Is the Raptor capable of this...

as posted by grunt2
...also you are overating that "is secret" argument...

Erm, no I am not. What I state is merely a factoid that you fail to comprehend or take with credible validity.

The only time that such military hardware data is made fully available is when the aircraft is retired and/or has been deemed 'safe' to disclose because such information being revealed has no bearing or jeopardy to/on current or future projects, etc.

What is really being over-hyped or downplayed here is your lack of understanding when applied to national security secrets and what real information/data is revealed for public consumption, most of Congress included.

All internet sites listing information/data applied to the F-22 are simply base information for public consumption. You can continue to downplay and contest to the contrary, but you can not disprove what is simply a factoid of national security pertaining to military hardware, such as the F-22 Raptor. As such, the max supercruise and top speeds of the aircraft are still classified, along with other pertinent data/information in relation to this aircraft.




seekerof

[edit on 4-8-2005 by Seekerof]

you only post the "also you are overating that "is secret" argument", but dont see or dont like to see the rest

ahhhh Seekerof, why you cant see the facts???, anyway, you can live in your fantasy with that veeeery special secretive speculation max f22 speed

Your continued lack of understanding is befuddling, but hey, it is your credibility here that is being strained and undoubtedly questioned, not mine.

Carry on wayward son.




seekerof

well,well,well,well keep in your fairy tales.......son

Fantasy and fairy tales are applied terms that have no bearing to this discussion, but your continued education remains of utmost importance.

Pay attention here, k?
Example of the F-22 being classified and falling under National Security information.

Engine maximum thrust and maximum supercruise: Classified:
F-22 Raptor: Structural Design and Systems Overview

RCS values of the Raptor: Classified:
MILNET: The Early History of Stealth

Raptors applied weight: Classified:
21ST CENTURY FIGHTER

Top/Maximum speed: Classified:
Vehicles, Ships, Aircraft, and Weaponry
The Three Fighters

Raptors height to climb speeds: Classified:
Carlo Kopp interviews F-22 Chief Test Pilot, Paul Metz

Range: Classified:
CIAS Aircraft Database

Among other classified categories being the Raptor's ESM and ECM/ECCM capabilities, etc.

Perhaps you can read the links given below to fully comprehend and appreciate what is deemed as National Security interests and information.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 12958: CLASSIFIED NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION
Security Clearance

so???

again, the f15,f14, f4 were in more compromised position but their speeds, climb etc were known from the start, obviously are things that are classified, but that dont mean the general performances, actually the f15 and f4 were used to beat world records

you can say again, and again that "is classified", is only that you can do, you dont like the reality so you avoid that saying that the f22 is a proyect like the f117- a plane that was truely classified-

after 15 years and the f22 didnt beat any climb record, what you think that only because is "classified" -that isnt in the degree that you think- they wont try to beat a record with a veeery polemic plane??... if they could

you use that "classified" only to speculate....

again if that would be the case, right now we should be in a completely review of the f104, f100, and even the f4 performances, but that isnt the case, because the operative speeds an performances arent top secret

btw, nice sources, veniks and popular mechanics

[edit on 4-8-2005 by grunt2]

Originally posted by grunt2
so???

again, the f15,f14, f4 were in more compromised position but their speeds, climb etc were known from the start, obviously are things that are classified, but that dont mean the general performances, actually the f15 and f4 were used to beat world records

you can say again, and again that "is classified", is only that you can do, you dont like the reality so you avoid that saying that the f22 is a proyect like the f117- a plane that was truely classified-

after 15 years and the f22 didnt beat any climb record, what you think that only because is "classified" -that isnt in the degree that you think- they wont try to beat a record with a veeery polemic plane??

... if they could

you use that "classified" only to speculate....

btw, nice sources, veniks and popular mechanics

Wait, are you trying to down grade the F-22 because its classified?

Wait, are you trying to down grade the F-22 because its classified?

ahhh, is only about avoid speculation, nothing more, why deviwasp, you also dont like the M1.8 f22 max speed???


[edit on 4-8-2005 by grunt2]

the people dont like the max M1.8, so they try to find a resource to speculate, and that is the "classified" stage of alll the weapons in alll the world, but that isnt aplicable, because isnt a top secret proyect, is very public like the su 27, f15, mig 21, etc...,all have very well known operative speeds, but obviously the max speed -on special condition, like dive engine limits,etc..- is classified

Originally posted by Seekerof
Fantasy and fairy tales are applied terms that have no bearing to this discussion, but your continued education remains of utmost importance.

