Germany's Awesome Power.

Keep in mind that the reasons the Germans have made all the advances they did over the centuries is basically the very nature of the German themselves.

Germans have tenacity, work ethic, and the will for perfection in what they do.

The Romans couldn't defeat them; the Mongols were stopped by them; their ancient code of laws( according to Tacitus were admirable; Most of Eastern Europe ( before the 20th century), could speak at least minimal German; some of the most famous composers and operas came from Germany; modern medicine was brought to the forefront by the Germans; modern science was developed by the Germans; the Space program of the U.S. was developed by Germans; and German engineering is the top of the line.

That, in my opinion, is why the Germans advanced the way they did. When they have a call to do something, it is usually done with uncanny precision and accuracy.

Originally posted by WeBDeviL
Wodan...The U.S. was not involved at the end of WW2. Are you joking me?

1939 - 1945 = WW2 (some would argue a few years earlier, as well)

1941 - 1945 = U.S. involvement. Led: A) The most legendary invasion ever to liberate a country. B) Helped liberate over 5 countries. C) Helped save Britain from Germany during early involvement.

How is that "at the end" of the war? You are sadly mistaken, my friend.

-wD

USA didn't get involved in WW-II until 1942 and by then the war was half over and the Soviets had stopped the nazies and locked them into a war of attrition they could not easly win or get out off. Thus the germans were fixed, it only remained for the western alliance to recover from its thrashing in 1940 and establish a second front to topple the germans. So when the USA entered the war, the worse phase of the war was definately over.

AS long as the USA/Commonwealth could keep USSR supplied with money and LL, the USSR would tied the germans down and slowly march back across Europe to defeat Hitler. Funny thing is that politics of the 1930s hoped to have a strong germany to prevent the soviets from doing exactly what we wanted them to do 10 years later.


Be careful what you wish for, you may get it!

[edit on 1-7-2005 by psteel]

I am glad to see that some of you are up on your history. This is comforting as so few people I know are history buffs. I suppose this one facet , History , is what seperates many on these boards from the bulk of people in any nation. The knowlege of a good amount of history and some independent thinking to boot. Great going guys. I'm enjoying reading this thread.

I agree with the previous poster about the nature of Germans being somewhat different in that they have in thier very soul this tinkering meticulous mind to see a project to fruition. I do however wonder how much of this has been lost to rampant consumerism since the influence of Americans after WW2.

I would like to make a point that seems to have escaped many about Europe and particularly Germany. The history of Germany or even Europe prior to WW1 is not often spoken of next to the significance of it.
In Europe from the 1840 into the 1870s there was war going on then ...and continuing into WW1. The conflicts based on remembering olde losses and aimus between nations. This struggle took place before the 1900 in the form of the Iron Chancellor Otto Von Bismark..and others of the Prussian schools. Very pro German and looking for ways for Germany to industrialize and go out into the world to take her rightful place on the world stage against England and her allies who had sway over the trade routes and hence the natural resources needed for industrialization. The advent of WW1 and Kaiser Willy..is not new itself ..it is a continuation of efforts of those who came before Kaiser Willhelm. After Kaiser Willi...Adolph Hitler took his place to continue the struggle under new management and reiterated the mantra ...Lebensraum...the living room for Germany.
All this technology we like to tout as greatness of a nation did was to change the strategy and application of what these people were doing all along. It still does among nations today.
WW2 in the Orient began in the early 1930s with the invasion of Manchuria by Japan to get natural resources.

