Physics of "UFO" travel

This thread is directed at the believers of "UFOs", the ones that believe "UFO's" are travelling great distances to our planet or others.

Its a simple question, but the math behind it could go on forever:

How can UFO's defy our laws of physics?

Before you go on saying things such as "they are far more advanced than us", "we could not even begin to understand their technology" etc lets look at the fundamentals.


We basically know that they are not coming from the moon, mars etc. We know by our standards it would take us considerable time to even travel to a planet like mars.

So how exactlly do "aliens" do it.

This is what I want believers to show me

How "UFO's" can travel these distances without breaking our laws of physics.

Lets look at a few possible outcomes they could use.

1. Black holes, worm holes, white holes
   
2. Travel at high rate of speed
   
3. Combination of methods 1 and 2.
   

Im sure there are more, but I cannot think of many now.

Lets assume they use wormholes etc for our first method. If this is true, we do not know exactlly how objects would react in them, or if they would work at all. Some believe that they are in an equillibrium and that objects entering them would cause the "portals" to self destruct.

Even if they were able to travel using them, let me ask you this, Where is the closest black hole?

Even if they use them, its not like they are a few miles from earth. No they would still have to travel CONSIDERABLE distances just to get to our planet.

So where is the nearest black hole anyways?

M15 approx. 35,000 light years away. The most popular one is Cygnus X-1 which is an eclipsing binary star system approx. 10,000 light years away - the closest I know of.

Thats 5,865,696,000,000 miles per light year by the way.

www.newton.dep.anl.gov...

The reason why I use black holes and not white holes is because I do not know where the nearest white hole is.

So do they still travel 10,000 light years to get to us?

Think about that.

Now lets move on, lets say they just fly really fast. Something we could do right? Well yes to an extent.

What about travel at the speed of light?

In order to make a spaceship go faster we have to add energy to it. As we approach the speed of light, each progressive step up in velocity takes an more and more energy for less and less addition to the speed. No matter how much energy you give to the spaceship, it still will travel at a speed less than the speed of light. Physicists routinely accelerate particles -- electrons or protons and other things -- up to very very high energies, and their speeds get very close to the speed of light. Beams of electrons, for example, have been accelerated to 99.99999999879% of the speed of light so far in the laboratory and it takes lots of energy to do that. Light travels at the speed of light, though. Waves of gravitational radiation also travel at the speed of light. Stuff that's made out of matter, like you and me, cannot go that fast.

Source

So right there, we have a problem. Do "UFO's" really travel at said speeds? Do you really believe its possible to travel this far, this fast etc?

No its not because last time I checked, even "aliens" have mass

That is unless they are made of photon particles or some silly matter. Lets not even go there.

To be continued.

oooh i wanna say something

i have a few ideas about this but i dunno really

here goes

1) ok deep in outer space ; an object"our spaceship" being sufficiently far enough away from stars/planets/etc
will be in "near" equilibrium i believe

so lets turn on our thrusters for 1 second

lets say this force accelerates us to 100 mph
now; we are traveling 100 mph
due to "near" equilibrium; our spaceship will have its thrusters OFF and still be hurling thru space at 100mph *correct?*

*this maintained speed without thrusters is similar to the way a space probe like voyager or pioneer is; hurling thru space at X speed without any energy thrust of its own*

ok now; since we are in 99% equilibrium; and going 100mph
we decide

lets turn on the thrust agian; for 1 second

i believe due to equilibrium; we Should be going 200mph now
*or something like this; i dont know the equation to use*

ok now we are hurling thru space at 200mph

so we decide; hey lets hit the thrust agian for 1second
so now we should be going 300 mph
due to Equilibrium; we have no forces acting on us so we constantly hurl thru space at 300mph as if NOTHING was moving at all (equilibrium)

so we turn on the thrusters agian; for 1 second
400 mph

agian
500mph

agian and agian and agian and agian
until we reach whatever speed is nessasary

now due to "99% equilibrium" we will lose a bit of this speed ; but only what 1%?

so after we pass light speed; due to equilibrium; our space ship wont fall apart or anything ; because of equilibrium

now to stop; u need to fire forward thrusters a bunch to slow it down

I dont Know if this would work or not; but i am just guessing based on what i learned in physics class about "equilibrium"

how does this pan out in real life? i have no clue
i could be DEAD WRONG
but i also could be totally Right

so which is it? i dont know but id LOVE to perform and expierment or two , to test this theory

a test would vindicate or destroy my theory

thats all i can think of off the top my head

but u post a good thread i wanna be in on it 2

You will find this handy.

helios.gsfc.nasa.gov...

Highlights:

General Physics:
Speed of Light

Speed of Light
Effect of Mass on Speed of Light?
Speed of Light Slowed?
Speed of Light Constant
Rotation and the Speed of Light
Why Not Faster Than the Speed of Light?
Cerenkov Light
Time Near the Speed of Light

This is a good source as well:

www2.slac.stanford.edu...

