As A Jew, Allow Me To Tell It Like It Is

Quote: "What truly troubles me is, Jews these days are treating Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims as if they rule them, like little Hitlers. Jews have yet to learn from their own past. Jews are very bias, unfair and deliberately ransacking any dreams the Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims may have had after the fall of the Ottoman Turkish Empire. It's a disgrace to be a Jew in this ongoing bloodbath. This is truly arrogance. "

Interesting and well, in my opinion - honest. The thing I have recognized and mentioned here before is the amount of death through terrorism in Israel.
I have trouble undestanding how a free and democratic people can continually go through such horendous death at anothers hands and still be willing to negotiate? I'm not Jewish but I do feel for anyone in any race in any Country who has their life taken from them at the hands of a terrorist.
respectfully,
Dallas

Originally posted by 39 drops of solder

In Israel, any parent who is Jewish, the child, male or female, is a Jew

No. That is wrong.

In Israel, "Jew" is any person whose mother (fathers don't count) was a Jew or any person who has converted to Judaism.

Dallas, the problem is they are not.

People forget about the ISF using ambulances to transport troops.
Destruction of villages.
Assassinations of people.
Murder of thousands of innocent people.
Tanks firing into Egypt, Palestine, etc.

People need to understand that one person's opinion remains just that - one person's opinion, regardless of what background they claim to be from.

Simply because someone is "Jewish" doesn't make them a sudden authority on the state of Israel. Sorry to disappoint.

This thread should be titled "I'm Jewish, Allow Me To Tell It Like I Think It is".

It's his opinion, and that's all. Others differ, and have every right to.

The interpretation of what or who is a Jew is left up to opinion, because it is inferred not specified in the Tanakh (Jewish law). It is not an explicit or clear line that points out, a Jewish mother therefore, a Jewish child.

The book I am reading from is the Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, published by the Jewish Publication Society:

A clear line in the Torah reads:

"If anyone insults his father and his mother, he shall be put to death; he has insulted his father and his mother, his bloodguilt is upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

"If a man commit adultery with a married woman, committing adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10)

"When the daughter of a priest defiles herself through harlotry, it is her father whom she defiles; she shall be put to the fire." (Leviticus 21:9)


But when a line like this reads:

"There came out among the Israelites one whose mother was Israelite and whose father was Egyptian. And a fight broke out in the camp between the half-Israelite and a certain Israelite. The son of the Israelite woman pronounced the Name in blasphemy, and he was brought to Moses, - now his mother was Shelomith daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan - and he was placed in custody, until the decision of the Lord should be made clear to them." (Leviticus 24:10-12)

Leviticus 24:10-12 is about the way in which Orthodox Judaism or Halakha infers that a male or female born from a Jewish mother is a Jew or Hebrew from that quoted passage from the Tanakh.

Yet, the other Leviticus passages I quoted from, are very clear.

I rather rely on specific or explicit explanations or passages than on something I can infer from.

Riwka, what I meant by Israel and Jewish immigration, is this (I'll be more specific , if a gentile is converted to Judaism outside of Israel, and that person, after becoming Jewish, wants to go and live in Israel, that person will be turned away because only someone born as a Jew with a birth certificate as evidence or authenticity, will be able to acquire Israeli citizenship.

Let us rest this issue, because this topic does not belong in the New World Order section. Let's not be so arrogant that we can do whatever we like because we are Hebrew or Jewish. I certainly don't think this, but others may.

Thanks for your time, Edward

Originally posted by 39 drops of solder

The interpretation of what or who is a Jew is left up to opinion

No. This is wrong.

Halakhah defines who is a Jew.

Originally posted by 39 drops of solder

Tanakh (Jewish law)

Tanakh is more or less what Christians call "Old Testament."

Halakhah (jewish law) is made up of

• the unchangeable 613 mitzvot (“commandments“) from the Torah (the first five books of the Bible)
  
  
• Takanot (laws that was instituted by the rabbis)
  
  
• Gezeirot (laws instituted by the rabbis to prevent people from accidentally violating a Torah mitzva)
  
  

A Takanah, like a Gezeirah, is just as binding as a Torah mitzvah, but the Beit Din (Rabbinical Court) can, in rare appropriate circumstances, modify or abrogate Takanot and Gezeirot. (The Torah, [Deuteronomy 17:11] gives the Beit Din the legislative power)

Furthermore, there are Minhagim (customs or traditions)

Riwka, what I meant by Israel and Jewish immigration, is this (I'll be more specific

, if a gentile is converted to Judaism outside of Israel, and that person, after becoming Jewish, wants to go and live in Israel, that person will be turned away

No. That is wrong.



