And the truth shall set you free! (The End)

Huge copy/paste of copyrighted material cut down to size with link added.

Let's get ready to RUMBLE!!!!!

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Sabat, you'd better learn another way to respond than calling people trolls. You got away with it with me once, and I suppose you think that made it ok. One more time, fellow. GOT IT? By the way, while I'm on it, declaring people ignorant, or trolls, or anything else, without counter-stating with facts proves nothing.

If it seems like someone is just baiting, or posting certain things to anger people, without adding to the discussion, is that not the definition of a troll? I just call it like I see it...

We use the same tactics that ANYONE would who is trying to defend themselves or an organization which they are a member of. You would do the same thing if I were here accusing you of being a child rapist

Good Sabat you keep saying that! C’mon repeat it 3 times; GOOD!

It's not irrelevant. These other organizations are EXACTLY like Freemasonry. Why don't you speak out against them? If you say Freemasonry is a "perverted blood cult" then surely you must say that the Odd Fellows or Elks are also! But I know why you don't: because there have never been rumors or theories created about those fraternities, therefore no conspiracy theorist ever wrote something for you to believe without actually verifying it yourself and then repeat here on ATS.

I have heard a lot of rumours about them! BUT THAT IS FOR ANOTHER THREAD! Get it Sabat? This thread is about mystery schools of ancient Sumer and their connection to Free Masonry! The reason I am reluctant to write about the Elks and the Moose is that, they don’t have these prominent figures of great corruption TO MY KNOWLEDGE! and they don’t have all these writings (i.e. Books and text’s) about themselves, and THEY ARENT ON ATS BULLYING NEW MEMBERS! AND GANGBANGING PEOPLE WITH OTHER OPPINIONS!

And do you not think that you are simply mason-baiting in this thread? You started a thread which included about 20 different topics, with the hopes that people would discuss every single one? You know damn well that this tread, like your previous ones, were only meant to start arguments and to make Freemasons on this forum mad. YOU KNOW THIS, so why pretend otherwise? By playing dumb, you only show yourself to be an immature teenager. Grow up for once.

I started a thread with A,B,C,D,E,F,G! i.e. Seven chapters or topics and they weren’t DIFFERENT! ‘lol’ Sabat you are great! Keep it coming mate!

I don’t want to make free masons mad, I want to discuss my knowledge and share it, on a civil level! You are the one making personal attacks! Not me! I’m attacking an organization not the individual members! GET IT! Or do I have to spell it out for you?

Those words mean completely different things. Freemasonry is a "symbol system", or "A system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols". That is the heart of Freemasonry, not politics, satanism and whatever else you dorks accuse us of.

Dork? Nice one, that’s new! YES free masonry is a symbol system! Thank you for adding to this thread!

I don’t think that you are Satanists, perhaps Luciferian i.e. the morning lord and all that!

Helmut, what part of "copyright" do you not understand? You have been here long enough to know better than copy/pasting articles and not giving the link. You know enough to copy a paragraph and post the link

Yes off course Thomas MYBAD! And thank you for doing it for me!

If it seems like someone is just baiting, or posting certain things to anger people, without adding to the discussion, is that not the definition of a troll? I just call it like I see it...

Yes keep it comming more personal attacks! ATTACK THE PERSON NOT THE CONTENT! Good work! Sebatwerk you make my day!

Nothing really to add, was just answering questions etc.

I MUST STRESS TO ALL THAT YOU READ THE ORIGINAL POST, INSTEAD OF ALL THE BICKERING AND NOISE MADE BY THE MASONS ON THIS SITE!

There are three ways to lie: by deliberate mis-statement; by leaving out relevant facts; by adding irrelevant facts. Free Masons use all three

NeonHelmet

[edit on 27-7-2005 by NeonHelmet]

Compliments of www.thefreedictionary.com...

Definition of symbol:

1. Something that represents something else by association, resemblance, or convention, especially a material object used to represent something invisible. See Synonyms at "sign".

2. A printed or written sign used to represent an operation, element, quantity, quality, or relation, as in mathematics or music.

3. Psychology: An object or image that an individual unconsciously uses to represent repressed thoughts, feelings, or impulses: a phallic symbol.

[Middle English "symbole", creed, from Old French, from Latin "symbolum", token, mark, from Greek "sumbolon", token for identification (by comparison with a counterpart) : "sun-", syn- + "ballein", to throw; see gwel- in Indo-European roots.]


