Physics of "UFO" travel

The fundamental issue here is that we understand how gravity works on a large scale and at low energies, but when we try to reduce these effects down to a high energy or smaller scale, gravitational theory falls apart. Our search for a theory of quantum gravity involves finding out how gravity interacts at the level of protons, electrons, quarks, etc. This is very difficult to ascertain because it involves incredibly sophisticated mathematics and the ability to conceptualize multiple dimensions as well as to try to understand time. Time and gravity are inextricably entwined and, I believe, will ultimately be found to be expressions of a single universal law, as yet undeciphered by man.

Now, I know you said not to say, "They are just more advanced than we are." However, if the craft we are seeing are of extraterrestrial origin, and they are performing the maneuvers they apparently can perform, that they are far, far more technologically advanced than we is manifestly the case.

In order to define their technology, we have to approach many different problems, some of which are the following:

#1 - Is the craft able to generate its own gravitational field? How? (I believe this is the technology you are primarily inquiring about)

#2 - Can the craft use this gravitational field to fold spacetime, thus making interstellar, OR EVEN INTER-GALACTIC travel instantaneous? How?

#3 - Are there craft which can travel at or near the speed of light? What is the energy source for such propulsion? How is the craft able to maintain structural integrity at such speeds? What about G forces on any biological passengers? What happens to the traveler's timeline if he meets or exceeds the speed of light?

#4 - In case 1 & 2, we must also discover the method of navigation, since once you are folding spacetime itself, all means of traditional navigation go completely out the window.

Here are some possibilities:

The Bob Lazar theory:

You could use a stable element with a high atomic number, say, Bob Lazar's 'Element 115', and use tiny quantities of this element and a small, sophisticated particle collider to generate matter-antimatter reaction. The forces of this reaction are contained using advanced electromagnetic and gravitational field technology, thus harnessing the incomprehensibly large energy output as a virtually inexhaustible energy source. This same element 115 also has enough protons and electrons to generate its own tiny gravitaional field. Using technology beyond our comprehension (because we have not yet discovered a theory of quantum gravity) the extraterrestrials are able to magnify this gravitational field enough to encompass the entire craft and a small space just outside the craft. - The craft now exists in its own bubble of gravity. - All it has to do to travel is tilt the craft's center of gravity in the direction they desire to go, and they will essentially "roll downhill" to their destination. Keep in mind that there is no real "up" or "down" here - they are bending space-time in three dimensions and are no longer subject to earth gravity once their engine is turned on. To navigate, they create a dip in the gravity wave in the direction they want to go and then they float into it like a boat gliding down the side of a wave. By perpetually generating a wave on one side of the craft they are able to propel themselves wherever they want to go. Speeds are irrelevant to the structural integrity of the craft and there are no G forces to the passengers. They are in their own gravitational field - there would not even be a sensation of movement. Just instantaneous, or nearly instantaneous, relocation.

Continued in next post ...

[edit on 24-10-2008 by OuttaHere]

Continued ...

In a second configuration, the same ship could generate a much deeper wave, essentially punching a hole in space-time, and they would fall through (just like rolling downhill I mentioned before but a much steeper, deeper wave). They would arrive almost instantaneously at their destination, again, with no perception of movement or passage of time. It would essentially be a wormhole, but since the ship is in its own gravitational bubble there is no light speed travel involved. There isn't any movement, in the traditional sense, at all.

Here is a good illustration of this:

www.boblazar.com...

www.boblazar.com...

www.boblazar.com...

The question of navigation still exists, as well as the universally reported lack of wiring in recovered craft. It stands to reason that the craft are somehow navigated by the mind of the pilot, either by harnessing some technology which is able to remotely pick up and decode brainwave patterns, using some kind of innate extraterrestrial ability to project brainwaves (and the technology having been developed to receive these signals) or using bionic implant technology which is able to relay brain signals to the equipment.

The general public has no information about the biology of aliens, making this a matter of speculation; however, the vast majority of reports of interaction with ET's seem to suggest that they have some innate ability to project their brainwaves. As for the bionic implant technology, crude success has been achieved by Terran science. I will write about this elsewhere and add a link to this thread when I have done so, with sources, if I can find the book I read this in. It's on my shelves somewhere.

Another theory:

Nuclear fusion reactions generate a huge amount of power and can be used to propel craft at incredible speeds. See Youtube videos about David Adair for more information.

David Adair interview

This engine could account for great speeds but not how the craft withstands G-forces. My guess (and it's complete speculation) is that the craft utilizes a combination of technologies, using nuclear fusion (instead of element 115) for power and propulsion but also somehow generating its own gravitational field to offset G forces.

The David Adair engine also seems to be navigated using wireless connection to the mind of the pilot.