Also for the folks in the UK and other European countries...I will remind you that I am not a Anglophile though I enjoy reading English history especially that to do with the period of the English Civil war and the Purtan influences.
Britian has a long and rich history with much to be learned about geo politics by careful reading here.
I will also remind you folks..that siezing nations out from under others was also Englands ballywick long before the United States gained her influence. The acquisition of the Suez Canal is a prime example..having been originally a French project.
The British too were in the occupation of looting nations and keeping them downtroddened just as were the French. India and China and Britians history in handling this is a prime example. I chuckle sometimes when reading the history of peoples like Lord Clive ...Clive of India or Chinese Gordon.
Dont worry, however , most Americans are way to dumb and uniformed to reply to the rest of the world when they try to put a guilt trip on us for our conduct around the world. "Hey Dude,..how about those Washington Redskins???" Apprentice, Fear Factor, American Idol???

I dont put much stock in the title page of this board...Germanys Awsome Power. Germany just like other western nations will have a host of problems to overcome in the future. The main one coming up will be energy resources combined with the Muslim influences. You can make this argument for much of Europe not just Germany. Ask the French and people in the Netherlands.

Thanks for some great posts,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
[...]

I do however wonder how much of this has been lost to rampant consumerism since the influence of Americans after WW2.

[...]
Dont worry, however , most Americans are way to dumb and uniformed to reply to the rest of the world when they try to put a guilt trip on us for our conduct around the world. "Hey Dude,..how about those Washington Redskins???" Apprentice, Fear Factor, American Idol???

[...]

The thing is, the bashing on the general european stereotype of the "stupid american" is, at the bottom, little more than a hysterical outcry of fear to turn into that stereotype. Thats hwy many europeans on forum boards adapt to a policy of denouncing american posters as uneducated, and these in turn carry on to name all the wrongdoings in european politics and history.

(off topic: This "imported" consumerism has a huge impact on europes everyday life, because it is so appaling. The TV shows you name, and all similar phenomenons, have a huge success here, and especially the young population is appalled by it. Now what exactly is appalling? I read some very interesting texts on this (cant post links, it was on paper.... yes, the stuff that is made from trees and basically the biggest cultural difference is the american tencency to be extroverted with their emotions vs. the old european rules of manner and behaviour. /end off-topic)

Germans society was in something like a coma from the end of the war until the reunification. People rebuilt the country, cared for their families and their goals in life. That is the core of the phenomenon of Germanies rather quick development to a leading industrial nation. Only in recent years the german public began to actually care for Germanies position in the worlds power grid.

My point is that the past has been discussed over and over again. So far we wont come to any new conclusions. Although its good to have such a discussion now and then, a discussion where all of us can hug their soul and pride once and again (that definately sounds too pathetic), what I think should be of more interest is where Germany will go in the future with all the capabilities the people of this country share.

All this technology we like to tout as greatness of a nation did was to change the strategy and application of what these people were doing all along. It still does among nations today.

Can you please explain this sentence?

what I think should be of more interest is where Germany will go in the future with all the capabilities the people of this country share.

well... there are some interesting things going on now...


on one hand, I, as a 17 year old can see how the others in my age get more nationalist, more traditionalist, and are pretty against the "68er"(hippie/leftist-liberal) agenda of most of their parents, I see how the "68er" that rule, will soon get replaced by new national-conservatives, which want to solute our demographic problems by a better familiy policy for higher birth rates in favor to immigration, as the 68er's tried it, they want to stock up our military, get more soldiers, set a higher military budget, some of them even want own german aircraft carriers (as example Roland Koch wants this), they want to de-buerocratize germany and lowering the state influence in companys decisions, this was the biggest problem in the recent years, some international surveys say, germany is number five of the to-invest nations for big corporations, after china, russia, poland and another country, the good education, good engineers, good work ethic and the political stability are the main pro's, while buerocracy and high employee costs are the main contra's, if those two things change, as the national-conservatives want it to do, our nation can again get to a new economic-boom, I hope they will manage this properly, if it goes on with the 68er instead of the Jungkonservative agenda, our country will go down, it will maybe survive, but it will be an unimportant nation, and besides of the internatioanl unimportance it will also be internal a country in big troubles, especial on the living standards topic.

