NEWS: Man mistakenly shot dead in London was Brazilian...

Running from police is not a execution on the spot offense in America.


This must a new Bush-Blair device to rid the world of the middle class one electrician(worker) at a time.

[edit on 7/24/2005 by bodebliss]

Bodebliss are you saying people are never shot mistakenly by the police in the US.

And where's your evidence that this was an execution on the spot. As far as I can see this was a mistaken case of preventative action.

Hopefully this won't turn into a thread about who has the most irresponsible police force, i seem to recall a thread recently about a 19 month old baby being shot dead in a hostage situation which all of a sudden everyone seemed to have a say in because it was so tragic? There are millions of police and security personnel out there who have to make life and death decisions in just a few seconds, none of them are out there without decent training and the majority are decent human beings who would go to pieces if they got it wrong on the day.

All we can hope is that they are acting as best they can with the best intelligence they could hope for. If it goes wrong like on this occasion then the blame does'nt just lie with the guy who pulled the trigger. I almost shot a guy back in 1991, it was in Germany when the IRA were keen on killing soldiers over there. I was given my "intelligence" brief as it were, that a guy in a trench coat had been seen with a machine gun outside the the base where i was stationed. Sure enough, as i drove out the gates i saw a guy about 6ft tall pulling aside his long jacket (middle of summer i might add) and pointing what looked like an MP5 across the road towards us. Within seconds we were out of the car and yelling the warning, handguns pointing straight at him. He took a few seconds to take heed of our orders but luckily for him....and us he did. I say luckily for us because he turned out to be a very tall 13yr old firing BB's at his mate from across the road with a very realistic MP5 BB gun! If he had'nt had put the gun down, toy or not, i'd have shot him and i would'nt have got done for it. I still think about that day even today 15 years later, what would have happened if i'd have shot a child.

Some tough calls to make out there people, i know suicide bombers are a different kettle of fish but it would be nice if some people did'nt just lay into the police or whoever done this before they know what its like to actually be faced with that. There may be a few countries out there that would quite happily carry out a cold blooded execution without a care whether they'd got the right guy or not, but i genuinely believe we the UK or the US are one of those countries.

Sorry for the rant, just needed to say it.

CX.

This isn't a matter of making the police out to be villains. It's a matter of holding them to a certain standard. We, as citizens, place our complete trust and faith in the police, and authorities in general, to keep their composure in difficult situations where we, as citizens, might not be able to. The idea being that we have a prevailing force that will keep the peace even when all hell has broken loose. I don't call plugging a guy 5 times, in front of innocent bystanders and while he's already pinned to the ground, a good example of keeping composure or keeping the peace. I would call it administering hot justice while enraged and completely out of control. Yes, of course it happens all the time, but that doesn't mean we should cheerfully accept it with an "Oops, I'm sorry", and just consider it another case of collateral damage. To me, that would be foolish and uncivilized. If we do that, then we may as well just accept that we live in a state of chaos where whoever is the quickest draw rules the day.

I, as a citizen, understand that in such a situation split-second decisions concerning life and death must be made, and I'm glad I'm not the one making them. But, as a citizen, I also hold the police to a far higher standard and place faith in them to make these decisions correctly and responsibly. If they are unable to meet this higher standard, then give me a gun and a license to kill so I can shoot back when fired upon ...

Hey, here's an idea. Don't be an idiot, don't act like a threat, and maybe the police won't shoot you.

When the police tell you to produce ID, do you move slowly, or do you try and draw it like clint eastwood?

When the police ask you to put your hands up, do you whip around to face them with your hands at your sides?

No, because then you get what you deserve- one express ticket to Slab City. As Majic said, terminal stupidity. This isn't about holding police accountable. If you act like a threat, then you'll be treated like one, even if you aren't.