Under the Registration Act of 1965, a Jew is defined as "a person born to a Jewish mother or who has converted to Judaism and is not a member of another religion." The identical definition is also used in the

Law of Return

[...]

Law of Return (Amendment No. 2) 5730-1970
Addition of sections 4A and 4B (Definition)
[...]

4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."


Furthermore, the rights of a Jew under this Law, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew. [see Law of Return 4A. (a) (b)]

Originally posted by 39 drops of solder

because only someone born as a Jew with a birth certificate as evidence or authenticity, will be able to acquire Israeli citizenship.

No. This is wrong.

Acquisition of Israeli Nationality:

Israel's Nationality Law relates to persons born in Israel or resident therein, as well as to those wishing to settle in the country, regardless of race, religion, creed, sex or political belief.

Citizenship may be acquired by:

• Birth
  
  
• The Law of Return
  
  
• Residence
  
  
• Naturalization
  

[edit on 9-8-2005 by Riwka]

If you really want to get technical Riwka, today's rabbis allow a gentile to convert and become Jewish, which should be impossible since Israel is a "seed", the seed of Abraham (again, speaking of the father, not the mother). God told Abraham that he would multiply his seed. If a gentile converts in the faith and becomes Jewish, he is considered a "Ger". A rabbi uses any other book or law besides the OT to determine who is a Jew, it is still unbiblical. You can't add laws that are already there!

Originally posted by Valerina
A rabbi uses any other book or law besides the OT to determine who is a Jew, it is still unbiblical.

No, that is wrong.

What Christians call the 'Old Testament' is known to Jews as the Tanakh.

In addition to the written scriptures we (Jews) have an "Oral Torah," - a tradition explaining what the scriptures mean and how to interpret them and apply the Laws.

(About the 2d century C.E., the oral law was compiled and written down in a document called the Mishnah. Over the next few centuries, additional commentaries elaborating on the Mishnah were written down in Jerusalem and Babylon. These additional commentaries are known as the Gemara.
The Gemara and the Mishnah together are known as the Talmud.)

Originally posted by Valerina
Israel is a "seed", the seed of Abraham (again, speaking of the father, not the mother). God told Abraham that he would multiply his seed.

No That is wrong.

Israel is not a "seed".

YES; G-d told Abraham that he would multiply his seed. Abraham accepted this offer, and the b'rit (covenant) between G-d and the Jewish people was established. (Gen. 12).

BUT....Not all of Abrahams children have been JEWS!

• Hagar was a daughter of Pharaoh and NOT a JEW.
  Hagar bore Abraham a son, Ishmael,
  Ishmael is Abrahams ‚seed‘ – but: He is NOT a JEW
  According to both Muslim and Jewish tradition,
  Ishmael is the ancestor of the Arabs. (Gen 16)
  
  
  
• Abraham and Sarah have been the first Jews and
  Sarah bore Abraham a son, Yitzchak (= Isaac) (Gen 17-18).
  Yitzchak was the ancestor of the Jewish people.
  

Israel is not a "seed".


[edit on 9-8-2005 by Riwka]

Not sure why people in this century are still under the mistaken view that converts are not treated equally.

The language in the old testament is very clear on this:

Leviticus 19:34

The stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

It specifically states that converts MUST be treated the exact same way as those born Jewish. I don't think it's possible to read that verse any other way.

The concept of anyone Jewish being able to become a citizen of Israel (which was clearly instituted to prevent repeats of WWII and the immediate period afterward - see the travels of the "Exodus") was indeed written to include converts as well.

Originally posted by 39 drops of solder
"If anyone insults his father and his mother, he shall be put to death; he has insulted his father and his mother, his bloodguilt is upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

"If a man commit adultery with a married woman, committing adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10)

"When the daughter of a priest defiles herself through harlotry, it is her father whom she defiles; she shall be put to the fire." (Leviticus 21:9)

I dont know what your sayig using the first two quotes, but the last is easy. Only men can be priests, so by defiling heself, a daughter of a priest has destroyed the priests reputation.


By the way, the definition of a Jew is still being discussed today by rabbis so obviouslly nobody here is qualified to answer. And the reason a conversion isnt mentioned in the torah is that a person "converted" just by living with the people and accepting God and his laws.

Eslag, what I meant by the first two passages from the Tanakh is, any layman could understand its meaning (and so with the third verse), but Leviticus 24:10 about the Jewish mother is unclear to a layman. That was my point...I just so happen to choose those three passages that were clear to understand.