No problem there guy..glad to explain it to you .

quote:
All this technology we like to tout as greatness of a nation did was to change the strategy and application of what these people were doing all along. It still does among nations today.

The wars I mentioned going on in Europe in the 1840s and again in the 1870s ...out of these conflicts and olde hard feelings so to speak came for the Germans the Schileffan plan. As I recall it was made or put into effect in thinking circles about 1904/5. It was Germanys plan to break out and sieze what she thought was rightfully hers. All the technology did was to change the way the plan was instituted. For example Germanys plan depended heavily on railroads as they learned they could with careful planning move whole Armys quickly into positions verses the olde horse drawn calvary way. Everything down to the last button was put into place and very quickly too. Another classic adaptation of technology to the war plan was the U boat. The Germans were to go on to develope the U boat to a higher degree of developement while other nations were still going to the bathroom in crude trenchs so to speak. This lesson of the U boats obviously was not lost on the Germans by the time of the Second World War.
The French ..to counter concerns about the Germans going back several wars...came up with thier military plan called Plan 17. Once again from the French side Technology was used and incorporated into the concept. When you learn for example that before all these offensives of the first great war....it took the whole French economy working night and day to generate enough supplies/ordinance to sustain such a offensive..you see the role technology plays in wars and plans.

Wodan,
No doubt the technology is important in getting advantage..but it is also leadership...that makes a difference. Leadership in how to get the best advantage out of the technology...in war and peace. This history is often missing in the haste to glorify all this weaponry and certain peoples and nations.
Here in the USA..this has always been our greatest problem..Leadership. It still is a huge problem. Often our political leadership ...and also the Generals/Admirals are often chosen for political reasons ..not primarily for leadership qualities. This is very telling in our history when we go to war. The sad truth is that we as Americans because of poor leadership often get our behinds kicked up to our shoulders several times before we and our politicians catch on.
Germany too has had similar problems.

People will still want to go to war to achieve their objectives. The technology just changes the way they war.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I have no qualms with your second post.

I think these are things that Germany should be doing. America too. The bureacrats here tend to want to follow the European/international model and burden the public with great debt and weakening our currency in the process while keeping career bureaucrats in office to perpetuate these policys for political party gain. They are not to me..operating in the best intrest of the public..the party yes..but public no. This is a significant difference...the party and the public. Most Americans here are totally unawares of this concept.
To me the government should have less influence in private buisnesses than they do ..because politicians are way to dumb to run a buisness. If they were any good they would not be in government they would be in the private sector. This is just common sense all across the board.
I have no problem with Germany rebuilding her military. She is less and less under the protection of the Western nations who defeated her in WW2 and should take on more of this responsibility herself. Same with building up her industries...to rebuild ones military means that the industry must be there to do so..again common sense.

As to repopulating the nation ..yes I agree...this too is important if you want to even have a Germany anymore.
For Germany to survive what is coming Germany will have to take the bull by the horns and make differences useful to the German people ..not the career politicians who have obviously burdened the public to the point they are vulnurable today.
I know some about what you speak as my mothers side have relatives in Frankfurt AM and I hear the stories and how it upsets my relatives on that side of the ocean.

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom

I am having to think about your post to give a good reply without giving offense. If any offense is given it is not intended. When I get it together I will post.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by Uk_United
Britian has many problems now with Islamic communities and other indian communities.

- No we don't, stop exaggerating.

There are some problems (and usually from 'our own' trouble-making fascist nutter element, actually).......but nothing exceptionally out of the ordinary when set against the 'regular' saturday night/weekend disturbances we get in parts of our towns/cities from time to time.

Nowadays you cannot restrict immigration without being called racist.

- Sadly that is because far to many of those claiming to want to discuss this subject properly are coming from a racist and dreadfully uninformed point of view.

.......and how the hell can you talk about "Islamic communities and other indian communities!?"

What on earth has a Hindu, a Sikh, a Buddhist or a Jainist got to do with Islam and any Islamic 'problem' you imagine you see?

