Germany's Awesome Power.

Oh, and comparing German pilots to Allied pilots is rediculous. Almost ALL of the German pilots flew most or all of the war without a break. Allied pilots flew a set number of missions then were rotated out for a rest before going back to combat, or back to the rear for morale tours, and to sell war bonds. If they were to fly all of the war like German pilots did then some of the Allied pilots would have had 300+ kills too.

Well, you can never say allies had technlogical superiority in that war, face it, We only one because we outnumbered them so damn much, our forces were mincemeated by tigers, king tigers, panthers, MG42's, the whole lot.

That is true both the Germans and the Japanese kept flying their best pilots until they got sot down while the allies sent all of their best pilots back to train the new ones. Once we killed their good pilots they no one left.

ok as author of this thread I think it is my duty to put us back on track since everyone is now turning this into a classic debate on who won ww2.

Let me put us back on track. Wasn't it a monumental acheivement to show that Germany is a superior nation that it recovered from 2 world wars and is still today the world's thrid largest economy.

Also wasn't the German war machine the greatest of all time since they fought the world twice and nearly won!

Originally posted by WestPoint23
That is true both the Germans and the Japanese kept flying their best pilots until they got sot down while the allies sent all of their best pilots back to train the new ones. Once we killed their good pilots they no one left.

It begs the question of how effective were the later war US and UK designs if they were going against second, third, and even 4th rate pilots?

Originally posted by Uk_United
Also wasn't the German war machine the greatest of all time since they fought the world twice and nearly won!

No it is not. Nearly won is the key as in did not win.

Originally posted by Uk_United
ok as author of this thread I think it is my duty to put us back on track since everyone is now turning this into a classic debate on who won ww2.

Let me put us back on track. Wasn't it a monumental acheivement to show that Germany is a superior nation that it recovered from 2 world wars and is still today the world's thrid largest economy.

Also wasn't the German war machine the greatest of all time since they fought the world twice and nearly won!

I've just finished a history degree at university and a good whack of that covered WWI the years after and WWII. The Allied countries were in a total state as well as Germany. Britain was heavily in debt to the USA and still hasnt paid of WWI debt as it defaulted in the 1920s. Britain needed many years to recover from the effects of the WWI as it new the Nazi threat was all too real this however gave Germany time to recover and you need to remember that there was a major industrial and economic shift in power towards Germany. It had become stronger than UK in the couple of years prior to WWI.

Frances army was a total joke(nothing new there) and was lucky not to lose WWI almost straight away as it didnt think Germany would invade through Holland and had its own troops further south near Alsace-Lorraine, the territory it wanted back. Germany though far more technichally advanced messed up the Schleffen Plan by modifying it too much and not being able to get troops and supplies top the front line fast enough.

The Allies refused to weaken Germany too much after WWII eaither because it was against their best interests economically because they more or less could control what was happening there and use it to their advantage. France wanted the Rhineland to be seperate or for them to have it after WWI but this was refused.

Germanys total recovery though can been seen in other countries such as the countries of East and South East Asia after their economic collapse in 1997. These countries along with Germany still had the industrial and economic brains to help make the country recover quickly and as Germany was so economically strong before each war its no wonder it recovered as well as it did.

Actually, a lot of the later designs like the F4U, and P51 came into service early enough that there were still many 1st rate pilots flying. They came into service in late 1943 or early 1944 IIRC. Then they just improved upon them. The P51A wasn't a very good airplane, but the D was one of the best fighters of the war.

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by Uk_United
Also wasn't the German war machine the greatest of all time since they fought the world twice and nearly won!

No it is not. Nearly won is the key as in did not win.

