, plucking a passage out of the Bible that says faith is the ultimate virtue only demonstrates that the Bible is false.

Originally posted by Machine
Faith is only as good as that thing in which it is placed. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar at worst and ignorant at best.


Machine

Faith is worthless. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either a liar or an ignorant fool.

Isn't it fun to demonize all who disagree with you?

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
however faith in something when placed in the right thing can be benficial. sometimes you just have to take a leap. for example, you fall in love with someone, they say they love you back, but you cant read their mind, so how do you really know. now you could base it on how they treat you, but even sometimes that isnt good enough and you still get fooled.

I would say that even in matters of love, faith is neither necessary nor beneficial. You can't know for sure, so you weigh the costs, benefits, and risks, and act accordingly.

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
So at some point you say to yourself as long as im happy being where i am, and i feel loved by this person, ill put my faith in the promises that they are laying before me.

That isn't faith, that's trust. If you are prudent, you will require that such trust be earned. Yet, you can't know they will always love you. Odds are, they won't.

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
So i go by the actions of God in my life,

How do you know it is god acting and not something else?

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
and listen to my gut/concience on what i believe to be truth.

Truth is not ascertained by introspection. It is obtained by observation combined with reason.

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
a blind man does the same thing. hes never seen a tree or the sky, or a bird, or a woman, but people tell him that they exist and he uses the senses that he has capable to him and tries his best to understand the concept. now thats blind faith literally.

That's not faith, that's belief. Faith is belief based on hope/desire. Faith is a subset of the general category of belief, which means that not all belief is faith.

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
We also put faith in ourselves everyday. we trust that we can perform a certian duty well, sure there is room for failure or error but we put hope in our past expericences of being accurate and ventor forth. thats pretty much what faith is.

This is reasoned judgement, not faith. Life compells us to make decisions with incomplete information. We weigh the costs, benefits and risks, and proceed with the option we deem most advantageous. This is what belief is in general.

Faith is a subset of belief where a conclusion is arrived at not based on the rational (though generally subconscious) cost/benefit analysis, but rather, based on wishing something were true.

i respect your opinon.

i guess when i say i have faith i look at it as reasoned judgement. the definition of faith you are describing i would agree is not benefical. and i think some people practice it that way. i think a person should continue to ask questions. that brain is there for something. and some people think its wrong to look further...and that is their choice.

But in religion for example we are left with certain data that is missing or that we cant fully understand. and as you said we practice that same philsophy in many aspects of our daily lives. so people that believe in God arent all ignorant fools.

as far as how do i know its God.. well...i just know. its just something personal that ive experienced. Sort of like love for a significant other. you assume its love but you dont really know for sure until after that honeymoon stage and things start to get "real". i dont want to preach or anything. so ill just say that its something that i have concluded based on a personal relationship and study.


Kind Regards,
DigitalGrl

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
i respect your opinon.

i guess when i say i have faith i look at it as reasoned judgement. the definition of faith you are describing i would agree is not benefical and i think some people practice it that way. i think a person should continue to ask questions. that brain is there for something. and some people think its wrong to look further...and that is their choice.

What a rare treat to find a point of agreement on an issue such as this!

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
But in religion for example we are left with certain data that is missing or that we cant fully understand.

While it may be true that there is insufficient information to arrive at a reasoned conclusion, I'm not convinced we are incapable of comprehension. I would argue that those who make such claims had better have some darn good reason (not to be confused with motivation) for making such a claim. When knowledge is unatainable, or scarce, those who claim to have knowledge are obligated to prove it, or be dispensed as biased apologists trying to promote an agenda.

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
as far as how do i know its God.. well...i just know. its just something personal that ive experienced.

I have yet to find an argument to counter "personal experience", but I know from my own "personal experience" that it is possible to convince myself something is true that later turns out not to have been true.

As the result of trial and error and the resulting personal loss (particularly in investing and love), I have learned that "personal experience" (as typically used in religious contexts) is not a valid way to obtain knowledge. This isn't to say I reject sensory information, but rather, I recognize my own tendency to accept as true that which I find desirable. It takes concerted effort to fight such a destructive impulse.

Regards.

Yes i understand what you are saying.
I guess my statement on "well i just know" comes from me taking my knowledge that i obtain through studying various concepts in science, history, amongst other subjects and then testing certian belief systems that are in placed in front of me to choose from and i made a choice based on study and experience. then along with my choices come the senory experience you spoke of that re-establishes my belief so to speak.

i agree, that alot of people dont assert themselves to just plain learn about whats going on around them and instead accept the first thing that pops up. and then use faith to justify the parts they dont understand because they choose not to continue studying what it is they belief in corrilation with how the world works.

