AI Report 2005--China

Once again, this thread has turned into a place for these agents to spread their typical propaganda!

All i have to say that you are a disgrace of our race. Instead of hoping for a better future for the our next generation, you are juz glad to see how they are suffering under the communist regime. Shame on you dn:

Each time when you and your comrades(or should I call you FLG/U.S agents too?) lose an argument or can't give any evidences, the only method for you is to call us "Brain-Washed" or "Agents".

To tell the truth, I have gotten used to it although it is quite boring.

In fact, I feel quite happy to see this situation happening again and again because English is only my second or third language. If we debate in Chinese, it is a piece of cake to overthrow most of your views or opinions with tons of evidences, photoes, arguments and idioms.

Originally posted by NotheRaGe
Once again, this thread has turned into a place for these agents to spread their typical propaganda!

All i have to say that you are a disgrace of our race. Instead of hoping for a better future for the our next generation, you are juz glad to see how they are suffering under the communist regime. Shame on you dn:

I repeat NO MORE SNIPING

Sorry.OK

Originally posted by Amuk
I repeat NO MORE SNIPING

Originally posted by google_abcd
Show us some photos not taken 16 years ago but nowadays

This painting is to memorialize some of the hundreds of Falun Gong practitioners who are known to have died under the violent repression. There are many more people who practice Falun Gong who are missing and unaccounted for after they were taken away by the Chinese authorities.

I was very shocked by the stories of Falun Gong practitioners that were wrongfully killed in China, so I decided to create something to remember them by. My background is computer science. Prior to creating this painting, I collected the digital photographs of the murdered Falun Gong practitioners, cropped the photographs and arranged them together as one digital image.

Because I practice Falun Gong so I know Falun Gong requires its cultivators to become better people. I watched these photographs and noticed some of the victims were very young when they were killed. Meng Hao (the baby in yellow cap in the front row), for example, was but eight months of age when he was tortured to death. Elderly folks were also among the many victims of Jiang Zemin’s genocide. All these people were trying to become better people, and they were subjected to Jiang Zemin’s terror and torture! I know people who have practiced Falun Gong for some time are very healthy and full of energy. After they restored or improved their health by practicing Falun Gong, Jiang Zemin badly wounded their bodies and took their precious lives! I feel terribly sad each time I think of these Falun Gong practitioners. Then I decided to collect the photographs of the Falun Gong practitioners that have been verified as having been tortured to death in China since July 20, 1999. Of course, the actual number of Falun Gong practitioners who died after being arrested is many times more than the number of deaths verified in this way. The preparatory work on the computer was easier. All I needed to do was to crop the head of each photograph and put all the heads together in one image. These photographs were taken while they were alive and well. You can tell by their photographs that they were very kind people. But this is how Jiang Zemin treats the kind citizens of China! I decided that I must create a painting containing the kind and happy faces of murdered Falun Gong practitioners and I will have everyone who sees this painting understand the people in the painting are kind and innocent victims of Jiang Zemin’s terror. I also hope that they will relay the truth they see in this painting to other people, and help end the persecution together.

I could find only 280 photographs of these victims. Nevertheless, I included every single photograph I found in this painting. Some of the photographs are very tiny. Some are fingernail sized. Some are small and blurry. Despite these technical difficulties, I tried my best portraying each deceased Falun Gong practitioner based on his photograph. I also tried to put as many details as possible in each portrait. When Jiang Zemin slaughtered these people, he also subjected their families to sorrow and terror. Each of these murdered Falun Gong practitioners had a family. Some of them had children and some had parents who relied on their love and care. I hope these deceased Falun Gong practitioners will continue to live through my painting. But I have no way to include some of the victims because they were killed before they were born to the world. Jiang Zemin had his henchmen kill pregnant Falun Gong practitioners and carry out forced abortions. Those unborn babies were also lives! But I was unable to paint these unborn lives!

According to incomplete statistics, since July 20, 1999, more than 1,260 practitioners have been verified as being tortured to death in China as of January 9, 2005. When I first came up with the idea of this painting, the number was less than 300. That was just the number of murdered Falun Gong practitioners whose names can be verified. The actual number of death is far larger than that! I wanted to present the happy faces of these people in a painting so that the audience can see how happy and kind they were when they were practicing Falun Gong. They were known as very kind employees and colleagues at work. I could not help crying as I thought more about what they were like when they were alive. Look at this painting. Some of them are still teenagers when they were killed. There is a touching story behind each face in this painting.