I do believe Germany was the best army technically in both World Wars but key factors in tactics especially in WWII contributed heavily, in my view, to their defeat. In WWII Hitler wanted Italy onside as an allie so that it wasnt in Europe alone. However Italy was becoming increasingly frustrated at not being told of Germanys war plans and decided to invade the Balkans. Hitler then felt he had to help out here for Germanys long term good but this drew the Russians further into the war who wanted the Balkans for themselves. Thus the two pronged war was started and the beggining of the end for Germany.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Then they just improved upon them. The P51A wasn't a very good airplane, but the D was one of the best fighters of the war.

It was overrated to say the least. The P-38 was good at its job, but the main reason IMHO the P-51 gets so much press is that it was one of the first that could go with the bombers all the way and still have a meaningfull load to do some damage.

It couldn't have been ALL bad. The Tuskegee Airrmen used one to shoot down an ME-262 on their first mission over Berlin. That could NOT have been easy to do. My personal favorite though has always been and will always be the F4U.

Actually France;s Army wasn't a total joke. This I think is one of the most stereotypical and typical descriptions of the French Army. In ww1 France saved their country by using an all out attack which drove the Germans back, so they did great in that respect since Germany had an awesome forward advance in great numbers.

Also in ww2 Germany drove over 50 000 armoured vehicles [the biggest strike force the world had ever seen at that stage] through the ardennes forest. They surprised the allies and used superb blitzkreig tactics to beat france in 6 weeks. No offence but I garuntee if the French force was replaced with Americans, british, or Russians the Germans still would of taken France.

Originally posted by Uk_United
Actually France;s Army wasn't a total joke. This I think is one of the most stereotypical and typical descriptions of the French Army. In ww1 France saved their country by using an all out attack which drove the Germans back, so they did great in that respect since Germany had an awesome forward advance in great numbers.

Also in ww2 Germany drove over 50 000 armoured vehicles [the biggest strike force the world had ever seen at that stage] through the ardennes forest. They surprised the allies and used superb blitzkreig tactics to beat france in 6 weeks. No offence but I garuntee if the French force was replaced with Americans, british, or Russians the Germans still would of taken France.

Frances army was only saved in WWI by the Dutch wrecking their own rail network once the Germans invaded. This meanyt that Germany couldnt get troops and supplies to the front line fast enough and a stalemate broke out on the Western Front.

I have said earlier that Germany was by far the best technical army around at that time. It was the fact that it picked a fight with too many people that lead to its downfall.

In WWII the French Army did hold back the Germans for long enough to let the British escape at Dunkirk but this is one of very few times that the French army came to any use. Even in battles before WWI the French Army was shown for the joke it was on many an occasion.

So in saying that it proves my other point on how superior Germany was. You seem like you know what your'e talking about, and you have a uni degree. Im gonna try and milk you now since I wanna learn stuff....I'm 15 so I wanna get some good facts for later. Do you think Germany would of won ww1 if the US ddint enter? I mean they defeated Russia and had a whole new world of resources and land unlocked to them. Also they only needed to concentrate on one front. I heard that they pushed back the allies but they held on long enough till the Americans came.

I'm more impressed by countries like Switzerland that have had enough intelligence to not get themselves involved in wars. Germany squandered it's best minds on military projects and forced others to leave the country. The world would be a much nicer place today if they weren't so "powerful" and didn't waste their time building weapons. Germany would be an impressive nation if they weren't so aggressive, maybe now after so many defeats they have learnt their lesson. We can only hope because I'm beginning to like the image of a peaceful Germany that has good cars and beer for sale.

[edit on 1-7-2005 by Trent]

That's a good point Trent, however it's human nature if your powerful to abuse it. There hasn't been one superpower in the world who hasn't weilded their superiority in an aggressive manner. I'm sure if Switzerland was the size of Russia, had endless resources and manpower they would wage war lol.

Originally posted by Uk_United
you think Germany would of won ww1 if the US ddint enter? I mean they defeated Russia and had a whole new world of resources and land unlocked to them. Also they only needed to concentrate on one front. I heard that they pushed back the allies but they held on long enough till the Americans came.