Definition of ritual:

1. a. The prescribed order of a religious ceremony.
b. The body of ceremonies or rites used in a place of worship.

2. a. The prescribed form of conducting a formal secular ceremony: the ritual of an inauguration.
b. The body of ceremonies used by a fraternal organization.

3. A book of rites or ceremonial forms.

4. rituals
a. A ceremonial act or a series of such acts.
b. The performance of such acts.

5. a. A detailed method of procedure faithfully or regularly followed: My household chores have become a morning ritual.
b. A state or condition characterized by the presence of established procedure or routine: "Prison was a ritual reenacted daily, year in, year out. Prisoners came and went; generations came and went; and yet the ritual endured..." --William H. Hallahan.

[From Latin "r tu lis", of rites, from "r tus", rite; see "rite".]


With that said:

Symbols and ritual are absolutely fundamental to culture and civilization in general. The Freemasons, while they obviously make extensive (and efficient) use of these concepts, are no different than any other group in the history of humanity.

Indeed, all forms of communication (a.k.a. the transmission of information, including the process of learning or the "gathering of knowledge") are composed of a given structure that requires that symbols be expressed a certain order in an effort to correctly convey the intended meaning from one party to another.

Words (or visual graphics, for that matter) are not the thing they represent, they are only a symbol of the thing itself, an IMAGE, whether that thing is an object or a concept. When we communicate, we are using symbols (such as words which are simply glyphs or sounds arranged in a mutually-agreed-upon order) to convey information to one another. This is the basic principle of language, without which there would be no exchange of information between humans, which is necessary for interaction to occur at all. This covers the spoken, written and non-verbal communication (a.k.a. body language or gestures). Without interaction, there could be no association at all, no groups, no culture, no civilization. In short, basically everything that is not complete isolation, which is destructive to the human psyche and will eventually cause insanity. Interaction is a requirement to human survival. This has been adequately demonstrated in scientific studies dealing with solitary confinement and its effects on the individual experiencing it. Not a pretty picture.

Communication is difficult when the order of the symbols is not mutually agreed upon, which creates the language barrier. Some research into language and semantics and how it relates to human cognition would be helpful to you if you are overly concerned about the Masonic "obsession" (as you put it) with symbols and ritualistic structure.

They don't operate any differently than the rest of us do. Perhaps they are just more aware of the nuts and bolts.

A useful site for those interested in symbolism and "the roots" of the spoken/written word.

www.symbols.com...



[edit on 27-7-2005 by Stegosaur]

You are correct in most of what you write! I would like to stress though! That there are connections in these symbols and they have been used by the same “groups”!

I have done extensive research! And it has shown me that it is the same symbols being used by the same "people" (i.e. power groups), over and over during the last 6000 years at least! Before that it gets very hard to prove anything! There are also symbolisms in the stories being told! Please read my first post mate, and again thank you for adding to this thread!

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
That there are connections in these symbols and they have been used by the same “groups”!

So what you are saying is that all of these symbols can be found in all the mystery schools throughout all cultures. Hmmm. While it may be a common thread, it certainly does not prove a conspiracy. It does however, support Jung's theory of the Collective Unconscious, which you may want to look into. Suggested site:

www.lcc.ctc.edu...

I have done extensive research! And it has shown me that it is the same symbols being used by the same "people" (i.e. power groups), over and over during the last 6000 years at least! Before that it gets very hard to prove anything! There are also symbolisms in the stories being told! Please read my first post mate, and again thank you for adding to this thread!

You're welcome. Rest assured, though, that I am quite familiar with your work (spanning the last 12 months or so) and have read a large portion of it, so I do feel qualified to comment on your theory.

While you have definitely immersed yourself in mythological traditions and the various characters associated with them, as well as cross-referencing historical accounts of dynasties and lineages, I do think there is a fair amount of speculation in the position that all this indicates a conspiracy by the "upper echelons of power".

(Someone will always be in power at any given time. It is a fact. You use what works. That's simply good business sense, my friend.)

I believe you have, however, adequately demonstrated that most faith systems, regardless of their geographic origin or their place in the timeline of history, all share common traits and legends, perhaps just with different names. (Here we have the result of the language barrier.) This is something these warring factions of fundamentalism would do well to notice themselves. Perhaps it would alleviate some of the finger-pointing and "Holier-than-Thou" posturing that I see every day.