[edit on 12-9-2005 by Oct]

I just checked the amnesty international report for the US:
(mind you this is pre-katrina)

web.amnesty.org...

Even switzerland doesn't escape the wrath of amnesty unscathed!!

web.amnesty.org...


Amnesty just likes to take pot shots at everyone..

I checked up a few countries and amnesty doesn't seem to think that progress made by anyone in the sphere of human rights
They just like to bash everyone left right and center

Originally posted by Daedalus3

I checked up a few countries and amnesty doesn't seem to think that progress made by anyone in the sphere of human rights
They just like to bash everyone left right and center

Perhaps if the countries in question would actually behave more civilly to it's citizens, AI wouldn't have so much reason to "bash".

That said, there are plenty of instances where nations are praised for overcoming certain issues and/or making progress; maybe you just didn't find those bits?

Obivously you are not able to tell the difference between a photo and a painting...

Originally posted by Oct

Originally posted by google_abcd
Show us some photos not taken 16 years ago but nowadays

This painting is to memorialize some of the hundreds of Falun Gong practitioners who are known to have died under the violent repression. There are many more people who practice Falun Gong who are missing and unaccounted for after they were taken away by the Chinese authorities.

I was very shocked by the stories of Falun Gong practitioners that were wrongfully killed in China, so I decided to create something to remember them by. My background is computer science. Prior to creating this painting, I collected the digital photographs of the murdered Falun Gong practitioners, cropped the photographs and arranged them together as one digital image.

Because I practice Falun Gong so I know Falun Gong requires its cultivators to become better people. I watched these photographs and noticed some of the victims were very young when they were killed. Meng Hao (the baby in yellow cap in the front row), for example, was but eight months of age when he was tortured to death. Elderly folks were also among the many victims of Jiang Zemin’s genocide. All these people were trying to become better people, and they were subjected to Jiang Zemin’s terror and torture! I know people who have practiced Falun Gong for some time are very healthy and full of energy. After they restored or improved their health by practicing Falun Gong, Jiang Zemin badly wounded their bodies and took their precious lives! I feel terribly sad each time I think of these Falun Gong practitioners. Then I decided to collect the photographs of the Falun Gong practitioners that have been verified as having been tortured to death in China since July 20, 1999. Of course, the actual number of Falun Gong practitioners who died after being arrested is many times more than the number of deaths verified in this way. The preparatory work on the computer was easier. All I needed to do was to crop the head of each photograph and put all the heads together in one image. These photographs were taken while they were alive and well. You can tell by their photographs that they were very kind people. But this is how Jiang Zemin treats the kind citizens of China! I decided that I must create a painting containing the kind and happy faces of murdered Falun Gong practitioners and I will have everyone who sees this painting understand the people in the painting are kind and innocent victims of Jiang Zemin’s terror. I also hope that they will relay the truth they see in this painting to other people, and help end the persecution together.

I could find only 280 photographs of these victims. Nevertheless, I included every single photograph I found in this painting. Some of the photographs are very tiny. Some are fingernail sized. Some are small and blurry. Despite these technical difficulties, I tried my best portraying each deceased Falun Gong practitioner based on his photograph. I also tried to put as many details as possible in each portrait. When Jiang Zemin slaughtered these people, he also subjected their families to sorrow and terror. Each of these murdered Falun Gong practitioners had a family. Some of them had children and some had parents who relied on their love and care. I hope these deceased Falun Gong practitioners will continue to live through my painting. But I have no way to include some of the victims because they were killed before they were born to the world. Jiang Zemin had his henchmen kill pregnant Falun Gong practitioners and carry out forced abortions. Those unborn babies were also lives! But I was unable to paint these unborn lives!