Traveling at such speeds between stars would not affect the traveler's experience of time, however, the time at his departure point and his destination point would not coincide with his own experience of time. For small distances or lower speeds this effect is insignificant, but if the craft were sufficiently fast, timeline discrepancies would become problematic. Using high speeds for interstellar travel, while technologically possible assuming a means can be found to counteract G forces, is not very practical. Therefore I conclude that this method of propulsion is likely only used by 'less advanced' interstellar travelers. (Not the engine itself, but the use of fusion for interstellar high speed propulsion.)

BTW some have theorized that the Aurora craft, developed by reverse engineering alien technology, uses exactly this principle. It is said that the craft has a nuclear fusion engine contained by the only known way to contain a fusion reaction (a powerful magnetic field), and simultaneously generates a small gravitational field which reduces its gravitational footprint by 2/3, so that it can hover and float using only a tiny amount of thrust - and can move at tremendous speeds. This is the triangle craft with the lights (thrusters), one at each corner, with a fourth, larger light in the middle (the glow of the engine). It is a U.S. military craft.

More...

[edit on 24-10-2008 by OuttaHere]

Interestingly, in reports of recovered ET craft, not only are wires missing to connect the navigation systems to some kind of steering wheel or guidance system, but in these craft, wires connecting various pieces of equipment to each other are also completely lacking. This suggests that the mind of the pilot not only serves as the navigational computer, but also somehow mediates power transfer between the engine and various parts. This is a mystery; perhaps even a greater mystery than the physics of the propulsion itself, which we can at least conceive of once we have figured out quantum gravity.

Originally posted by OuttaHere
Interestingly, in reports of recovered ET craft, not only are wires missing to connect the navigation systems to some kind of steering wheel or guidance system, but in these craft, wires connecting various pieces of equipment to each other are also completely lacking. This suggests that the mind of the pilot not only serves as the navigational computer, but also somehow mediates power transfer between the engine and various parts. This is a mystery; perhaps even a greater mystery than the physics of the propulsion itself, which we can at least conceive of once we have figured out quantum gravity.

considering what is stated in the above quoted passage, a look at this might prove interesting.

video.google.ca...

Funny, I was not even going to go there...

I know this was already done waaaaay back at the beginning of all this, by Otis Carr, whose patent & blueprints for a flying disc are available online, along with encoded instructions in the form of a manuscript.

Ralph Ring was there and got to travel in one of the craft and according to Ring, the navigation was mediated by their minds.

I wonder if Carr's human-made, terrestrial flying disc contained any wiring ...

I would love to know if anyone (besides the government, who stole his technology and shut his business down) has ever decoded his manuscript to find the plans.

Even if they did, though, where would anyone get the money to build one?

reply to post by OuttaHere


Its very interesting data but maybe a few assumptions. You state that craft have no wiring. However other sources indicate that they do, in fact they use fiber optic wiring which is wholly consistant with theory as firbe optics would still be able to convey the data even in a hyper state when nothing else could.

Again thats part of the suggestion as to how we evolved our own use of fibre otpic and how the advancements in fibre optics came about. Its a very credible theory in itself.

As for the theory of gravity, if we could discover and reproduce the graviton we would be almost home in defying some of the limits of physics we have, actually CERN might in theory provide some of those solutions and ant matter drives might be closer than we think. Again while we needed this man made machine, maybe other did not. It might be that in another solar system they had some sort of anomaly close at hand to study, gather from and learn far quicker. The puzzle of gravity might have been solved far quicker by another race in different conditions.

We are only stopped from true inter stellar travel by a few obstacles, thye theory is there but we cant prove it or create it. Thats not to say another race had those same problems, if they had resources, elements and a galaxy different to our own then maybe they had a whole different technological evolution based on the rules and properties they had on hand. Like I said, maybe we have some answers they dont because they lacked pieces to the puzzle they didnt have.


Also give them an extra 1000 years of evolution and maybe even our theory is primative compared to their day to day technology.

Originally posted by silver6ix
reply to post by OuttaHere

 

Its very interesting data but maybe a few assumptions. You state that craft have no wiring. However other sources indicate that they do, in fact they use fiber optic wiring...

You may be right. I said "the universally reported lack of wiring in recovered craft" when I should have said the "commonly reported lack of wiring".

Which craft were recovered with fiber optics? I am pretty new to all this and I have not yet seen that in any of the reading I have come across.

Maybe the laws of physics are something someone wrote up in a lab one day to put an end on the subject. Those laws are based on the minds of the people who created them. They didnt know everything about the universe. No one does but there could be beings that know more then us. So thats why I think ufo's break the laws of physics by our standards.

Nice to see a so complex subject. I just drop on this

GAINESVILLE, Fla. — Flying saucers may soon be more fact than mere science fiction.