Here is the problem with this kind of ignorance; all or most of our immigrant population get lumped together and enveloped in whatever is the concern of the moment as if all foreigners/immigrants are 'problem' Islamics and Muslims.

Not forgetting the quietly slipped in notion that they remain just a homogeneous mass of *whatever* foreign/religious population as opposed to the actual and real assimilation that does go on.
An assimilation we know that causes the immigrant population real difficulties when trying to relate to 'back home'.

Don't you know any people with Asian roots to know the truth of this?

Muslims are a tiny minority in the UK (and no more than 10% in France where they are most numerous).

If 'we' choose to operate economic systems which deter 'our own' from having children then 'we' only have ourselves to blame.......and that has nothing to do with peoples of a different faith.


[edit on 2-7-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by Lonestar24
It wasnt the US involvement in WW2, it was the completely underestimation of Russia that decided the fate of the war.

Actually, Russia was not underestimated but some critical errors were made. If Hitler hadn't put such an emphasys on Stalingrad as a symbol because it carried Stalin's name and would have went for the USSR's oilfields, things might have looked different because of that alone. Also helpful would have been not to consider the Slavic people an inferior race. A lot of Russians initially cheered at the Nazis, which they saw as liberators from that horrible Stalin, until they found out the Nazis weren't much better either. Even some top Nazi generals complained about treating the Slavic people as inferior.

Suggest very much that you check out the sectarian nature of true Islam. Also check with the Fench and people of the Netherlands and the problems they have had with them. Remember ...like you said they are only 10 per cent of the French population.
Also suggest you check out closely what is or has happened in Algeria with the Muslims there.

Much of this is being deliberately kept out of the news media so as not to alarm a uninformed public who believes much of what the media and politicians/education system spout out.

Mark Gabriel.. "Islam and Terrorism" a short book written by a converted Muslim Imam with a PHD in Islamic studies from Al Azhar university in Cairo , Egypt.

To be fair to the Muslims ..most of them are not intrested in the radical type of Islam that so makes the news today. They just want to make a living for thier familys as do other peoples. This does not however deny the fact that the true nature of Islam is in fact all the things that westerners fear and are not taught by thier educational systems or politicians pandering to anyone for votes. It is just that the bulk of muslims to their credit do not practice true islam. When these radical clerics come to town they preach cajole and threaten these people into line. It is in fact a feudal dogma ...the non seperation of church and state. So many are totally ignorant of this facet.

I have no qualms with the Hindus ..but the hindus can much better speak from whence I do..for they have come into conflict over these same issues with the muslims.

This is why I say .the Europeans better take a reality check as to what is coming if they dont catch on. Check out what Mark Gabriel says about the three stages of takeover in Islam and then check out what happened in Algeria.

This is not fear mongering it is facts many of which are being deliberately kept out of the public view in the name of everyone getting along also known as ignorance is bliss.

Thanks,
Orangetom

was thinking about your post while doing some labors around my home.

I have no real qualms about europeans making remarks about stupid Americans as many of my fellow Americans to me are stupid in many arenas. They can do thier jobs alright but they know so little about history of any kind and tend to define their Americanism by what they and thier offspring consume..not by who they are or what they know outside the consumption arena. To me this is stupid. This is why I made those facitious statements about those television programs like American Idol, Apprentice, and the Gods of American sports ..football..the Redskins or whoever.
I hardly ever watch sports of any kind. Just not intrested in the Gods of sports. You can already surmise what I think of the bulk of television programming.
On the other hand...I am a Amercan...not a englishman ..or any other. I am not intrested in being Europeanized or any other internationalization that comes down the pipe. There are still those of us proud to be American and are not intrested in following any other way or bowing to the "international community" Its just the way we are. I do not think we are superior to any other country ..not at all..I just believe we in our American way are very different. I do know enough history to know why this is..contrary to the plight of most of what passes for American nowdays.
Picking on America is quite fashionable now days and with the changing climate of politics will be the fashion of the days to come. No problem. I will put up with it to a point ..then I will give it back if I feel so inclined with lots of salt.