According to incomplete statistics, since July 20, 1999, more than 1,260 practitioners have been verified as being tortured to death in China as of January 9, 2005. When I first came up with the idea of this painting, the number was less than 300. That was just the number of murdered Falun Gong practitioners whose names can be verified. The actual number of death is far larger than that! I wanted to present the happy faces of these people in a painting so that the audience can see how happy and kind they were when they were practicing Falun Gong. They were known as very kind employees and colleagues at work. I could not help crying as I thought more about what they were like when they were alive. Look at this painting. Some of them are still teenagers when they were killed. There is a touching story behind each face in this painting.

[edit on 12-9-2005 by Oct]

i2r.org...

I suggest CCP supporters read this article.

Originally posted by Tinkleflower


Perhaps if the countries in question would actually behave more civilly to it's citizens, AI wouldn't have so much reason to "bash".

That said, there are plenty of instances where nations are praised for overcoming certain issues and/or making progress; maybe you just didn't find those bits?

Maybe I'm a bit shortsighted, but can you show me an instance where the AI actually praises a country in its 2005 report..

There is not one thing new, or fascinating, or revelating in that article you posted. Those were things you have been harping for all the time I've been on this site.

Stop the nonsense, cut the crap.

China is its own soveriegn nation, with her own set of laws, culture and way of doing things, nothing you'll ever do on this site will ever change that. Give up.

As in Isaac Asimov's book when the Galactic Empire was collapsing there was nothing Seldon could do because it'ld take a force equal to the wills of the quatillions of people to change the path it was taking.

Unless you have a force of 1.3 billion at your side there is nothing you can do, true things could be better but they could've been alot worse. Get over it. Stop spouting your propoganda, all your going to accomplish is start a flame/propoganda war on ATS that will have no result. I at the very least read not just books from China but foreign books from the USA and England and other places, my facts are hardly all biased, and nor am I brainwashed your entire arguement is based on demonizing your opponents and claiming "omg You can't take them seriously because I claim their brainwashed!" that is utterly ridiculus and a # arguement, so unless you can argue better and not just like some kind of broken record I suggest you stop. The Red China scare is getting old and accomplishes nothing.

While there may be nothing 'new' in the article Oct posted, that doesn't mean that the Human Rights violations perpetrated by the CCP should just be ignored.

There are a few of us on this board who won't give up on wanting to see people allowed to practice their religion without fear of forced labour, reeducation, persecution and torture.

If the Chinese people truly want to build their country on the backs of those less fortunate than them and condone the atrocities that are commited against Christians, Buddhists, Falun Gong members and Muslims then they are not the honourable people that they like to portray themselves as being.

I've refused to believe that all Chinese people care so little for human life. Maybe I was wrong.

Okay, what about the Human Right's violations in the USA? Guatamalo Bay, that Iraqi Prison that I forget the name of etc... What about all those Muslims you arrest one sight? Ever watch a TV documenaty called "Strip Search"? It airs in Canada on the movie channel according my correspondants and apparently, your methods aren't so different from ours.

We don't persecute people just because of their religion, we persecute those who break the law or try to sow dissent and cause disorder, which even in your country the pertetrators are arrested.

We do honor human life, we considered the lives of children a blessing on the household and sacred.

But reality sets in, we have too many people and if we allowed sentimentality to get in the way of progress then how would we ever catch up in living standards? Maybe one day in the future, we'll repeal those laws when they are nolonger nessasary but for now they are allowing us to go forwards and we shall neither surrender or retreat in our resolve to strengthen the nation, to help our people or for that matter in our resolve to defend ourselves from foreign invasion.

And how to do that? We need a strong military and to have a strong military we need a strong economy and to have a strong economy we need the determination to d what is nessasary to build our economy and if it means we have to sacrifice the needs of the few for the needs of the many then we shall do that.

I think that the USA is starting to slide down a very slippery slope with the use of Gitmo. And I am appalled at the things that have occurred at Abu Gharib.

But this thread isn't about the US, it's about China. I'm sorry, but there is no way you can compare the treatment of the people in 'Reform through Labour' camps to anything the US does. At least the US isn't killing their own citizens by the hundreds, and making them produce goods to be sold on the international market under forced labour.

I haven't seen 'Strip Search', as I don't pay extra to get the movie channel. But it sounds like something I would be interested in seeing, so thank you for mentioning it. I will keep an eye out for it.