I think if you pursued this area of research to a deeper level, you may see how it is simply an indication of how humanity really works, rather than an indication of any Masonic power conspiracy. But that's just my opinion.

Well if you have followed my “work”, (a little subliminal commendation) then you is off course qualified to comment and even if you hadn’t, I would still take you seriously!

About the upper echelons of power, I CANT PROVE IT! And if they exist? THEY KNOW IT!
I am not claiming anything about, reptilian aliens or ancient “uber” humans who live 5000 years or something! I do believe that it is the same 13 families that are connected in the CONTROL & MANIPULATION of the entire human race!
At least what I’m trying to say is that it is the same agenda and the same symbols and stories! If they aren’t in together, then why work together in a scheme they won’t even see the end off?
There have to be some thought of connection I haven’t seen and can’t see!

And yes some one will always be in power, but it is the same ones in power! I.e. Families pharaohs and kings and president all claim the same heritage! That is what I am trying to say and they use secret societies as the free masons to do this!

Perhaps it would alleviate some of the finger-pointing and "Holier-than-Thou" posturing that I see every day.

please elaborate, explain I don’t know what you mean?

I think if you pursued this area of research to a deeper level, you may see how it is simply an indication of how humanity really works, rather than an indication of any Masonic power conspiracy. But that's just my opinion.

Thank you for you constructive thoughts and opinions! But I can’t agree, you are fair and you don’t condemn! But that is not the point either! We are not here to agree with each other, but to listen to each others opinions! For that I commend you!

[edit on 27-7-2005 by NeonHelmet]

Originally posted by NeonHelmet
Good Sabat you keep saying that! C’mon repeat it 3 times; GOOD!

You are one immature dude. Grow up.

The reason I am reluctant to write about the Elks and the Moose is that, they don’t have these prominent figures of great corruption TO MY KNOWLEDGE! and they don’t have all these writings (i.e. Books and text’s) about themselves, and THEY ARENT ON ATS BULLYING NEW MEMBERS! AND GANGBANGING PEOPLE WITH OTHER OPPINIONS!

If people were attacking them the way they attack Freemasons, I can GUARANTEE you that they would do the same damn thing. Bully users? So whenever a user SLANDERS us or LIES about us, they should just get away with it? We don't have a right to defend ourselves and our society?

Sabat you are great! Keep it coming mate!

And you're a little kid.

I don’t want to make free masons mad, I want to discuss my knowledge and share it, on a civil level! You are the one making personal attacks! Not me!

So the above quote of yours isn't a personal attack? What about the one before that? What about ALL of the saracastic remarks you have made in your past several posts? THOSE aren't personal attacks? Get a clue...

I’m attacking an organization not the individual members! GET IT! Or do I have to spell it out for you?

Oh please, you are attacking an organization BASED on the SUPPOSED behavior of its members! You are attacking an organization COMPRISED of individuals, therefore you are attacking its members. Don't play word games with me, kid, you're not at that level.

Dork? Nice one, that’s new! YES free masonry is a symbol system! Thank you for adding to this thread!

Don't thank me, I'm adding to this thread at your expense.

I don’t think that you are Satanists, perhaps Luciferian i.e. the morning lord and all that!

Clever... :shk:

If it seems like someone is just baiting, or posting certain things to anger people, without adding to the discussion, is that not the definition of a troll? I just call it like I see it...

Yes keep it comming more personal attacks! ATTACK THE PERSON NOT THE CONTENT! Good work! Sebatwerk you make my day!

How is that a personal attack? I simply said that if someone is posting like a troll, I will say so. You're so wrapped up in your reply that you no longer bother to read what you're replying to. And, as usual, you made yet another sarcastic remark that makes you seem even more immature, if that's possible.

I MUST STRESS TO ALL THAT YOU READ THE ORIGINAL POST, INSTEAD OF ALL THE BICKERING AND NOISE MADE BY THE MASONS ON THIS SITE!

bickering and noise made by masons? Yeah sure. You need to take a good look in the mirror, pal. You notice how I'm the only mason who takes the time to reply to your immaturity? The rest of these guys just ignore you, because they are familiar with your type. They know you're not worth it.

To All,

We can do better guys/gals........lets not resort to personal insults and flaming in this thread. I know it’s possible to have a mature conversation without baiting or poking the other guy with a sharp stick.

You are one immature dude. Grow up.

Thank you!