Lonestar ..you know this stupid fingerprint they like to put on Americans. It has the same fingerprint that our internationalist political partys and media like to put on this sitting President. I am not particularly trying to defend this President but merely making a note of the stink that surrounds this "stupid American " label. Just something that occured to me awhile back.

Well Lonestar..now you know how I feel. That is just the way it is here. Not intended to give offense but it sometimes happens. Not intended olde man.

Have a good day and thanks,
Orangetom

The Germans are quite nice these days better than the war making countries of today they stay out of it and save money. The Germans have learned a lesson and should not be seen as Nazi's any more, this generation is OK and are a good role model, at least they save money staying out of wars. They are Good at sport too.

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Suggest very much that you check out the sectarian nature of true Islam.

- Sorry but that doesn't wash with me.
I've lived in Northern Ireland, I know the sectarian nature of so-called true Christianity too (both Roman Catholic and Protestant 'brands') when it is hi-jacked for political ends.

Religious extremists are just that, the extremists and not representitive of the whole (as you later acknowledge yourself).

Also suggest you check out closely what is or has happened in Algeria with the Muslims there.

- Alegeria has been a mess for decades, much of it French inspired.

Once again political extremists using religion have caused a lot of trouble - but they have also been met with an ultra repressive administration (which was perfectly happy and staggeringly cynical to infiltrate the Islamic groups and deliberately prompt them to terror against 'the ordinary Algerian people' on a grand scale to turn those same people against them.
It's a wild story.)

To be fair to the Muslims ..most of them are not intrested in the radical type of Islam that so makes the news today.

- Well exactly.

This does not however deny the fact that the true nature of Islam is in fact all the things that westerners fear and are not taught by thier educational systems or politicians pandering to anyone for votes. It is just that the bulk of muslims to their credit do not practice true islam.

- Oh come on; that's as relevant a 'standard' as holding western people to the letter of the Old Testament (or a particularly fundamentalist version of it) and calling that 'true Christianity'.

When these radical clerics come to town they preach cajole and threaten these people into line.

- Never been to an olde-stylee 'fire and brimstone' evangelical service......I see little difference in the intolerent hardliners, just the labels they use to carry their 'message'.

It is in fact a feudal dogma ...the non seperation of church and state. So many are totally ignorant of this facet.

- I don't see that as especially unique, afterall in the UK we have an official 'established ' religion where the C of E has Bishops etc in the House of Lords making and amending our laws from a religious perspective.

I have no qualms with the Hindus ..but the hindus can much better speak from whence I do..for they have come into conflict over these same issues with the muslims.

- Yes, sadly sectarianism is used for political ends in Asia too and we hear about the outbreaks every now and again.
(But the original point was simply lumping Indians in with Islamics when that is hardly representitive of all of Indias religious make-up)

This is why I say .the Europeans better take a reality check as to what is coming if they dont catch on. Check out what Mark Gabriel says about the three stages of takeover in Islam and then check out what happened in Algeria.

- Sorry but if anyone thinks Algeria is any kind of 'model' for Europe I think they are deluded.

Algeria is a specific French problem because of the historic French Empire and the mess their detachment was from it......it's also why France has the highest Muslim population in Europe.....but once again one can hardly call those Algerian Muslims that fled to France the fundamentalist type either.

But for all that take-over stuff to work you have to take the 'worst years' in terms of 'our' population growth and sustain them for several decades (with 'them' always at their peak for several decades).

It's a nonsense - pure number-play - and simply not bourne out by population growth - 'they' always end up declining over time to begin to match 'our' rates of growth.