Canada doesn't run around arresting Muslims on sight. We currently have 5 or 6 people under Security Certificate here, and I am disgusted that we have even that many. I believe in innocent until proven guilty and the right to a fair trial.

To say that that people are not arrested in China because of their religion but for breaking the law is technically correct, I suppose. But the laws that they are breaking are designed to result in the arrest of anyone that doesn't practice an officially sanctioned religion, so that’s just a matter of semantics as far as I am concerned.

If we set aside the 'lawbreakers', what about the 1000 plus people who are currently residing in mental institutions because the CCP doesn't like their religion?

Building the economy based on products produced in prison camps is not a good idea. It puts other hard-working Chinese people at a disadvantage because they cannot compete with the camps. The goal should be to employ the average Chinese person, not the average Chinese prisoner. By employing people, you raise their standard of living. By working prisoners to death, the CCP harms the economy, the spirit and China's international reputation.

China has plenty of money to invest in their people, the CCP just chooses not to.

And I’m curious, who is China protecting itself from being invaded by? A country would have to be insane to try to take you on in your own country. The numbers are in your favour.

'Reform through Labour'. Do you mean the prisoners in China?
How many are they? 1 million , 2 million or 3 million?
Compared with the hundreds of millions of labors in cities they are nothing. To tell the truth, most labors in China are poor people from rural place but they are not prisoners.

In addition, the prisoners in China get paid. Although the paid is little at least they CAN AND SHOULD support their lives. To tell the truth , no Chinese people wish to spend their tax on the prisoners. Maybe it is the difference between Chinese culture and western one.

One more thing, I notice that in western countries many beggars are young people. Really shame on them since they have the ability to make a living themselves. In China most beggars are disalibities or very old people because Chinese believe "No paid, No gain". If you can understand it then you can understand why the prisoners in China MUST work.

I think only northern europen countries can talk about human rights.

Originally posted by Duzey
I think that the USA is starting to slide down a very slippery slope with the use of Gitmo. And I am appalled at the things that have occurred at Abu Gharib.

But this thread isn't about the US, it's about China. I'm sorry, but there is no way you can compare the treatment of the people in 'Reform through Labour' camps to anything the US does. At least the US isn't killing their own citizens by the hundreds, and making them produce goods to be sold on the international market under forced labour.

I haven't seen 'Strip Search', as I don't pay extra to get the movie channel. But it sounds like something I would be interested in seeing, so thank you for mentioning it. I will keep an eye out for it.

Canada doesn't run around arresting Muslims on sight. We currently have 5 or 6 people under Security Certificate here, and I am disgusted that we have even that many. I believe in innocent until proven guilty and the right to a fair trial.

To say that that people are not arrested in China because of their religion but for breaking the law is technically correct, I suppose. But the laws that they are breaking are designed to result in the arrest of anyone that doesn't practice an officially sanctioned religion, so that’s just a matter of semantics as far as I am concerned.

If we set aside the 'lawbreakers', what about the 1000 plus people who are currently residing in mental institutions because the CCP doesn't like their religion?

Building the economy based on products produced in prison camps is not a good idea. It puts other hard-working Chinese people at a disadvantage because they cannot compete with the camps. The goal should be to employ the average Chinese person, not the average Chinese prisoner. By employing people, you raise their standard of living. By working prisoners to death, the CCP harms the economy, the spirit and China's international reputation.

China has plenty of money to invest in their people, the CCP just chooses not to.

And I’m curious, who is China protecting itself from being invaded by? A country would have to be insane to try to take you on in your own country. The numbers are in your favour.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
If the people making the report would make a big deal out of it, it would get reported. Besides your not telling me Akhmed not getting his hot beans on time is more important than what happen and what is happening in china and all around the world.

The people who wrote this report worked hard and even put their lives at risk by providing the information they did. Do you know what is involved in making a report like this? In many countries, including China, membership in such organizations is an offense that can lead to execution for suspicion of treason or some such offense. Why don't you take a look at the government or media for not making a big deal of it, or better yet, make one yourself. Write to your congressman today.

-koji K.

Originally posted by google_abcd

One more thing, I notice that in western countries many beggars are young people. Really shame on them since they have the ability to make a living themselves.

You'll probably find that these young people don't find it as easy as them having "the ability to make a living themselves".

Many have mental illnesses.