Here's an idea- civvies should be accountable for how they act, just like policemen! I mean, if it LOOKS like the police are doing something wrong, the entire force is crucified by the public. Some rockhead microwaves his baby, it's a footnote on page 23 of your morning news. Want fair? Act stupid. Go ahead, pack a big camping bag full of clothes, wear a big jacket, and start running from cops and jumping turnstiles.

DE

"Hey, here's an idea. Don't be an idiot, don't act like a threat, and maybe the police won't shoot you.
"

You are wrong they had him pinned.

It was the adrenalin of the chase that made them kill. Police should be able to handle that.

If your wife or girlfriend wrecks your car, your not allowed to draw a gun and shoot her upon seeing the damage.

Originally posted by DeusEx
Hey, here's an idea. Don't be an idiot, don't act like a threat, and maybe the police won't shoot you.

DE

Personally, I'm pretty sure I would have frozen with my hands in the air. But, that's me, and this person didn't do that. That doesn't mean he deserved to be killed ...

Originally posted by bodebliss
You are wrong they had him pinned.

It was the adrenalin of the chase that made them kill. Police should be able to handle that.

news.bbc.co.uk...

"He half tripped... they pushed him to the floor and basically unloaded five shots into him," he told BBC News 24.

This is not 'pinned.' This is not 'positive control'.

Now, if he was a suicide bomber, are you going to take a chance, let him go for a detonator? Try for subdual, knowing that a flick of the thumb will kill you and dozens of others? No, you're going to try to put this person off balance with one hand and try to fill him with lead with the other.

See? Cops are your friend. Try applying the concept of personal responsibility of the victim. If you play in traffic, and someone hits you...sure, it's sorta bad. But you were asking for it.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
When the police tell you to produce ID, do you move slowly, or do you try and draw it like clint eastwood?

I refuse to provide ID, because at this moment in the U.K. we do not have to do such a thing.

Originally posted by DeusEx
When the police ask you to put your hands up, do you whip around to face them with your hands at your sides?

I turn around and ask them under which section of PACE (and other such bills) they are stopping me under. If they do not name it I walk off.

Originally posted by DeusEx
Here's an idea- civvies should be accountable for how they act, just like policemen! I mean, if it LOOKS like the police are doing something wrong, the entire force is crucified by the public. Some rockhead microwaves his baby, it's a footnote on page 23 of your morning news. Want fair? Act stupid. Go ahead, pack a big camping bag full of clothes, wear a big jacket, and start running from cops and jumping turnstiles.

DE

If they do not break the law, there is nothing wrong with it. Why should people not be able to wear what they want? Or should we all buckle and begin to live in a higher level of fear like the terrorists want?

Originally posted by picard_is_actually_a_grey

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
The answer to all of this subway shooting is OBVIOUS to me:

Require NATIONAL ID CARDS to enter the subway. It's foolproof.

It will keep YOU from getting shot AND keep you from being bombed.

There is nothing that NATIONAL ID CARDS cannot solve.

I can't wait for mine here in the US...I hope to God it has an RFID, magnetic strip, photo, and barcode as well. Maybe, if we're lucky, we can use it like a smart card for all of our purchases as well. That will keep all the bad guys (e.g. our neighbors, countrymen, etc.) from buying anything harmful.

You do realise all 4 bombers from 7/7 were british, with no previous links to terrorism or a criminal record.

I can't be positive but I believe that was sarcasm lol.

Originally posted by Odium

I refuse to provide ID, because at this moment in the U.K. we do not have to do such a thing.

There is at this moment no requirement to carry any form of ID with you and other than under road traffic and anti-social behaviour legislation, you do not commit an offence in English law by refusing to give your name and address to the police. However there are certain situations where the police may arrest you if they cannot establish your name and address, and if you are arrested and charged with an offence you will be unlikely to be granted bail unless they can establish these details.

If the police have demanded your details under Section 25 PACE and they have ‘reasonable suspicion’ that the details you have provided are not correct, then they have the power to arrest you in order to establish your name and address. What amounts to ‘reasonable suspicion’ is unclear but any arrest must be justified and if the police cannot demonstrate “reasonable suspicion”, you could sue them afterwards for false imprisonment.