Help for equations:

hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...



I can understand where you are going muzzleflash. I believe what would happen is that you would feel the force of acceleration, but you would not have any sense of direction or movement at all.

Im not sure how the situation would effect travel.

Again I ask anyone to show me how "UFO's" can travel these distances and at these speeds.

thanks for all the links

we cant "show you" how UFOs go that fast tho; if we could; we would be out flying around in space right now lol

we can "theorize to you" tho lol

well if anyone can "show" him the UFO ; pls "show it" to me too because i wanna fly in a UFO asap lol

hey and my theory about "time slows as u approach the speed of light"

my theory is that it is Relative
i think time only "appears " to slow down ; but in reality time doesnt slow down --if that makes sense *yes i believe im going agianst accepted theory but hey we arent perfect*

btw im NOT a physicist by any means; ive only taken 2 years of it in school
and i barely passed...
so im definatly not the one to design your UFO lol

but wait didnt Einstien have trouble with math equations too? i think he had to tell his theorys to actual mathematicians and get them to write it out for him lol
i may be wrong tho

im gonna go read your links now

Originally posted by Dulcimer
This thread is directed at the believers of "UFOs", the ones that believe "UFO's" are travelling great distances to our planet or others.

Its a simple question, but the math behind it could go on forever:

How can UFO's defy our laws of physics?

Before you go on saying things such as "they are far more advanced than us", "we could not even begin to understand their technology" etc lets look at the fundamentals.


We basically know that they are not coming from the moon, mars etc. We know by our standards it would take us considerable time to even travel to a planet like mars.

So how exactlly do "aliens" do it.

This is what I want believers to show me

How "UFO's" can travel these distances without breaking our laws of physics.

Lets look at a few possible outcomes they could use.

1. Black holes, worm holes, white holes
   
2. Travel at high rate of speed
   
3. Combination of methods 1 and 2.
   

Im sure there are more, but I cannot think of many now.
...

So essentially you want us to speculate on theoretical propulsion devices, extraterrestrial existence and the dynamics of other theoretical natural phenomena happening in space ie black holes and discuss possible outcomes on theoretical working models of these.

So you are after short sci fi story then?

I can speculate that if we go down the serious path of "Intergalactic Space ships" etc, anything sub FTL will not be acceptable. Unless we are happy exploring just our neighbouring planets and moons.

I'll come up with something Dulcimer.

[edit on 27-7-2005 by one_small_step]

the site said u need infinite energy to go the speed of light?

so it is POSSIBLE?????
LOL

so all we gotta do is figure out how to get infinite energy???

well; it was mentioning cosmic rays

is there infinite cosmic radiation? does it constantly permeate everything around us?

if so; perhaps there is a way to "tap into" this cosmic radiation that is virtually everywhere in universe

maybe thats how??

i dont know really just guessing
btw those sites have some really good Q's and A's
it takes some time to absorb it but its possible

one_small_step I just want to see what people have to say about how "UFO's" can travel such distances and such speeds without breaking our laws of physics.

Also you should edit your post and cut down the excessive quote

Originally posted by Dulcimer
one_small_step I just want to see what people have to say about how "UFO's" can travel such distances and such speeds without breaking our laws of physics.

Also you should edit your post and cut down the excessive quote

Yeh sorry bout that!
Have you got a hidden agenda going on here

Laws - are meant to be broken,...

Yeh the Ol' infinite energy supply dilema,

More resources for those interested:

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...


The first link includes one interesting piece titled "Faster-than-light" observations and experiments

Info on black holes and the like:

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

The first link includes some information on mathematical theory with black holes.

White holes:

en.wikipedia.org...

Not much info there though.

but what about cosmic radiation?

E=mc^2 says everythings energy
and law of conservation says it cant "disappear"

so lets say we use the fuel ' cant the energy be perpetually recycled?
since the energy doesnt disappear; just changes forms
recycling it seems possible no?

Here is some better info on white holes:

curious.astro.cornell.edu...

Also while reading this I forgot to bring up cosmic strings. They are much like black holes, but we know even less about them. Pretty interesting stuff.

They are also used in time travel theory. Get out the tinfoil hats and latch on to some cosmic strings.

Plenty of info on them here:

www.iafe.uba.ar...
en.wikipedia.org...

thanks for the extra links to wikipedia /checkin em out now

i was reading the Speed of Light link at the top
and a thought popped up

we know how fast light can go
but do we know how Slow it can go?

like what if; light travels at more than one speed at once?

well...no maybe not
my flashlight turns off when i hit the button

so maybe light only goes one speed after all?
the high and low speeds must be the same ?

i think my brains melting out my ears now
dulcimer ur killin me

Originally posted by muzzleflash
but what about cosmic radiation?

E=mc^2 says everythings energy
and law of conservation says it cant "disappear"

so lets say we use the fuel ' cant the energy be perpetually recycled?
since the energy doesnt disappear; just changes forms
recycling it seems possible no?

