NEWS: Man mistakenly shot dead in London was Brazilian...

Originally posted by UiNeill
Just thinking

Im visiting Brazil, i dont obviously speak the language

On my way to where ever im going these men with weapons call to me, i dont understand what they are saying, theyre not wearing any sort of uniform, unfamilar with the country, with armed men shouting at me, what would i do?

leg it of course, what the hell would you do, run like hell

Ive seen that picture, shows a male, scruffy tshirt, jeans, trainers, automatic weapon, seen enough of those on the streets of Belfast and they wern't collecting for the Red Cross

Hmm....You obviously don't know how psychotic the Police are on Brazil. I have seen videos where they will execute criminals rather than bring them in as they save on the paperwork!

The current theory this guys family are putting forward for him running is that he grew up in San Paolo, a poor district of Rio and as a result had some bad experiences from guys with guns, including the Brazilian Police.

Now, why this guy did actually run is a mystery, but he was a perfectly legal immigrant hoding down a decent job as an electrician (some sparkies can earn BIG money in the UK, especially London).

He should have stopped, regardless of his past or even if he had some weed on him! I know, that if I was confronted by 20 armed police (even if I wasn't sure they were police) I wouldn't run, even if I had a kilo of Purple Haze in my trousers, as I know I am asking for it then and would expect to be gunned down.

Had he just stopped and spoken to the Police (and he may have been arrested and questioned) he would have been out by Thurs afternoon and in the pub.

Instead, he chose to run, vault over the ticket barrier (all whilst coming from a suspected terrorist safe house and wearing bulky clothing on a hot day, remember) and hurl headlong onto a train.

I would have shot him too.


EDIT: As a side note, it isn't actually required of police to announce themselves if they believe there to be an immediate threat to public safety:

The police deployment of firearms is governed by a manual published by the Association of Police Officers, last revised in February 2005.

It is not true to say that police officers must identify themselves or shout a warning when confronting a suspect believed to pose a grave and imminent threat.

The manual says that that procedure "should be considered" but recognises that the key aim of an operation is to "identify, locate, contain and neutralise" the threat posed.

In many situations, this would require the suspect to stop moving and put his hands in view.

news.bbc.co.uk...

[edit on 24/7/05 by stumason]

Damn... That's all I can say... Think about his family... How did you're son die... -He was shot by the police, he was inicent... Nobody is gona trust the police so much anymore...

Damn shame, especially since ignorant folks will turn this into a backlash against police. Obviously, this guy wasn't a threat, we know that now...but did they at the time? Let's go through this.

1. Police stake out house.

2. Person from within house emerges, wearing bulky clothes and carrying a backpack. This is the known modus operandi of the recent suicide attacks.

3. Upon being confronted by police, man then proceeds to run towards nearest tube station, packed with people.

Now, I don't know about you, but this says to me..."Hey! I'm a suicide bomber! I'm running towards the places we've been attacking! I'm RESISTING ARREST! I'm going to done s'plode myself in the most populated area I can before the police catch me!"

As for shooting the man while he was down, I would want to make DAMN sure he's dead if he's still fighting after beign jumped by a bunch of armed officers. I'm not going to risk him hitting the detonator, I'm going to shoot him until he stops moving.

I know I would have shot him, as well as most other people in the officer's shoes. Sure, you can lie with the hindsight, but next time, are you willing to risk your own life, the lives of your fellow officers and the lives of dozens of innocent civilians on the off chance that this person wasn't a suicide bomber when all this actions point to the contrary?

It's a tradgedy. Now, don't make it worse. Next time the police don't jump someone, it might cost twenty or thirty people their lives because of the ignorance of others. Common sense, people- every time you run from a cop, you're putting your life in your hands, especially in these dark ages.

DE

If this had happened in America, their would have been a huge furore and a huge ruckus. People would be calling this Bush's tyranny and Plice state and such, yet in Britan it is okay!!
I cant believe that!
It was nothing short of a Gestapo Action, following somebody with plain clothed police and then chasing him is criminal in itself.
They too him to the ground and shot him?? What would anybody call that, police caution? i think this time the Met police has to be held responsible, what they did is not only shows shoddy police work but desperation. They werent capable of arresting anybody who was really a terrorist, so they were desperate and shot this innocent man without any evidence!
How can this not be anything more than a complete failure on part of the UK's finest police force? In the US, this would never have happened, the guy would have been TASERED before he could move adn then detained.
This is a barbaric act by supposedly civilized and compassionate Police force. Guess due to their inexperience with guns and their lethatlity they police were scared that the guy migh have blown himself up so to save their own skins shot him instead, they couldnt bother restraining him effectively, they werent capable! They were desperate to actually protect people this time and not stand in the side line that they decided that shooting somebody they could vent ther frustration, immature and irresposible especially if you carry a weapon!
In america police are so accustomed to guns and their danger that they are very carefull and know that once you pull that trigger their is no stoppping it.
What suprised me the most is that how could the police be so brutal and so scared at the same time, i always was under the impression that the British police were more compassionate and brave but this shows contrary.
They had the guy pinned and then why did they shoot, they could have restrained his arms and held him or tasered him or tranqulizer or anything but they didnt !
BTW do the british police use TASERS?