Many are homeless (and if you've ever lived/worked in the US, it's virtually impossible to obtain work if you don't have a permanent address, and just as difficult to find a home if you're jobless. It's a vicious circle), some have been kicked out as teenagers, and some leave because they've escaped an abusive situation.

Not every beggar is there because he "deserves" to be there.

Originally posted by google_abcd
'Reform through Labour'. Do you mean the prisoners in China?
How many are they? 1 million , 2 million or 3 million?

Yes, I am talking about the prison labour/reeducation camps. The ones where they send the religious prisoners to be 'fixed'.

I think that there are somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million people in the prison system in China, for all sorts of reasons. I'm sure many of them are criminals just not the reporters and religious prisoners. I don't think non-violent political dissent should be an arrestable offense either.

Compared with the hundreds of millions of labors in cities they are nothing.

I can't dismiss people being forced to work in unsafe conditions for long hours in prison camps for no other reason that they worship in a manner the CCP does not like. To me, they are not 'nothing'.

In addition, the prisoners in China get paid. Although the paid is little at least they CAN AND SHOULD support their lives. To tell the truth , no Chinese people wish to spend their tax on the prisoners. Maybe it is the difference between Chinese culture and western one.

No, this is not a difference between Chinese and Western culture. In Western prisons there are low paying jobs. Many of the jobs try to provide training and skills to help the prisoners find a job when they get out. It also allows them to have some money to live on when they are released.

And most, if not all of us don't like having to pay to house criminals like murderers, rapists, etc. That's why most people don't mind that our prisoners work.

A difference between Chinese and Western culture, or so it seems, is that most Westerners think that putting people into prison to be reeducated through forced labour because of their religion is a pretty bad thing; while most of the Chinese people I have spoken to on the internet have no problem with it. The Chinese people I talk to in real life don't like religious persecution very much. Is this because they have become Westernized?

One more thing, I notice that in western countries many beggars are young people. Really shame on them since they have the ability to make a living themselves.

I have to agree with what Tinkleflower said about this. There may be a very small percentage of people that actually do prefer to live like that but most of the homeless did not want to end up that way.

In China most beggars are disalibities or very old people because Chinese believe "No paid, No gain".

I really don't know what to say to this. Do these old Chinese people not have family? Or has Chinese culture changed so much that your elders are no longer taken care of by their family? If they have no family, where is society, the government? I thought you were communist. Isn't taking care of everybody the whole point of it???

I think only northern europen countries can talk about human rights.

I most certainly disagree. I think Human Rights is an issue everyone should be talking about. I know I would love to hear more Chinese people talking about it.

I really do like having the opportunity to hear from a different Chinese perspective than the ones I normally get, but I just don't understand how it is possible for the people of China to care so little about this, to the point where many think it is a good idea. I really do try to understand the concept of religious persecution and torture as an acceptable practice but as hard as I try, it's just too foreign.

[edit on 15-9-2005 by Duzey]

You say this isn't about America's human rights violations, its about China's well geuss what you are a H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T (sp?) do not "bash" another country for doing things a certain way if your doing them to. End of story.

We are a Socialist Country and in Socialism there is no more need for religion because religion is a method of control, and in our past christian churches simply took the money away from the peasants and kept them for themselves. If we find that a particular church is doing wrong against the people then that Church must go. Privet worship is ok, but public worship that intefears with the lives of the hardworking worker's and peasants is unacceptable.

Also, Falun Gong, if it is a dangerous cult then we are in the right to ban it.

Originally posted by The Middle Kingdom
You say this isn't about America's human rights violations, its about China's well geuss what you are a H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T (sp?) do not "bash" another country for doing things a certain way if your doing them to. End of story.

I am not American. I am Canadian. And the Americans think we are socialists too.

Also, Falun Gong, if it is a dangerous cult then we are in the right to ban it.

It's not the banning I object so heartily too; it's the torture, forced labour, religious persectution and reeducation camps I have a problem with. Oh, and sticking them in mental hospitals. And it is not just Falun Gong. There are Christian, Muslims and Buddhists suffering the same fate.

Do you actually have any response to the points I have brought up, or is it just easier to deflect criticisms of the CCP, not China, by calling me a hypocrite?