[I turn around and ask them under which section of PACE (and other such bills) they are stopping me under. If they do not name it I walk off.

Thats your right to ask but the police have the power to detain you if they suspect you are involved in terrorist activities. If you are walking around with a big heavy coat on in the summer, running into a tube failing to stop for the police you should expect them to react the same way. They only have a split second to make the decision of whether you are a threat or not and if you are acting like that expect to get shot.

I'm no fan of the police but they got this situation absolutely correct. I've also noted how many facts are omitted from the statements of folks trying to have a dig at the police :

1. He was wearing similar clothes as the previous 4 successful suicide bombers and the 4 unsuccessful bombers.
2. He did not stop when the police asked him to and they showed him ID.
3. He ran towards a tube station (DUH!) and leapt over the barrier (big DUH)
4. A suicide bomber will by definition blow him/herself up therefore you have to prevent him/her from pulling the trigger i.e. kill them......people have survived with one and two bullets to the head!

The guy has lived in Britain for 3 years and knew full well how the police operate i.e. they don't go around shooting people in the street ! He also knew full well that at that time of the day in that area there are no such thing as armed gangs roaming the street. He also knew full well that there is hightened state of alert for terrorists so you have to be an utter moron to run into a tube station when asked to stop.

His actions put other people in the area in danger!

"His actions put other people in the area in danger!"

That's presumptuous!

He didn't have a bomb !

Is everyone overlooking that?

Originally posted by bodebliss
"His actions put other people in the area in danger!"

That's presumptuous!

He didn't have a bomb !

Is everyone overlooking that?

Sounds like you are trying to justify his refusing to stop when the police told him to stop. Wither he had a bomb is not relevant, the fact is he brought this all on by his own actions. Had he stopped he would still be alive wouldn't he?

Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by bodebliss
"His actions put other people in the area in danger!"

That's presumptuous!

He didn't have a bomb !

Is everyone overlooking that?

Sounds like you are trying to justify his refusing to stop when the police told him to stop. Wither he had a bomb is not relevant, the fact is he brought this all on by his own actions. Had he stopped he would still be alive wouldn't he?

Exactly.

As ugly as it looks, if someone who is told to stop and shown ID takes off running towards a subway station full of people, I'm sorry but if he wasn't taken down I would be issuing some major complaints.

Unless you live under a rock you have to know that times are changing and this isn't cops and robbers anymore. Wake up, if you go running from the cops into a crowded area expect to catch a cap in the arse.

I wonder if this had been in the states in a place like Texas if a civilian would have shot the guy before the cop had the chance to.

Just came in on Sky News that he was shot 8 not 5 times.

Just to jot down the points so far in this case to refresh,

=Evidence in one of the bomb bags, lead the police to the flat where this man lived,
=This man came out on a hot day wearing a Black bomber jacket,
=The man was an illegal here in the UK, possible the reason he ran from police,
=The man was now know to have been shot 8 times not 5, (reports coming in from the police commission)

Originally posted by asala
=The man was now know to have been shot 8 times not 5, (reports coming in from the police commission)

Why did police shoot the Brazilian man 7 times in the head/face? Makes me wonder how dead a man has to be?

Pretty damn dead. I also posted somewhere else that Friday was a rather cool morning - not *hot* as several people claim, as the people on my usual bus route were wearing sweaters, jumpers and 2 had on proper coats.

Things you can't be in London at the moment:

1. Late for work
2. Cold
3. Ethnic
4. Scared
5. Dumb
6. Holding a backpack
7. Have been a visitor to Pakistan

Why did police shoot the Brazilian man 7 times in the head/face? Makes me wonder how dead a man has to be?

Details are still not clear on that yet.


SHOT SEVEN TIMES IN HEAD