University of Florida mechanical and aerospace engineering associate professor Subrata Roy has submitted a patent application for a circular, spinning aircraft design reminiscent of the spaceships seen in countless Hollywood films. Roy, however, calls his design a “wingless electromagnetic air vehicle,” or WEAV.

news.ufl.edu...


It may help us on this search

Originally posted by OuttaHere

Which craft were recovered with fiber optics? I am pretty new to all this and I have not yet seen that in any of the reading I have come across.

Well its suggested that the Roswell craft was fibre optic wired, also had integrated circuits, laser beam tech and particle beams and night vision technology. From that we reverse engineered and made break throughs in all of those fields. That was the claim be a retired Army Colonel and later several others suggested the same, at least the fibreoptics.

It's my opinion craft observed in "decent" cases are not FTL capable and should be considered seperate to whatever means these beings have of crossing the stars (assuming ET hypothesis).

I think the craft observed here may use "Field Propulsion" as a motive force. Somehow a combination of EM fields is generated and accelerates uniformly matter within it. This would allow high-g maneuvers without squishing the crew.

These fields change Brightness/colour when the velocity changes;

Lt.Graham Bethune part of debriefing 1951, after returning from Iceland and seeing a UFO enroute (The classic Bethune Gander encounter) (click reports for rest of crew testimony).

""Initially the color was yellow. Since then I’ve learned from the boys upstairs why we saw different colors as it was coming toward us. The colors were around the perimeter. And it turned from a yellow to an orange to almost a fiery red and then almost a purplish red. And they said that that had to do with the amount of energy being used or dissipated. It had to do with the power so to speak. And so when it slowed down, close to us, in a fraction of a second, it was back to the yellow range. And it was foggy around it to where it was like a plasma mist or something of this nature.""

Theres other examples (the nicap reports under bethune case show some more) out there but can't be bothered to dig them up sry!

I heard of a scientist who witnessed a UFO, that they could possibly use planets gravitational pull! Or the magnetic forces which planets give off.

There ships don't have to be that advanced, although in our technology it would take decades to figure out the technology they are using! But if we actually find one and study it then we would be able to try to recreate it.

But im guessing the government would just use it for wars and weapons Which could be another reason why they havn't made themselves public.

The last thing this world needs is a new type of super weapon. We would just abuse it, and use it for wrong doing!

Bless em for watching over us

[edit on 25-10-2008 by Unubuh]

A point of order. There maybe (probably are) more than one kind of alien. This leads me to suggest that there may be more than one method of locomotion.
A possible method would be the time honoured "Warp" effect, which in theory would work by contracting space time in front of a vessel , and expanding it behind, there by pushing the vehicle , in a stable environment, in a bubble so to speak, of extremely quick time and space, without breaking the laws of physics, and apparantly the boffins have confirmed that this is infact physicaly possible.
Another method I was thinking about is that maybe some UFO move at speeds impossible by the laws of physics , because they have built thier vehicles out of materials which IGNORE physics by thier nature.
And whos to say that all alien species move in vehicles anyway . How about mobile portal emmiters? By acclerating some particles , its possible to make them appear at another location , without actualy hitting any point in between... slipping out of this reality for femtoseconds at a time , then coming back some place else. Imagine what an advanced technology could do with that !
And then theres this wild idea that just appeared in my head out of no where.... How would it be , if some aliens had figured how to fold space and time , like origami , so that they could get from point a) to point b) by swooping over the gap between the edges of the folds. Just a thought .

Originally posted by silver6ix
reply to post by OuttaHere

 

Its very interesting data but maybe a few assumptions. You state that craft have no wiring. However other sources indicate that they do, in fact they use fiber optic wiring which is wholly consistant with theory as firbe optics would still be able to convey the data even in a hyper state when nothing else could.

Again thats part of the suggestion as to how we evolved our own use of fibre otpic and how the advancements in fibre optics came about. Its a very credible theory in itself.

As for the theory of gravity, if we could discover and reproduce the graviton we would be almost home in defying some of the limits of physics we have, actually CERN might in theory provide some of those solutions and ant matter drives might be closer than we think. Again while we needed this man made machine, maybe other did not. It might be that in another solar system they had some sort of anomaly close at hand to study, gather from and learn far quicker. The puzzle of gravity might have been solved far quicker by another race in different conditions.

What is lacking is an engineered opening to modifying the source terms of general relativity. Right now, we know the classical source terms (mass + energy), but the coupling constant is very very small.

We have seen, on Earth in reputable scientific labs, NO hint of any phenomenon which could even remotely seem to make this possible.