If people were attacking them the way they attack Freemasons, I can GUARANTEE you that they would do the same damn thing. Bully users? So whenever a user SLANDERS us or LIES about us, they should just get away with it? We don't have a right to defend ourselves and our society?

Yes please do so, defend away!

And you're a little kid.

Thank you!

So the above quote of yours isn't a personal attack? What about the one before that? What about ALL of the saracastic remarks you have made in your past several posts? THOSE aren't personal attacks? Get a clue...

Perhaps I’m being sarcastic some times true! But I don’t think that it counts as personal attacks, but again you say potato I say potata!

Oh please, you are attacking an organization BASED on the SUPPOSED behavior of its members! You are attacking an organization COMPRISED of individuals, therefore you are attacking its members. Don't play word games with me, kid, you're not at that level.

I am talking about the NON EXISTANT ILLUMINISED FREE MASONRY! And again thank you for adding to this thread!

Don't thank me, I'm adding to this thread at your expense.

Thank you!

Clever...

Erhmm is that sarcasm?

How is that a personal attack? I simply said that if someone is posting like a troll, I will say so. You're so wrapped up in your reply that you no longer bother to read what you're replying to. And, as usual, you made yet another sarcastic remark that makes you seem even more immature, if that's possible.

Oh so the troll in question isn’t me! Okie then MYBAD!

bickering and noise made by masons? Yeah sure. You need to take a good look in the mirror, pal. You notice how I'm the only mason who takes the time to reply to your immaturity? The rest of these guys just ignore you, because they are familiar with your type. They know you're not worth it.

Yes IGNORANCE DENIED, for sure! Ignore me I say! I’m not worth it!

To All,

We can do better guys/gals........lets not resort to personal insults and flaming in this thread. I know it’s possible to have a mature conversation without baiting or poking the other guy with a sharp stick.

Yes you are correct! I am sorry for the flaming part and personal insults I have made!

I’m sorry Sebatwerk, friends?

[edit on 27-7-2005 by NeonHelmet]

Originally posted by kinglizard
To All,

We can do better guys/gals........lets not resort to personal insults and flaming in this thread. I know it’s possible to have a mature conversation without baiting or poking the other guy with a sharp stick.

It is harder to do this when the first post on the thread is mason baiting.

What is there to discuss? Some believe that masons and OTO and all secret societies are a huge conspiracy involving child molestation, murder, and satanic rituals.

Others believe that masons are nothing but what they say they are, a charitable fraternity.

There is no common ground between these positions.

Anyone can take a website, copy and paste it and call it research.

Heres my link for the true mason conspiracy.

www.bucklesunlimited.com...


As you can see, it's terrifying.

I don't understand the point of the opening post. You seem to be saying that christianity is a copy of pagan myths in one way or another, and that the mason's know this, and that their system of rites is a mystery religion. But these are the old arguments. Christianity isn't a simple copy of paganistic myths, and the resemblances between the christ passion and other dying-hero myths is often over stated. Where it is similar, its in very basic and resonating ideas. But that doesn't mean that the early christian community was a mystery religion, or a revealed version of the mystery religions. And why does any of it have to do with freemasonry? Are you saying the the mason's were around back then (you seem to, epecially with the 'fasces' and 'stone-worker' connection, which wasn't very convicining)?

And what exactly they managed to stay hidden all this time?

How can the symbology of the higher degrees like the Scottish and York rites be considered evidence of the ancient roots of masonry if those degrees were created in teh 1700s? Isn't it more likely that the people that made those degrees were purposely trying ot appeal to what they know (or at least what they thought they knew) about the relevance of those religions to esoteric lines of thinking? IOW, not a 'genetic' relationship, not a continuous system of masonry from ancient times til now?

Also, are not the oldest forms of the legends of the craft the most biblical? The skeleton of the story is lifted from the bible even, with King Solomon getting King Hiram to sent a master artificer to help build the temple, Hiram Abif. Then the appealing story of his murder and return are brought in. But again this is more likely a connection to the jesus passion directly, since these Constitutions that contain the Legend of the Craft are written by regular pious christian labourers, and aren't, so far as anyone can show, taken into a more esoteric-philosophical interpretation. So it looks like the origings of freemasonry are really in little more than the masonry unions in northern england, made up of pious christian men. Later on comes Pythagoras, and then all the 'speculative' stuff during the "revival". And with the admission of antiquarians and historians and academics like Ashmole and others comes all the esoteric mumbo-jumbo of the higher degress.