If this had happened in America, their would have been a huge furore and a huge ruckus. People would be calling this Bush's tyranny and Plice state and such, yet in Britan it is okay!!
I cant believe that!
It was nothing short of a Gestapo Action, following somebody with plain clothed police and then chasing him is criminal in itself.

Dude, this happens in the states all the time. Eevry other day there are stories about so-and-so being shot for this, or small child killed for that. But, I am not going to deviate this thread into a Brit vs US police debate as that isn't the point.

They too him to the ground and shot him?? What would anybody call that, police caution? i think this time the Met police has to be held responsible, what they did is not only shows shoddy police work but desperation. They werent capable of arresting anybody who was really a terrorist, so they were desperate and shot this innocent man without any evidence!

Wasn't shoddy police work at all. And to claim that, in the light of past expierience and the work that has gone on so far is ludicrous.

How can this not be anything more than a complete failure on part of the UK's finest police force? In the US, this would never have happened, the guy would have been TASERED before he could move adn then detained.

Yeah, right. How easily you forget the many cases of over the top police brutality coming out of the States. And Israel I might add, as I know your a staunch supporter of them (targetted killings/tank fire at schools anyone? innocents dying all the time in the ME).

Anyway, stop trying to deviate the thread into villifying the UK security services when if they didn't shoot and this guy was a bomber, you would be on here slating the Police for "shoddy police work" and claiming they should have shot him.

How can you tazer a man, running at full pelt (and you as well) in a crowded area? Please explain how....

Guess due to their inexperience with guns

Right.........

In america police are so accustomed to guns and their danger that they are very carefull and know that once you pull that trigger their is no stoppping it.

...I forgot that the US police only open fire in extreme circumstances and only on those people they are sure are criminals.....

What suprised me the most is that how could the police be so brutal and so scared at the same time, i always was under the impression that the British police were more compassionate and brave but this shows contrary.

What? Damned if they do and damned if they don't isn't it? Anyway, this wasn't the police.

BTW do the british police use TASERS?

they are currently trialing them in the Thames Valley Police (my local force)...yippee.....

The police made a difficult decision under very difficult circumstances, it was a tragedy but I love the way the event is now being taken completely out of context and used as an example of trigger happy repressive cops stalking the streets of London and popping off any foriegn looking individuals.

I would like to ask if you or your family were sitting on that tube train as that event unfolded and you did not KNOW what the guys motives were, what would you have preffered them to do, let him go or try and stop him.

the police staked out a non-productive area

they jumped to conclusions

they let the adrenilin generated by someone running from them(like running from a pitbull or bear) overtake their reasoning

and they decided he must pay on the spot for not recognizing their authority

It happens all the time in militia held areas lawless countries and now London. what next door-door searches and on the spot executions?

Originally posted by IAF101
Guess due to their inexperience with guns and their lethatlity

Yes, the armed offices of Special Branch who are trained BY THE SAS who are in turn inexperienced in the use of firearms and there lethality.
And as for the use of a Taser the 'prongs' that deliver the current would not have penetrated the thick jacket the target was wearing.

Some poeple

No, they decided he must die to prevent him setting off a bomb.

A man came out of the suspected terrorist house

He was wearing the same clothes the terrorsit wore

The man spoke good English, the police asked him to stop.

He fled, jumped over the barrier staright to an area where previous attacks have happened.

If the police dont shoot him dead, theyre not doing their job.

Id be interested what the whiners would say if the next guy that runs is carrying a bomb and the police dont shoot him and their wife/daughter is on the carriage.

Under all the circumstances the police did the right thing.

You do not have to be Muslim to be a terrorist. You also do not have to be from the Middle East, or even of Middle Eastern descent. The fact that he was Brazilian means very little.

Brazilian media reported that Menezes was an electrician who had been legally living and working in England for the past three years. He originally came from the small city of Gonzaga, some 500 miles northeast of Sao Paulo in the state of Minas Gerais.

"He spoke English very well, and had permission to study and work there," Menezes' cousin Maria Alves told the O Globo Online Web site from her home in Sao Paulo.

C'mon...the guy was able to read a schematic chart and spoke at least two languages. How could he have *not* known about the bombing attacks and the heightened state of security?

I believe that the motive here was to distract the public, and make the British government and law enforcement look like demons.

This is not merely a war against extremists in the desert, it is also a form of information warfare. This is why we have users arguing over news sources. This is why the stigma is attached to extremists, that they're all Muslim males with dark skin.

What the "terrorists" want is for us to hate our own governments. The timing was perfect for the Menezes' shooting. It shifted our dismay and our hate from the bad guys to the good guys.

There are accidental shootings daily in the United States. Some of these shootings come from our own law enforcement. Why aren't you as enraged when you open your Sunday paper and read about it happening within our borders? Had a man been mistakenly shot by the NYPD following 9/11, he wouldn't be receiving this amount of media coverage.