The U.S. only entered The War because Germany kept sinking its ships in the Atlantic. USA was fairly neutrel as to what went on in Europe before then because it wasnt seen as their problem as it was too far away. So if the US ships kept supplying the Allies with supplies without any ship failing to get through then Germany would have lost quicker.

Germany you have to remember had very few natural resources within it and relied on materials from outside forces.

The Russian army at this time wasnt a strong army. The country collapsed in 1905 and was defeated by Japan at this time too. Russian was in a political turmoil too as many of its citizens wanted democracy. So entering WWI was a positive to get attention away from the wanting of democracy and the need for government change.

Germany and the Allies were too greedy for terriory in Europe and around the world for Germany to win WWI because it was impossible for Germany to gain land in Europe with out stepping on toes as the Russians wanted the Balkans. Germany couldnt go for South America because the US wanted that. The Far East was Russias interest and the pacific was France and Britains interest.


I've written a short essay on who was to blame for the cause of WWI which I could send you. It makes for a good read.

Originally posted by Trent
I'm more impressed by countries like Switzerland that have had enough intelligence to not get themselves involved in wars. Germany squandered it's best minds on military projects and forced others to leave the country. The world would be a much nicer place today if they weren't so "powerful" and didn't waste their time building weapons. Germany would be an impressive nation if they weren't so aggressive, maybe now after so many defeats they have learnt their lesson. We can only hope because I'm beginning to like the image of a peaceful Germany that has good cars and beer for sale.

[edit on 1-7-2005 by Trent]

I dont believe for one minute that Germany was to blame for the start of WWI. The mindset back in those days was to sort out conflict by war. It was the done thing. SOmebody did or wanted to do something you didnt like then you went to war with them. It just so happened that at this time many technological advances in weaponary came along and this merged with the ideal as long as there was a steady flow of troops going to the front line and the national flag was flying then war could be won lead to the bloody stalemate that was seen in the First World War.

Germany was a relatively new country and a very strong one at that and felt annoyed that all the territories around the world had been divvied up between the established countries. The established countries didnt like this new country coming up through the ranks because it was seen as a threat because there was a shift in power begging to happen.

Had countries got together and had a few talks then I truely believe WWI could have been avoided.

Well, everybody who is even little interested in the second world war know that germany was close to victory... And they were only defeated because of the fact that they were outnumbered and they were against three big and powerfull nations... The reasons why germany was so powerfull was that they were so andvanced technologily... they made new weapons and bombs that nobody had invented before... For inctanse the MP-44, wich was (one) the best weapon during the war... it could shoot fast and it was still accurate... And it is wery like the AK-47... And then of course the FG-42, a sniper with auto capabilities... And the MG-42 that could fire three times as fast as any of the allied guns (browning)... Well, we can only be happy that they lost... I would't like to have a leader like Hitler... Even if he was powerfull...

Originally posted by Figher Master FIN
Well, everybody who is even little interested in the second world war know that germany was close to victory... And they were only defeated because of the fact that they were outnumbered and they were against three big and powerfull nations... The reasons why germany was so powerfull was that they were so andvanced technologily... they made new weapons and bombs that nobody had invented before... For inctanse the MP-44, wich was (one) the best weapon during the war... it could shoot fast and it was still accurate... And it is wery like the AK-47... And then of course the FG-42, a sniper with auto capabilities... And the MG-42 that could fire three times as fast as any of the allied guns (browning)... Well, we can only be happy that they lost... I would't like to have a leader like Hitler... Even if he was powerfull...

Germany was technichally and industrially superior in both World Wars. They just picked too many fights with too many people. They were a spit in the wind on beating Albert Einstein and his freinds to splitting the atom. Thats the reason Albert Einstein got talked into making that weapon. He knew its destructive power and didnt want to make it at first but he was asked wether he would prefer the Allies discovered it or the Nazis who would probably use it on New York and London.