Riwka, then I guess what my own Rabbi (Weg) of the Chabad House-Lubavitch (of Lubavitcher Rebbe/Rabbi Menachem Schneersohn) told me was wrong about the Halakha. Nothing like having a layman tell me a Rabbi (my own yet) is wrong.

Riwka, I grant you that, you have brought me up to date with the converted Jews being accepted into Israel (the Israel I do not support). But still on the issue of Jewish mother or Jewish faither in turn who is Jewish. I hold to the reasoning that if the blood is there, be it either parent, one is Jewish or Hebrew (I prefer being called Hebrew). Because the Deuteronomy 7:1-5, Leviticus 24:10, Ezra 10:2-3 are not easily understood by the layman (let alone Rabbis in general...reason for reformed Judaism, which too had Rabbis up to the present, differ from traditional teachings...so who is right?)

To say, an Orthodox Jew as opposed to a Reformed Jew is different, is really confusing the subject-matter, because we are all Jews (or Hebrews). And then to throw in the zionist issue, wow, the world of a Jew or Hebrew gets really crazy.

We're Hebrews (Jews) by descent. Hitler would not be wondering what if, it was a mother or a father who is Jewish, which one counts...either parent, the child dies.

Anyway, I like the fact that both my parents were Hebrews/Jews, that way, there is no way around the fact that I am Hebrew. But for the guy or gal who only has a father who is Jewish and a mother who is Italian (or whatever), and to say, you are not a (religious) Jew or Hebrew without conversion is downright foolhardy (but I guess, this is my opinion and all Reformed Rabbi(s) opinions).

What a big joke we played on one another as Hebrews/Jews, let alone those who support the zionist cause. We must look pretty downright stupid to a non-Hebrew/Jew because we can't even decide who we are.

Stupid, stupid, stupid...and most of all, arrogant.

If by blood, then you are Hebrew (Jew). Only someone who thinks themselves so peculiar, or who is looking for problems, will think otherwise.

Now, I promise - I do not know about anyone else in this thread - but I will no longer speak about this topic under New World Order (I will speak about it in Conspiracies in Religions section).

Enjoyed the debate, and thanks for your time, Edward

[edit on 8/10/2005 by 39 drops of solder]

Don't blame the UK for Israel's crimes.

We never wanted the problem, we offered Uganda as a site for a jewish homeland but zionists (mainly in US) refused.

Nothing to do with us

Originally posted by 39 drops of solder

I hold to the reasoning that if the blood is there, be it either parent, one is Jewish

Put it simple:
It is of no interest what reasoning one single person hold.

No matter wether a Jew is an Ashkenazi or Mizrahi or Sephardi orTemani:
From Orthodoxy to Reform, from Haredi to Masorti, from Chabad to Reconstructionist Judaism movement -
each Jewish movement generally accepts the binding nature of Halakhah (jewish law).

Originally posted by 39 drops of solder

Riwka, then I guess what my own Rabbi (Weg) of the Chabad House-Lubavitch (of Lubavitcher Rebbe/Rabbi Menachem Schneersohn) told me was wrong about the Halakha.

Jewish law is not based on a literal reading of the Tanakh, but on the combined oral and written tradition.

I think your missunderstandings came up because you do not know the basic level of Judaism. But that is no problem, you could learn them, if you are interested in Judaism. Jew or Non-Jew, you are always welcome to attend services in a synagogue

(eg: You could simply read Deut. 7:3-4 and the Talmud (Kiddushin 68b) explains how this law is evident from those passages - or read Mishnah Kiddushin 3:12 to find out that you ARE a Jew if mother was a Jew and that you are NO Jew if your mother was NO Jew and your father was a Jew. You would have to go through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.)

Originally posted by 39 drops of solder

Riwka, I grant you that, you have brought me up to date with the converted Jews being accepted into Israel

Thanks - but this has been very easy. I am an Israeli citizen,

"Law Of Return" is one of Israels "Laws of Special Interest".

Originally posted by 39 drops of solder

an Orthodox Jew as opposed to a Reformed Jew is different

so what? There are different Christian denominations, different Islam denominations, different Buddhism denominations, different Hinduism denominations – why not different Jews?

Originally posted by 39 drops of solder

Hitler would not be wondering what if, it was a mother or a father who is Jewish, which one counts...either parent, the child dies.

Make no mistake, 39 drops of solder....

The Nuremberg law has never been a part of Jewish Law – and a person can’t be "half Jewish."

It is only up to Jews to define halakhic issues.