.....and let's not forget that the 'they' is not a single mass of Islamic fundamentalists either, we, like everyone else, get immigrants from all over and the Immigrant population of the UK is most certainly not all Muslim.

This is not fear mongering it is facts many of which are being deliberately kept out of the public view in the name of everyone getting along also known as ignorance is bliss.

- There's a lot that doesn't make the front page but that doesn't mean it is being deliberately hidden.

I just see this as a none issue.
The Muslim populations are, almost everywhere in Europe, tiny.



[edit on 2-7-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Sminkeypinkey,

Are you aware that Islamic communities in London are lobbying for the right to have an all Islamic community and law to govern Islamic areas in london?

How do you explain this as not a problem?

Are you aware that the government doesn't 'dump' all these people of ethnic origin in groups? They choose where they stay and usually they flock to be together.

Are you aware that the Islamic communities in Europe have expressed a will to be independant?

Are you aware that the situation of Islamic immigration to the netherlands has become so bad that just under 50 percent of the population is now Islamic? Did you know that due to this all dutch restaurants and clothing stores are now going out of business?

If you haven't heard this either on the news or in the statistics then you should read up about it because I would regard these facts as a PROBLEM!

Originally posted by Uk_United
Are you aware that the government doesn't 'dump' all these people of ethnic origin in groups? They choose where they stay and usually they flock to be together.

Well if the choice is living near people who have the same beliefs and attitudes as you, or living somewhere you are going to be around people that have totally different beliefs, and might persecute you for being different, as is happening in many places, what do you THINK they're going to do.

Your'e obviously missing my point,

If that is the attitude of these ethnic peoples then why don't the government's of these countries do something about it!!!! Like restricting immigration!

Because the biggest reason they think that way is US. They think that way, because it's HAPPENING. There is a huge fight going on in Michigan I think it is, where a mosque is receiving threats almost daily because of the call to prayer every day. People think that church bells are appropriate, because they're "beautiful and musical" but the call to prayer is "disturbing and interupts their day". If we restrict immigration to people that only believe the same thing we do, then what does that say about us? The problem isn't about restricting immigration, it's about people growing up and accepting our differences, and realizing that people who are different can contribute as much to our society as we do, and will only make us stronger for it in the long run.

A lot of these immigrants want to get out of where they live for one reason or another. Several countries DO restrict immigration, but people still find ways to get out of them. Where are they supposed to go?

[edit on 2-7-2005 by Zaphod58]

Are you serious? Your'e on the page of "all races are great and we can all contribute to our societ and everyone can get along in a perfect multicultural society".

Well the real world isn't like that ok. The real world is full of money, economies, poverty, discrimination and injustice. The way we can make this bleak world a little better is to take action on problems we have now and not cover them up and blind ourselves by saying "everyone has the right to immigrate and we can all contribute to our society".

I' guessing now that some of you are thinking, "yeah well here is another typical British racist" the fact is I'm not I'm just expressing views that I have seen first hand.

If we don't restrict Immigration , and I'm not talking about restricting ethnics, I'[m talking about immigration in general. Then European countires will become swamped with a close division of beleifs and cultures that will cripple society not advance it.

I'll put you into a scenario, you live in a street with people you know and everythings great and prosperous. You own a butcher shop and you can earn enough to support yourself and your family. Your kids go to a public school and enjoy a good education.

10 years later a big immigration of Islamic and hindu people occurs. Your street becomes filled with these ethnics. Your butcher shop becomes broke since these people don't find the meat you sell to their liking since their from a different culture and background. Your street becomes a haven for religious conflict and arguments since the community now wants a mosque where there once used to be a park. The school in in an uproar and the rules have to be changed since ISlamic families want their kids to wear traditional uniform inside of schoola dn during school sports. Your kids become the minority since their are more Islamic and Hindu kids within the school.

Your family ends up moving to another country and many more join you. Then you become the exact same problem to the country you move to and the nightmare begins for other people.

Get my point?