God never said you cant ask questions. and i dont know why some people find it so taboo to do so. i pray and ask questions all the time. if i have a doubt i would think that God expects me to search for the answer. if i cant then i trust that someday i will know. whether it be when im older or after i die.

i do agree with you about your statement which said there are certian things we cannot comprehend. i know alot of people who try to force certain dogma on other people and while i believe that there is only one truth, who says that we..mere people 1. have the right to judge others about it and 2. understand it 100%. and i think thats pretty much where you are coming from correct? if there is a higher being out their which i Call God/Jesus then he would understand more than me. and im sure in your place it gets frustrating being confronted with people to claim to understand just as much as God himself would. trust me its not just you that it pisses off

i would say, ask questions keep searching when you are having doubts or curiousities and in the mean time thats where faith comes in. i use faith as a motivator for myself. and some people use it as an excuse to be apathetic. "well i have faith in God so who cares wheather or not ive read a single book in the bible" or "i have faith in science so who cares whether or not i know any of the theories. or"i love this person so who cares whether or not i know about their past". that type of faith...is ignorant and foolish. But im 19 ...so i have alot to learn still

Kind Regards,
DigitalGrl

I brather put my faith in God, rather than put my faith in no God. I rather believe in something that is there, without a dout than. Having proof that he is there. And just because faith is in the bible does not in anyway proof that God is not here.

Sometimes bad thing happen and we can not control what happen. But just because bad things happen does not mean God is not watching you. God loves Spam, no matter what, and he's going to try to teach you to walk in his paths some day. And hopefully you will open your eyes. Just know this just because bad thing happen does not mean God is not watching.

Originally posted by slymattb
God loves Spam, no matter what, and he's going to try to teach you to walk in his paths some day.

Sure he will. Just like he did for Carl Sagan?

If you love something, set it free. If it returns, it's yours to keep. If not, fry it in hell for eternity

Somehow this just doesn't have the right ring to it.

Originally posted by slymattb
Just know this just because bad thing happen does not mean God is not watching.

What makes you think I reject your silly superstition as the result of "bad things"?

Originally posted by spamandham
Faith.

What is it about this word that people find virtuous? Why should it be considered a good thing to believe things that are hidden or unprovable?

I find the concept repulsive and the root cause behind the enslavement of mankind to both religious and political thinking.

Your thoughts?

There are many things hidden and unprovable, many of which are posted about on this website. There are those that believe in aliens yet there is really no proof, are they repulsive? I don't think so. Faith can mean many things and not just in a religious sense. What about having faith in yourself? Is that concept repulsive? Of course not. It still confuses me as to why religion is attacked so just because a person believes in something that someone else does not. I would agree that those religious extremist that try and shove religion down folks thought are wrong and certainly give a bad name but they are not the majority even though they act like it. We all have differing thoughts, feelings and opinions and that is what makes us special and unique. I enjoy living in a world where people have different views and would be quite bored if we all sat around just agreeing with each other.

Originally posted by anniejhops
There are those that believe in aliens yet there is really no proof, are they repulsive?

Those who believe in aliens tend to do so because they find the body of evidence sufficient rather than simply because they want to. Faith is the subset of belief based on hope/desire rather than belief in general.

When people stress the importance of belief, you are probably discussing faith, but not all belief is faith.

I do not necessarily find those who rely on faith repulsive, I find the concept of faith repulsive. Big difference.

Originally posted by anniejhops
What about having faith in yourself? Is that concept repulsive? Of course not.

Again, you are using faith and belief synonymously. Do I believe I can lift 400 pounds simply because I hope I can? No. Do I believe I can provide a theory of everything simply because I wish it? No. I do not have faith in myself, I have belief in my proven abilities. That isn't faith.

Originally posted by anniejhops
It still confuses me as to why religion is attacked so just because a person believes in something that someone else does not. I would agree that those religious extremist that try and shove religion down folks thought are wrong and certainly give a bad name but they are not the majority even though they act like it.

You answered your own question. Religion breeds a small percentage of extremists who then cause all the problems. It's inherent to the concept of faith.

If you believe knowledge can be obtained through faith, you lose your ability to discern reality from fantasy; this breeds the worst kind of extremism.

If we stay to faith in terms of religion only I still would disagree that this is repulsive or ignorant. Religion is very real to so many of us and I would agree that those of us who do have faith should not force our faith on others or attack them for not believing. On the same note, just because a person does not believe in faith/religion does note mean they should attack those that do either. I have read several things on this website from theories to aliens to conspiracies and I can't say I believe all of them but that is ok. I would disagree that there is sufficient evidence of aliens just like I suspect you disagree about evidence of religion and faith.

It comes down to what you want to believe and why and whether you inside feel the evidence is strong enough. For me, it is, if it is not for another than it is not. People need to learn to listen to all sides and be so quick to place labels and names on things simply because they disagree. It is human for us to do so I know and we all struggle with are strong feelings and thoughts on issues.

There is the kind of 'faith' which is belief--I have faith my car will start tomorrow because I have taken care of it and put gas in it. That faith is based on my own knowledge and efforts toward that end.

Then there is the kind of faith like little kids have in all sorts of imagined things, personal and universal (tooth fairy, the great pumpkin). This is a true blind faith, and as such is okay since it serves some purpose in development and plays itself out as its need diminishes. They are mainly based on wishes and fears.

Adults also practice blind faith, almost in an identical way, when they choose when and how they are going to believe in their idea of God.