[edit on 10-8-2005 by Riwka]

Originally posted by 39 drops of solder

Riwka, then I guess what my own Rabbi (Weg) of the Chabad House-Lubavitch (of Lubavitcher Rebbe/Rabbi Menachem Schneersohn) told me was wrong about the Halakha.

One last thing to add here:

Let me qoute Chabad Online Network (a division of the Chabad-Lubavitch Media Center):

"the answer to the question ‘Who is a Jew?’ is very clear:

one who was born to a Jewish mother or has converted to Judaism according to the laws stipulated in the Torah"


I am very sure US Rabbi Yehuda Weg will not say anything different.

[edit on 11-8-2005 by Riwka]

Groupies:

Don't forget for a moment that 90% of the people in the world who call themselves "Jews" are Ashkenazim, i.e. NON SEMITIC descendants of forced conversions of the Khazars to Judaeism in the area around present day Kiev in the Ukraine in the period between 8th to 10th centuries AD. Read Arthur Koestler's Book THE THIRTEENTH TRIBE. THe Ashkenazim are NON SEMITIC descendants of CONVERTS to Judaism. The reason for the conversion was political: Hemmed in between Byzantine Christians in the west and Muslims in the east, the Khazarian court decided upon a Bava Metzia ("middle gate") i.e. finding a state religion which was common to both of their political enemies, i.e. rabinnic Judaiasm.

The other 10% of people today who regard themselves as Jews are the socalled "Sephardim" (from the Heb. for "Spain") but even these originally racially Semitic Canaanitish peoples have NOT remained genetically pure for the most part and have heavilly mixed (racially) into the local populations where they live in the world over the last 20 centuries i.e. since Rome destroyed and finally dispersed Judah in AD 138--and so have lost their "levetical" markers (i.e. genetic roots).

So we cannot speak of "Jews" today as a "race" but only perhaps as a "people" with a certain commonality of practice and Weltanschauung. On a genetic level there are very few people who refer to themselves as "Jews" who are in any way related BY BLOOD to the ancient Israelitish tribelets.

As for the Sephardi, most of the "10 lost tribes of Israel" (whoever they were, if you read Judges chapter 5, the socalled Song of Deborah who seems to know of a different set of tribes than the ones most people know !) i.e. those that were exiled into what is now northern Iraq during the Assyrian deportations (c. 721 to 701 BC) melded into the local Assyro-Babylonian cultures and are now today practicign Muslims living in Afghanistan and northern Iraq etc..

This is why many of the Kurds and Afghanis today have the socalled Levetical marker in their genes.

Israel's northern kingdom's destruction in 721-701 BC resulted in over 50,000 people runing south into the area around Jerusalem, so some vestiges of the 10 lost tribes melded into Judah and Benjamin, themselves made up of tribelets (e.g. the Othnielites etc.). Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and Judah in 587BC and deported even more refugees into what is now Iraq today, mainly the priestly class of Levites (who could read and write and foster rebellion) and metal workers (who could have made swords etc.) .

Don't forget: of the 24 levetical priestly families that were exiled into Babylon in 587 BC, only 4 Levetical priestly families ever came back to Judah ---the rest stayed put and married the Babylonians.

The priests that DID go back to Palestine were short handed and had to find gentiles (e.g. Greeks, Assyrians, Persians, Egyptians etc.) to fill up their number for services in the temple: these were called the netanim (read the heavilly redacted and fragmentary books of Ezra-Nehemiah for a taste of this); Persia destroyed Babylon in 530 BC and sent some exiles home, but the rest married into Babylonian society, and some remained Jews in Babylon, and eventually came up with the Masoretic Text of the OT which most Jews read today (the Palestinian versions of the Old Testament Tanak found in copies in the Qumran caves were supressed by Hillell II in AD 90 after Rome destroyed Israel after a failed revolt (the 1st Jewish war against Rome, AD 66-72). Josephus says that 900,000 Palestinian Jews were killed in this War which was 2/3 of their world population at the time---an even worse percentage than the Nazi purges in 1940-1945.

The 2nd Judaean attempt to throw off the Roman yoke in AD 137 by Bar Kochba again ended in failure for the Judaeans, and resulted in several thousand remaining Palestinian Jews being literally scattered to the four winds and these refugees eventually mingled into Europe, north Africa and other places in the middle east where they gave up their Jewish identity and practicing any form of Judaiesm for the most part. Many became either Christians or Muslims.

Despite several tiny conclaves of Palestinian Jewish exiles in places like Babylon and Spain, 75% to 80%of the world's Jews that had been scattered abroad converted to other religions or died off in the wars against their oppressors over the centuries (Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and finally Rome).