E=mc^2 is the very idea that keeps us from going the speed of light.

Heres some info on cosmic radiation.

en.wikipedia.org...


This should aid in the energy questions:

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

Some believe they are not from our plane of existence, but from a different universe/dimension in the multiverse. That would mean they haven't got to travel great physical distances to get here. Well, this surely sounds way out there, to say the least, but it could perhaps explain the weird behaviour of some objects/entities that's been observed.

I will keep this short because I know it is not what you are looking for, but it is an answer.

Our so-called Laws are not absolutes they are simply what we know today.

How do UFOs do what they do? I have no idea, but since they somehow manage it then somewhere along the line we have got something wrong and sooner or later we will figure out what. And since the history of Science says that we will eventually discard much of what we know today in favor of new ideas I feel pretty comfy with this answer.


A.T
(-)

i read alot of the links and everyones posts very closely

since my brain melted around my 3rd post ive decided a semi-solution

i will try to regain contact with Dr Michio Kaku

and i will get his opinions
hopefully his old email address works

it worked back in 2001; it was
[email protected]

hes a very brilliant fellow and could possibly clue me in on WTF is going on here lol

Let's take an example from Star Trek.

The way they have explained their "overlight" drive, the warp drive is relatively easy to grasp. I'll keep it simple:

The engines create a warp field around the ship which changes the ships behaviour in comparison to the rest of the universe, then creates a wave in the space-time continuum behind the ship and compresses the space in front of it. So the ship is surfing down a wave of space-time while within that "warp field" the people on board do not get affacted by the distortions. Gravity compensators on board meanwhile make sure people don't end up as a mass of borken bones at the back end of the ship while a deflector field in the ships path clear all little space dust and stuff away which would be fatal to collide with at such speeds.

This all sounds very neat and simple, even though it isn't, but theoretically this sort of "propulsion" has been deemed possible and with more knowledge and different materials at our disposal I believe it's possible to build.

And only because we don't know - yet - how to achieve something like that or utilize a wormhole or even stabilize such a singularity, doesn't mean it couldn't be done at all.

Ill present my theory on how I believe, or how I see they could travel at any rate .

I did this awhile back when I talked about the "spiriton" particle that I had a theory about.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Hehe I got some backlash over it, but its a good idea in my mind. Ill reintroduce the idea, using alien life in the place of the soul ( you will understand if you view the original thread)

Gauge forces and matter are confined to our three dimensional world that we live in. Of course there is also time and the possibility of extra spatial dimensions with string theory.

Now something eludes this principle. The graviton. Gravity propagates freely in all dimensions.

Now lets take our universe and take an estimated look at it.

The three dimensional world (again time and the possibility of more, but I will use three to keep it simple) that we live in is confined to many laws of physics.

Now think of "aliens" or a higher source, as being like that of the graviton. The "aliens" (I will use the term aliens from now on) are capable of control over all dimensions.

The workings of aliens do not have to follow the rules of our dimensions.

Alot of people tend to believe in ufos, or aliens etc. But according to their mass, they cannot travel at the speed of light etc in our three dimensional universe.

The only way they could travel faster than the speed of light, etc would be in a way that contains characteristics of a particle like the graviton, a particle that propagates in all dimensions.

Basically "aliens" could be made up of particles similar to that of the supposed graviton, allowing them to "escape" our laws of physics and have control over multiple dimensions.

It makes more sense in the original thread, but I guess it could be adapted to ufos and aliens.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just a thought.

Edit: typing



[edit on 27-7-2005 by Dulcimer]

after reading your other thread i have to ; just have to post my theory about it LOL

ok now
E=mc^2

so basically *without all the hoopla*
Energy = Matter

well; this implies *i think* that Literally Everything is Energy
so

Energy = Everything

well; if a "soul" exists; it would have to be -----> Energy
since "Energy" can describe virtually Everything

so heres my equation based on my admittedly limited understanding

Energy = Matter = Everything = Soul = Universe = God

since everythings the same thing u can say it equals anything else; in this view *i dunno if im nuts or what?*

so that means my actual "existance" is the Soul itself, essentially

So
i found some back up for my theory...in a sense

Virtually all religions *main ones* contend that
God = Everything
or God = All or All = One or One = All

its in Genesis in the Bible, God = All

So; it seems we have a very simple answer
Everything = Everything

Soul = Matter = God = Energy =Everything = All = Whole Universe

ok ok ill stop now
u see where im going tho?

so basically your "spiriton" fits well into this "theory of everything " lmao
being Spirton = Everything = God = Matter = Energy = etc


[edit on 27-7-2005 by muzzleflash]

this subject is by far the hardest thing to think about

i could hook up with every single victorias secret model in real life reality before we could figure this stuff out LOL

from now on Duclimer im going to call you Duclimer the Brain Melter!
since u melted my brain tonite u rascal u