How can something both irrational and powerless--considering we mostly believe because of post-mortem uncertainty we have no control over, in the first place--bring about divine power to save us from the fear that causes us to think irrationally no matter how we approach the rest of our lives? How smart is it to place all your eggs in the basket of a god who needs you--the one who must be saved--to help him 'save' you? What a hopeful prospect that would be --is the glass half-empty or half-full?

There is one other kind of faith that I can think of--which is best defined as: the condition of a firm and devoted adherence to a promise made, loyal--demonstrating of worthiness of trust; reliable; trustworthy. This is a quality that is crucial to true friendship--a trait of that person who can always be trusted to act upon your best interests just because they said they would.

Most everyone thinks that it is the 'belief' kind of faith which brings salvation from death--but it is actually the last kind of faith that I described which is able to save. And it's not dependent upon our individual abilities to have a credible attitude toward something--it has only to do with a promise given out of a love and friendship between Deity and a man He counted as a 'friend'--and it all came down to the faithfulness of a man who would lay down His life for His friends--whose love would extend this to their friends, and their friends, and their friends, etc....until everyone received something priceless because God never breaks a promise.

Men can neither truly keep a promise or believe a promise with absolute reliability--and to say that they can do so to the extent that they can somehow assist their own helplessness is a discriminatory viewpoint that serves as an excellent diversionary tactic for the psyche.

Originally posted by anniejhops
If we stay to faith in terms of religion only I still would disagree that this is repulsive or ignorant.

Of course it's ignorance. It's basically defined as such. (faith is belief in that which is hoped for/unseen according to Paul)

Whether or not you find it repugnant is a matter of opinion.

Originally posted by anniejhops
On the same note, just because a person does not believe in faith/religion does note mean they should attack those that do either.

Is it really considered an attack to point out inconsistencies and demand substantiation for spectacular claims? Is it an attack to openly proclaim that I find faith to be repulsive?

My "belief system" is reason. By pointing out that the concept of faith is fundamentally flawed, I'm merely promoting my system. If you don't care about reason, then the fact that faith is unreasonable should not bother you in the least. Your attitude of tolerance for various beliefs must also aply to mine if you are to be consistent.

And yet no matter what you do Faith is a belief system too. Faith is Out there. It's not just in a book. its in human hearts to. its faith thats brings us to keep going on. When you have nothing, when you have no one, when your sleeping only outside in a dich. and have no reason to go on. Its faith that life can get better, that lets you continue your life. Weather thats by God power or not faith is a living emotion. fear, love, being scare, pain, where does that emotions come from??????

Originally posted by slymattb
And yet no matter what you do Faith is a belief system too. Faith is Out there. It's not just in a book. its in human hearts to. its faith thats brings us to keep going on. When you have nothing, when you have no one, when your sleeping only outside in a dich. and have no reason to go on. Its faith that life can get better, that lets you continue your life. Weather thats by God power or not faith is a living emotion. fear, love, being scare, pain, where does that emotions come from??????

There is a difference between faith (in a religious context) and belief or hope.

If I ever find myself sleeping outside in a ditch, it won't be faith that motivates me, it will be pain and misery.

(does passing out on a pile of fire ants due to excessive drinking count the same as sleeping in a ditch?)

first lets make this clear, there is multiple definitons of faith: 1. a belief or trust. 2. alligance or duty to a person. 3 Firm belief in God, religion, or doctirne even in the absance of proof. 4. Complete trust 5. something that is belived in with a strong conviction

We have faith every morning that when we turn the key to start our car that it will start

We have faith in that we will have hot running water to take a shower with everyday

A dog has faith that thier master will come back home. Just as christians have faith that Jesus will come again to earth to bring the souls of the faithful to heaven

Faith is also a sign of loyalty and devotion, even if that object of devotion or loyalty you ,spamandham, do not personally belive even exists

These are all reason why I try to explane to Spam that Faith is a belief system, a powerful one at that. There are many types if faith, but end the end faith use to keep going on. Spam you said it would be pain that keeps letting you go on. But its faith that make you believe that life can get better. Or at least get you out of the pain your in. My points is these emotions come from some where how do you get scare, where does love come from,humor, hatered, feels good. Where do they come from??

Besides if you cant notice the evil in the world your blind.

Originally posted by Jehosephat
first lets make this clear, there is multiple definitons of faith: 1. a belief or trust. 2. alligance or duty to a person. 3 Firm belief in God, religion, or doctirne even in the absance of proof. 4. Complete trust 5. something that is belived in with a strong conviction

There are multiple definitions, which is why it's important to specify which one you are referring to.

If you use one definition in one context, and a different definition in another context, and then try to show they are equal by way of the common word 'faith', you are guilty of equivocating, which is an act of deception.

Let's watch this form of deception in action shall we?

Originally posted by Jehosephat
We have faith every morning that when we turn the key to start our car that it will start

We have faith in that we will have hot running water to take a shower with everyday

Here we're using definition (1).

Originally posted by Jehosephat
A dog has faith that thier master will come back home.

Here we're using definition (5).

Originally posted by Jehosephat
Just as christians have faith that Jesus will come again to earth to bring the souls of the faithful to heaven

Here we're using (3).


Three different definitions that you equate by means of a common word with multiple definitions. Do you realize you're equivocating?