Pay attention here, k?
Example of the F-22 being classified and falling under National Security information.



seekerof

Please note:
You have voted Seekerof for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Thanks Seekerof for coming through (once again) with some nice info and links on the F-22. It amazes me how men can stare truth straight in the face and still not see. The complete true abilities of the F-22 are and will remain a mystery to us the masses for a minute or more. Good work my friend!

Cebu

You just don't get it Grunt. It has nothing to do with how much we like the Raptor.

It's simply the way things are done. The US military, DoD, Pentagon, USAF etc keeps things like the Raptors max supercruising speed secret. Why? Because in war, this information is vital. They give a number which shows the public a general "in the ballpark" figure of what the aircraft is capable of without giving up vital information.

Just look at the facts Grunt. The Raptor has a higher thrust to wieght ratio then the SR-71 blackbird. Thats a lot of power. It was designed to have a very effecient high speed shape. Is it that hard to believe that the Raptor could supercruise at Mach .3 faster then the public figures state?

Just look at the facts Grunt. The Raptor has a higher thrust to wieght ratio then the SR-71 blackbird. Thats a lot of power. It was designed to have a very effecient high speed shape. Is it that hard to believe that the Raptor could supercruise at Mach .3 faster then the public figures state?

ohhh, not again, another speculation, look the f18 has muuuch better t/w than the f14a, which plane have the best speed???, aerodynamics and aviation designs isnt sooo simple, isnt only to look the t/w and start to speculate

USAf, goverment, congress, etc keep the max speed of all their planes under "secret", but these arent operational speeds

ahh,wait just forget it, the f18 and the mig25 both have almost the same t/w,as a weapon also have a "classified" status, so the f18 must be fastest -perhaps faster- as the foxbat!!!! yeahhhhhh!!!! gooooo america, gooooooooooooo!!!!

dont missinterpret this last comment, i have american friends that are laughing with this last -they also laugh by my bad english -, isnt anti-american, is just anti-nationalism, the f22 is a greate plane, a good concept, a greate replacement of the eagle, but please dont overate the things

[edit on 5-8-2005 by grunt2]

This thread will be closed soon, because the conversation has skilipped of the original subject and has now diversed to "Raptor, and confidence"... Just thought that you should know...

Originally posted by grunt2
ohhh, not again, another speculation, look the f18 has muuuch better t/w than the f14a, which plane have the best speed???, aerodynamics and aviation designs isnt sooo simple, isnt only to look the t/w and start to speculate

Yes, I agree - aerodynamics do play a big part. You do understand that the Raptor was designed with high, effecient cruising speed as one of it's main features don't you?

USAf, goverment, congress, etc keep the max speed of all their planes under "secret", but these arent operational speeds

Grunt, Seekerof has, repeatedly, posted ACTUAL RAPTOR PILOTS saying otherwise, ACTUAL DESIGNERS that say otherwise, and ACTUAL US GENERALS that say otherwise.

Who knows better? Raptor designe team members, raptor pilots, and the men who will command Raptors, or you?

BTW, you keep speaking about how you know more then us simple American folk. Where did you get your engineering degree? What company do you work for? How many 100 million dollar aircraft have you designed?

again official numbers are public, the same was in the f15-14-4-104 proyects from the start

again the f22 was designed for supercruiser, and supersonic lift, not as a super speed aicraft, there are differences in the concepts, the plane wasnt designed for low drag, was designed for high supersonic lift, both concepts are very very different, thats the reason why with such engines it can only reach M1.8, but also that is the reason why it can clim better at suppersonic or sustain a 6gs turn at M1.5

pilots also have said that can pull an f111 to M2.6-2.7,or the f14 at supercruiser is true ??? yes, why not, but that isnt the conventional operational speed

and again i wont reveal in which company im making my practices -because im not working yet- and from which country i am, coz i know that there are very agressive guys in this forum, so is better for me to avoid any problem

[edit on 5-8-2005 by grunt2]

Originally posted by grunt2
but im explaining that all the planes can reach higher speeds than their operational limits,with your logic i also could say that the f15, mig29, su27 or mig21 can supercruiser

or the f86 is a supersonic plane

I don't know how you can sit there and start posting knowing nothing about aviation and aerodynamics

[edit on 4-8-2005 by grunt2]

The configuration of the aircraft has a large effect on the top speed. Whether the airframe is fully fuelled, weapons load, external stores all affect top speed. Most speed records are set by stripped down airframes with just enough fuel to run the course. I wouldn't be surprised at a .3 Mn difference between different configurations.