Let's consider an analogy: nuclear energy. By the early 1900's, scientists knew that there had to be some substantial energy contained in nuclei of atoms, which were held together by some unknown forces. But they had absolutely no idea how to get it out---nuclei seemed to simply do their own thing, mostly nothing, with no human intervention possible.

Only until the discovery of nuclear fission of uranium, a very unusual phenomenon in a particular kind of nucleus, was there a real opportunity.

That is what we would need. So far, nothing---not a hint on Earth of anything engineerable or even any idea where we'd look. Even in the 1900's the issue of radioactivity was a big deal.

IF "dark matter" or "dark energy" has some physics which is engineerable, maybe that's where it would be but so far there is nowhere specific to look.

BTW, there is some delusion that "electromagnetic fields" by themselves can be responsible for hypothetical UFO gravity-bending propulsion. Not EM fields as we understand them. There are very very strong EM fields near MRI machines, radio transmitters, CERN magnets, supercapacitor, blah blah blah----and not the slightest hint of anomalous gravitational interaction beyond the utterly tiny term in Einsteinian general relativity.

If UFOs are physical objects from ETs which obey laws of physics, and they can manipulate gravity, I supsect the E&M effects, are a consequence and not directly a cause. What really matters would be the "stuff" the UFO is made out of and where the power comes from.

And finally, there are thermodynamical issues. Where does the "waste heat" go? What is the power source? What is the fuel?

i like the gravity wave theories that have to do with as yet undiscovered heavy elements. Supposedly there could be heavy elements out there that have a gravity wave that you could amplify (just like any other wave).

I personally support the Bob Lazar theory- space bending by gravity manipulation. I wouldn't describe it as surfing though, more something like the effect, when you pinch your mom's stockings and let it go. You get from one point in the universe to another in no time. This is exactly how I imagine the space / gravity manipulation.

This is a link concerning the speed at which gravity propagates its self, its a long read, but I can asure you, its way faster than the speed of light.

Speed of Gravity

To return to the dilema of control and navigation of the crafts. As I read through the Bob Lazar materials, he mentiones the test of the "Sports Model" as soon as he was made aware of the concept of his work at Area 51. The test involved basic manouvers above the airfield. My point is the scientists had to have the knowledge of the inner workings and potential of the craft, had trained pilots and such (or was it remotely controled?). So how was it controlled than?, had they figured out the human-mind interface back than already? Are we naturaly compatible or do you have to have a certain gene (like in Stargate Atlantis)?

Also my opinion about the different evolutionary background of the space-faring alien species. As described in the Bob Lazar materials (with reference to an alien abduction and the information channeled by the aliens to the victims) - the tall and small grays come from different planets both being in a binary star system (Zeta Reticuli).

Imagine the mental and evolutionary preasure on both their civilizations when they were able to:
- see each other with the invention of the telescope
- no theories about being the centre of the universe, no self-centered mythologies
- communicate with the invention of the radio
- mutually work on the development of interplanetary spacecraft
- first meeting, first interplanetary politics, diplomatics, something we simply cannot comprehend now

Imagine the great leap forward if you knew you have a nearby neighbour and you simply have to meet him, welcome him. Its an instinctive urge.

Maybe something like this happened with Earth and Mars thousands of years ago. They also could travel between the planets. And both the civilizations vanished (maybe destroyed by their own advanced developement),

Well this is my piece of the puzzle.

reply to post by mbkennel


Antimatter drives would require only tiny amounts of fuel to traverse large distances, theoretically they would be almost without fuel if they were able to produce AM efficiently.

As for evidence, well no thats true which I believe is the function of CERN to identify these particles.


In short we arent far from having the theoretical possibility and the modification from 50% to a higher % efficiency would come later, as with all technology you first need a working model before you can enhance.
In theory you only need 10 milligrams of AM to reach Mars for example....the issue is that we currently cant produce that. However, its not a great amount and when we can produce it or gather it, fuel wont be an issue.

The important part here is the on EARTH (or near Earth) we have no evidence of the particles, however that doesnt mean someone else doesnt have them right on their doorstep. If we were closer to some form of anomoloy or star which produced AM we might well have the answer by now.

Even as we speak NASA is still working on antimatter drives and has been for some time. The initial drives were antiproton based and the new design will be positron based.

Its very theoretical BUT we arent that far from producing a working model ourselves, its just the cost which is holding that back.

My personal feeling is that AM drives would only be short range drives, a quick hop to Mars and back. The real solution would more likely be the folding of space time and wormholes.


[edit on 26-10-2008 by silver6ix]

Have you considered the fact that UFOs may be able to warp space-time
by warp the space around it by such methodology as Electrogravitics?
Much less, early in 2004 I came across a design using that technologhy,
but it was modified to allow for potent light speed travel potential. It is
my hope to prove that the technology works!