I mean, thats all a lot more sensible than the 6,000 year survival of an underground mystery cult.

Nygdan, excellent work. You've done a better job at the debate than the Masons, who are too close to the subject!

I have no dog in this fight, but am looking for a good discussion.

It is harder to do this when the first post on the thread is mason baiting.

What is there to discuss? Some believe that masons and OTO and all secret societies are a huge conspiracy involving child molestation, murder, and satanic rituals.

Others believe that masons are nothing but what they say they are, a charitable fraternity.

There is no common ground between these positions.

Anyone can take a website, copy and paste it and call it research.

Heres my link for the true mason conspiracy.

A Priest, no babylonian or egyptian connection?



Mt Zion or Sinai!

Wow great link! Great explanation of the first 3 degrees! Thank you for adding to this thread! Oh and I aren’t baiting but perhaps I can agree to being a victim of anti mason baiting made by the Free Masons, some 6th month ago!
I don’t say that you are satanic! Or child molesters and masonry as a group cant be said to be murderers, but I am sure that some masons have committed murder and many other not so fine things!
The thing I would like to talk about is the Babylonian and Egyptian and Sumerian connection, and the Free Mason’s connection in stories and symbolism to these ancient lands and mystery schools!
There are 1 repeat it ONE link in my article! If you’re going to accuse me of plagiarism provide some PROOF!

Ahh Nygdan! Hail and welcome 8)

I don't understand the point of the opening post

It is an investigation into the connections I talk about above! As I also have said I can’t prove there is a higher echelon or that the free masons are as old as I claim! I can however say that in their stories and through obsessive use of symbols they are somehow connected!

Christianity isn't a simple copy of paganistic myths, and the resemblances between the christ passion and other dying-hero myths is often over stated

Now I don’t mean to dissect you text Nygdan, but I would like to answer your questions, to the best of my ability! So that is the reason I’m doing it this way, I have heard some one say to me that excessive quoting is not favoured in this community 8p.
All that I say in resemblance to Christ is that;
1: He is fitting fine into all the other trinity stories I have provided!
2: He is the son of god a.k.a. The son of the SUN, (but this is only theori)
3: He’s mother were also a virgin like Semiramis and Isis etc.
4: The resurrection part is very much alike all the others as explained!
5: He dies for our sins as does Tammuz.
6: Also he’s birthday? C’mon? It was celebrated thousands of years before as the REBIRTH of the SUN!

ETC. ETC:

For reference we can take into account, the Sumerian tablets which is from around 2000 BC. They speak of the "King in the basket", "EDEN" and "The great flood".

……..

And why does any of it have to do with freemasonry? Are you saying the the mason's were around back then (you seem to, epecially with the 'fasces' and 'stone-worker' connection, which wasn't very convicining)?

As I have said the connection as I see it; is in the rituals, texts and symbols! And off course not to forget our ancient and current history. The Free Masonry as an organization wasn’t around back then, but the cult they are in now does originate from the same one! You can actually track these cults around, on the map, Sumer – Egypt – Babylon – Greece – Rome – France – Holland – England – America – Israel.

And what exactly they managed to stay hidden all this time?

That’s the ancient trick, Hide in plain sight! Secret initiations, secret knowledge get them in deeper and deeper, while you work all their conceptions into what you want it to be! First as priest kings of Egypt, Sumer and Babylon then as oracles and prophets of Greece and Rome, Jesuits and Vatican, Royal Bloodlines and more priest, finally as presidents and bankers etc. etc.

How can the symbology of the higher degrees like the Scottish and York rites be considered evidence of the ancient roots of masonry if those degrees were created in teh 1700s? Isn't it more likely that the people that made those degrees were purposely trying ot appeal to what they know (or at least what they thought they knew) about the relevance of those religions to esoteric lines of thinking? IOW, not a 'genetic' relationship, not a continuous system of masonry from ancient times til now?

Because it is the same symbology as they used all the time! But I will give you this; yes it is more likely that they are trying to appeal to what they know about the relevance of those old religions!
And Free Masonry is just another tool of these people to hide it! IN PLAIN SIGHT!

Also, are not the oldest forms of the legends of the craft the most biblical?

The bible consists of the New Testament and the old! A lot of their stories is about nations before that time the New Testament where written in 300 AD remember!