In the end top speed doesn't really matter in a fight. Things like acceleration (to gain energy quickly) and supercruise (to get you to your enemy faster) matter. Even knowing the classified top speed isn't all that interesting to a potenial enemy because there are so many variables involved.

"In the end top speed doesn't really matter in a fight. Things like acceleration (to gain energy quickly) and supercruise (to get you to your enemy faster)"



RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!, the f22s big advantage is the supersonic speed, im not saying that the plane is bad, but the machine was specializated in such enviorement -specially supersonic agility-

but well higher instantaneus speeds always can bring you an advantage if you use that well,but thats relative is about which tactics you use

[edit on 5-8-2005 by grunt2]

Originally posted by grunt2
RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!, the f22s big advantage is the supersonic speed, im not saying that the plane is bad, but the machine was specializated in such enviorement -specially supersonic agility-

but well higher instantaneus speeds always can bring you an advantage if you use that well,but thats relative is about which tactics you use

[edit on 5-8-2005 by grunt2]

It probably has a few other things that make it a nice plane. Systems, ergonomics, etc. Those details are probably less glamourous than "top speed" but they matter in the field. I know it's got this really funky airconditioning cycle. Probably something picked up from the Gulf.

`outrun a missile` - even the blackbird cannot outrun a missile - BUT @M3 all the blackbird used to so , was turn a few degrees and through off the intercept by in excess of 100 miles.

www.fas.org...

the AIM-120 (AMRAAM) has a `top speed` of over M4


several , very knowledgable people have posted in this thread - and they`ve stated that the lack of varibale air intake is the reason the airaft isn`t M3 capable - but it is M2 capable , with supercruise in the M1.5 > M1.8 range. Which is better thannthe Gripens M1.05 supercruise and typhoon`s supercruise.

Originally posted by grunt2
again official numbers are public, the same was in the f15-14-4-104 proyects from the start

As was previously shown above, you are massively incorrect and that the numbers available on most internet sites, books, etc., are merely base numbers for PUBLIC consumption. Most of the Raptor's data and information remains classified and subject to National Security interests.

Originally posted by grunt2
again the f22 was designed for supercruiser, and supersonic lift, not as a super speed aicraft, there are differences in the concepts, the plane wasnt designed for low drag, was designed for high supersonic lift, both concepts are very very different, thats the reason why with such engines it can only reach M1.8, but also that is the reason why it can clim better at suppersonic or sustain a 6gs turn at M1.5

What the aircraft was designed for was total and complete air superiority and dominance: based on the usage of stealth for 'first look, first kill', again based on USAF air-superiority doctrine principles. Supercruise and the avionics/electronics package simply adds to accomplishing the USAF air superiority doctrine. The Raptor was not built around supercruise; supercruise was built into the total package.
Supercruise has been around for sometime, just never utilized/applied in the way that it is on the Raptor, and if you had been as knowledgeable in aeronautical engineering as you so claim, you would have known that supercruise has been around before the applied supercruise capabilities of the F-22 Raptor. The F-15, the F-16, and the F-14, among a host of other aircraft, can supercruise under "ideal" situations. As for the climb rate, roll rate and sustained G's of the Raptor, be assured that there is no other aircraft currently serving to date that can do what the Raptor can do. You are again mistaken on the engines of the Raptor in that they can "only" reach "Mach 1.8," completely off track and completely mistaken. I have provided two links for your consumption that indicate otherwise. Hello?!

Originally posted by grunt2
pilots also have said that can pull an f111 to M2.6-2.7,or the f14 at supercruiser is true ??? yes, why not, but that isnt the conventional operational speed

Pilots know more than you, especially the pilots that were linked for you concerning the F-22 and the reports of it supercruising at Mach 2. The speculative standard/normal operational supercruise speed for the Raptor during every-day flights and missions will be between 1.5-1.8. Afterall, it is currently the United States' fastest, smartest and most lethal Mach 2+ class fighter, if not in the world, thus far.

Originally posted by grunt2
and again i wont reveal in which company im making my practices -because im not working yet- and from which country i am, coz i know that there are very agressive guys in this forum, so is better for me to avoid any problem

Uh, riiiiiiiiiight.
There are a couple industry insiders on this board, grunt2, among others who have operational military experience, as well as those who work for governmental aeronautical defense agencys as civilains. None who I know, except one, has any problem whatsoever in letting someone know, such as youself, their credentials or for whom they work for. Your making up # and you know it. Why do I know this, cause half to most of what you have said within this topic thus far, is not backed by any engineering research, sources, or links, and some of what you are supposed to know, you actually do not know: some of your response have proven such.






seekerof

[edit on 5-8-2005 by Seekerof]