So...there are very very very very few persons living today who practice the Jewish faith (or one of them, since there are many Judaisms being practiced today, all of them non-sacrificial, i.e. without a Temple to offer blood sacrifices to their clan god)who are in any way blood-related to the ancient Israelites.

So be careful by thinking Jews are a distinct race any more or that you can trace Jewish ancestry either through the mother or the father. It is a MOOT POINT.

Modern day Jews (especially in Israel) may link themselves together by religion and customs, but genetically, they are so thoroughly mixed in with non Jewish blood (or descended like the Ashkenazi, from Khazarian Ukrainian CONVERTS to Judaeism during the Middle Ages) as to nullify the very concept of a separate "race", at least at the genetic level.

This information is not new, just supressed: it is only now coming out to the general public (especially slow to percolate in America) , since many sociological and genetic scholars who have studied this complex issue from 1940-1990 were very loathe to publish their findings in the wake of the sympathy for this group following the Nazi purges in Europe during the Second World War.

If you want to know more about the Khazarian conversion, Arthur Koestler, a respected scholar and author of more than 20 books (himself an Ashkenazi) is an excellent place to start your research...

Just a little clarification for this group...whom I assume would like to deal with facts rather than fiction !

Originally posted by NEOAMADEUS
Groupies:
90% of the people in the world who call themselves "Jews" are Ashkenazim,

The other 10% of people today who regard themselves as Jews are the socalled "Sephardim"

No. That is wrong

Jews have historically been divided into four major ethnic groups:

• Ashkenazim: Jews from Germany or Eastern Europe
  
  
• Edut haMizrach (Oriental or "Mizrahi" Jews) Jews from the Middle East with some spreading to Central Asia and South Asia).
  
  
• Sephardim: Jews from Spain or Portugal.
  
  
• Yemenite Jews
  

Smaller Jewish groups are described in terms of their historic geography

• Gruzim are Georgian-speaking Jews from Georgia in the Caucasus.
  
• Juhurim are mountain Jews mainly from Daghestan in the eastern Caucasus.
  
• Bene Israel are the Jews of Mumbai, India.
  
• Cochin Jews are also Indian Jews.
  
• Romaniotes are Greek-speaking Jews from the Balkans that lived there from the Hellenistic era until today.
  
• Ethiopian Jews and various other small African Jewish populations are also found.
  
• Bukharan Jews are Jews from Central Asia. They get their name from the Uzbek city of Bukhara, which once had a large community.
  
• Baghdadi Jews They came from Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Arab countries and settled in India in 18th Century.
  
• Bnei Menashe. A group of Jews living in Manipur and Mizoram in northeastern India, claiming descent from the dispersed Biblical Tribe of Menasseh.
  
• Krymchaks and Karaim are Turkic-speaking Jews of the Crimea and Eastern Europe. The Krymchaks practice rabbinical Judaism, while the Karaim are Karaites. Whether they are primarily the descendants of Israelite Jews who adopted Turkic language and culture, or the descendants of Turkic converts to Judaism, is still debated.
  
• Chinese Jews: most prominent were the Kaifeng Jews, an ancient Jewish community in China, descended from merchants living in China from at least the era of the Tang dynasty. Today functionally extinct, yet descendants are beginning to explore and reclaim their heritage.
  

Originally posted by Riwka

Originally posted by Amuk
-

We have "Jews" in our family that came from Germany a few years before and right after WW2. My Grandmother was one. I am the son of her daughter so am I a Jew?

Yes Amuk,

you are a Jew.

So a Scots/Irish Catholic Hillbilly is REALY A Jew?

Amazing

This reminds me of an other story:

Mazal tov David Beckham, you're Jewish

Finally, a world-class Jewish soccer superstar: English national team and Real Madrid halfback learns his mother comes from Jewish family

maybe the mass chaos going on in Jerusalem could karma for stealing it from the Ethiopians that built the place? or maybe the chaos is because Jeruslaem is the door to Africa (GOD). seems to be spirits have caused mad chaos in those regions in lure to be closer to God or feel being that close (Jerusalem) may be an oppurtunity to capture God (Africa) when the door between the two places (Red Sea) swings open.
same reason 11 shines in our world. 2 magic numbers that can open a gate and mad chaos comes about when there is a chance to open that gate.

you people are being way to critical and over-analytical. He is saying he is Jewish by relation. He is not calling himself a practicing Jew, he is saying it's in his blood.

It's funny how hypocritical can be. I'm sure most of you love the non-extremist Muslims, yet by your own standards, they are not really Muslims.