The skeleton of the story is lifted from the bible even, with King Solomon getting King Hiram to sent a master artificer to help build the temple, Hiram Abif. Then the appealing story of his murder and return are brought in. But again this is more likely a connection to the jesus passion directly, since these Constitutions that contain the Legend of the Craft are written by regular pious christian labourers, and aren't, so far as anyone can show, taken into a more esoteric-philosophical interpretation.

True, it could very well be, and it is a plausible explanation! The true secret could very well be ancient Geometry!
But who taught them this? I believe it to be these ancient cults who made the pyramid and build them all around the world in INDUS VALLEY and AMERICA etc. it is also an ancient trick to hide a cult within the cult!

So it looks like the origings of freemasonry are really in little more than the masonry unions in northern england, made up of pious christian men. Later on comes Pythagoras, and then all the 'speculative' stuff during the "revival". And with the admission of antiquarians and historians and academics like Ashmole and others comes all the esoteric mumbo-jumbo of the higher degress.

Actually the Free Masons can be traced back further! To the Order of St. John, Teutonic Knights, Knights Hospitaller and Knights Templars!

But you could be right Nygdan!

I mean, thats all a lot more sensible than the 6,000 year survival of an underground mystery cult.

It is isn’t it!


NeonHelmet

[edit on 28-7-2005 by NeonHelmet]

sebatwerk:

i went to the lodge room forum and found this thread:

'Has anyone considered targeting colleges for new members'

why do a FM even ask a question like this - does he not know
how your fraternity works/operates? just asking.

oh, and another thing, i went to the greek island of rhodes this
summer and the old town was full of stores selling FM wall plaques,
knights of malta t-shirts and big statues (and smaller) of knights templars.

do you know what 'version' [for lack of a better word] of FM the greek are practicing?

peace.

Originally posted by duskboy
sebatwerk:

i went to the lodge room forum and found this thread:

'Has anyone considered targeting colleges for new members'

why do a FM even ask a question like this - does he not know
how your fraternity works/operates? just asking.

Unfortunately, many current Masonic leaders and administrators are single-minded, and to them it's all a numbers game. Granted, the Fraternity needs a large membership in order to continue its charities, but I disagree with many of the ideas currently being used to attract new members. For example, I don't think we should be recruiting, even indirectly, on college campuses, or anywhere else. The problem with this numbers mentality is that the Brethren who promote it, although well-intentioned, generally see Freemasonry as just another club, with no higher purpose. This sort of mentality contributes to cheapening the Masonic experience to that of "just another club", to the point of recruiting for new members.

oh, and another thing, i went to the greek island of rhodes this
summer and the old town was full of stores selling FM wall plaques,
knights of malta t-shirts and big statues (and smaller) of knights templars.

do you know what 'version' [for lack of a better word] of FM the greek are practicing?

peace.

The Grand Lodge of Greece works in the York Rite, as do the Grand Lodges in the USA, Canada, and the UK. There website can be found at:

www.grandlodge.gr...

i went to the lodge room forum and found this thread

which lodge room forum?

And what does all this have to do with this thread?

Originally posted by duskboy
sebatwerk:

i went to the lodge room forum and found this thread:

'Has anyone considered targeting colleges for new members'

why do a FM even ask a question like this - does he not know
how your fraternity works/operates? just asking.

Did you read the responses to that question? Not very positive responses. I can't speak for all Masons
but most that I know are against recruitment, that's not to say they are aginst talking about or letting people know they Masons though.

The question probably arose due to declining membership. Many years ago(long before my time), many men wanted to join
but as with most charitable organizations and civic clubs membership has been on a steady decline for quite a while.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Nygdan, excellent work. You've done a better job at the debate than the Masons, who are too close to the subject!
I have no dog in this fight, but am looking for a good discussion.

That's good to know TC. I suppose that's why you said:

"Not that I'm trying in the least to put you or your honorable but secretive power-hungry club for boys down"

...sure does LOOK and SMELL like a "dog" though....

Originally posted by NeonHelmet

i went to the lodge room forum and found this thread

which lodge room forum?

And what does all this have to do with this thread?

well neonhelmet,

sebatwerk mentioned www.thelodgeroom.com... in THIS
thread [the one you are looking at] and asked you and others to check
it out - i simply found something there that caught my attention and
asked him about it. now - pay attention to you own thread! ; )

peace

thanx to masonic light for your input [will edit if it was someone else].

[edit on 28-7-2005 by duskboy]