The British LE had a small amount of time to assess a 50/50 situation. The either was or was not a "terrorist." He was behaving strangely, and was wearing a large winter jacket. Tension grew in the LE's minds, and running away from the police only made his situation worse.

I sincerely believe that this is a ploy to direct our anger toward our governments. When 50-1500 people are killed, we stand together and wear ribbons and flags. When a single man is shot during a heightened sense of security, we bicker and argue and blame authority.

Why?

Dot.

In a poll today, 83% of British Citizen still support the shoot to kill policy. Cant remember who carried out the poll, but its been on the TV stations today.

[edit on 24-7-2005 by infinite]

Just a bit off topic here, there may or may not be any connection here, but I find the possible relation interesting enough as a member here to post it in this discussion.

There has been a lot of speculation about the following picture of one of the London bombers. Many think what is on his clothing says "New York"



To me the second word looks like..

TOLI

Which in Brazilian/Portuguese (depending on context) translates to

folly, foolishness, silliness

The man police followed and later shot was Brazilian?


Gazz

Originally posted by UiNeill
Just thinking

Im visiting Brazil, i dont obviously speak the language

On my way to where ever im going these men with weapons call to me, i dont understand what they are saying, theyre not wearing any sort of uniform, unfamilar with the country, with armed men shouting at me, what would i do?

leg it of course, what the hell would you do, run like hell

Ive seen that picture, shows a male, scruffy tshirt, jeans, trainers, automatic weapon, seen enough of those on the streets of Belfast and they wern't collecting for the Red Cross

he wasn't a tourist, he had been living ion london for 15 years so should have been able to speak english fairly well by then. He was shown a warrant card and if he choose to run for whatever reason it was a pretty stupid thing to do in the current situation.

If he had been a suicide bomber and the police hadn't shot him you would all be asking why he wasn't! The police have a very difficult job to do and the officers had to make a split second decision on the information they had. They are not to be blamed for this but the people who supplied them with the faulty intelligence should be reprimanded for it!

police are human too, they make mistakes all the time but, unlike we civilians, they usually don't have to pay the price, so-to-speak. that officer will face some serious mental/emotional trauma. speaking as a former -law-enforcement (in the u.s.) officer, i wonder what 'suspicious' activity he was doing? the police tend to make the smallest things into a main theme for thier report and justify thier actions. even in the best layed plans, things will go wrong...........................

they shot the man as you cant take chances anymore

whats to say he wasent running into the underground to be a suicide bomber

if police didnt shoot people would be saying that the police hadent done anything

if anything he had brought it on himself
if police tell you to stop you stop not go jumping over ticket turnstiles
and if he hadent done anything wrong then he wouldnt be running?
what else were the police suppost to do
some may say just restrain him but he would still have time to click a button to detonate a bomb
evry precaution has to be taken and the police did nothing wrong

Exactly how terrorism works. The police are trying to be vigilant an protect the people from other attacks. Because of this they made a mistake but an unintentional one. It's a shame that an innocent person had died but we can't let our guards down or it will happen again.

Whoever said he'd been living in london for 15 years, thats just completely not true, he'd been livling there for 3 years while he was employed as an electrician. Another thing, people keep saying he walked out of a house that they had surveillance on, thats false as well, he came out of the same, huge, apartment complex, which contains dozens of apartments.

Originally posted by Djiane
Whoever said he'd been living in london for 15 years, thats just completely not true, he'd been livling there for 3 years while he was employed as an electrician. Another thing, people keep saying he walked out of a house that they had surveillance on, thats false as well, he came out of the same, huge, apartment complex, which contains dozens of apartments.

Again, grasping at straws in an attempt to villify the Security services. but then, had he been a bomber and hadn't been shot, it would be a different tune wouldn't it.

All the guy had to do was stop. Not sprint of at full pelt, leap the barriers and charge on a train. Had he stopped, he would have been down the pub come lunchtime with a free day off!

Met police Commissioner has also stated that whilst unfortunate, we may well get more of the same.

Especially if people start sprinting away from armed police and running into tube stations whilst wearing unseasonably bulky jackets, not listening to calls to halt.....

he could have just surrendered like this chap:

Some folks ought to read the original news article.

"Other relatives, in television and newspaper interviews, said the family was Roman Catholic and that Mr. Menezes had nothing to do with Islam."

The article also said that he was in the country legally working as an electrician, and was on his way to work.
All this speculation about Mendezes being tied to Islamic Extremist Terrorists seems a bit misplaced. He was ROMAN CATHOLIC.

Originally posted by rawiea
Some folks ought to read the original news article.

"Other relatives, in television and newspaper interviews, said the family was Roman Catholic and that Mr. Menezes had nothing to do with Islam."

The article also said that he was in the country legally working as an electrician, and was on his way to work.
All this speculation about Mendezes being tied to Islamic Extremist Terrorists seems a bit misplaced. He was ROMAN CATHOLIC.

What speculation? No one is speculating that at all. He was just a right numpty for running from armed police when challenged.