Creation, where is the evidence? I see none.

this is supposed to be 'creation, where's the evidence, i see none...' not is evolution a vaild theory. the reason why people on this thread are not trying to prove creationist theory is because, they think by shouting at darwin's theory that somehow it'll go away.

can we hear some arguements for the creationist theory... and some that you could actualy do tests on, find facts, evidence for and not just say 'god created everything...look its in the bible under genesis'.

Back to the topic, I would advise any possible theist argumentors to consider the following guidelines as to what constitutes creational "evidence" - this taken from an atheist forum with a similar thread. (That thread reached 43 pages...)

Originally posted by JKVisFX
Things that do NOT constitute credible evidence include the following:

Anecdotal Evince, [i.e.] hearsay. No matter how many people believe in something or swear something is true or really happened, if there are no means to independently verify what they say, all you are left with is, "Because I believe." or "I swear it really happened."

The Bible (or any holy book). The Bible, the K'ran, the Torah are all simply special cases of hearsay. They are nothing more than hearsay that has been written down. In the case of the Bible, it has already been shown to be woefully inaccurate scientifically and historically. It is painfully inconsistent and egregiously self contradictory. Further, tthere is substantial evidence that suggests it is, in fact, largely a fraud. (Ask me for details - Zipdot)

Appeals to Emotion. Sorry, we are talking about objective evidence, not emotions or feelings here.

Faith. Since faith is the belief in something in spite of the lack of supporting evidence or the existence of contradictory evidence for that something, using faith as evidence is self defeating. Just because one person or millions believe in a thing does not make that thing true.

Note: Since you theists are the ones making the claim, it is incumbent upon you to support your claim, not upon us to disprove it. Remember, you are the one making the positive assertion that your god [exists and created the universe -Zipdot].

This thread is just saying, "this seems unbelievable - prove it to me." There are tons of Christians on this board. Threads about evolution last 20+ pages here. Why is this thread so lacking?

Zip

-----------------------
THE RIDDLE OF EPICURUS
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

[edit on 7/12/2005 by Zipdot]

you just answered it... because there is no 'actual' evidence christians have that proves their creation theory.

Lets do this under scientific premise then.

Definition of theory: A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

Definition of Bible: The sacred book of Christianity, a collection of ancient writings including the books of both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Nowhere is the Bible ever refered to as theory. Its excepted period.
If any thing should be questioned, it should be the theory that we werent created and that we just were.

1: Propechies have been accurately fulfilled centuries later.

2: The Bible is philosophically consistent. Like no other historical document.

3: The chance of any one man fulfilling just eight prophecies has been
calculated by Peter W. Stoner in Science Speaks at 1 in
100,000,000,000,000,000

4:The Bible is also unique in its content. The Bible's perspective of
the universe, man's existence and man's origin is described from an
external observation point outside of the created dimension, which is
unique in religious works. John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17 and Hebrews 7:3
speak of God being above time and space. Job 26:7 speaks of God
suspending the earth in space: "he suspends the earth over nothing",
something that until modern times required an external viewpoint to
comprehend. The Bible alone among religious works clearly states that
time had a beginning. In Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the
heavens and the earth."

5:Scientific facts in the Bible are accurate far beyond human
knowledge of science at the time they were written. Scientific facts in
other religious writings are no where near as accurate. The Bible is
historically accurate as well. Archaeological discoveries substantiate
Bible accounts. Science supporting the Bible here.

6:The Bible stands alone among literature. Prophecies written hundreds
of years before an event have been fulfilled with 100% accuracy. There
are approximately 2500 prophecies in the Bible, 2000 of which already
have been completely fulfilled -- the remaining 500 speak of future
events.

Do I really need to go further or are you just going to go Darwinian on me?

The Bible was an inspired document. As I have listed above, there are somethings that man did not even know as a concept until science came along yet are listed from day one in the Bible.

While one can produce scientific writings and theories, they are only valid in becoming an axiom if they are proven true, beyond a doubt.
And it looks as though the Bible is correct on all counts. For the Bible and creation was here early and consistent. It is historicaly accurate on all counts and has yet, with all science and research, to be proven faulted.

Scientific theory is just that....Scientific theory. Until then, Ill take my Bible and creation. Its been right up till now, it will be right to the end.

Peace

[edit on 12-7-2005 by HIFIGUY]

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Okay, that sounds great. I like your approach - basically, you wrote a long post that can be summed up in one sentence - "HIFIGUY is going on blind faith."

I might be tempted by the fantastic promises of Christianity, but there's just one niggling problem that I can't seem to shake -

Jesus Never Existed.

There is no account of the historical Jesus on record. Not one.
Is there evidence in the Bible, or does the Bible point towards extra-Biblical evidence for Jesus? No.
Pick your Jesus. There were almost a dozen "messianic" Jesus-like figures named Jesus that were contemporaries of the New Testament Jesus. (Good place to start your study.)
Nazareth didn't exist until the second century, C.E.
Almost every facet of the New Testament is a rehashing of older writings and legends.
The Apostles never existed.

Soooo, in light of all of this evidence AGAINST Jesus and Christianity... Combined with the fact that there is no evidence FOR Jesus and Christianity... It may be "that time" in your life when you need to probe reality a little bit deeper. Of course, maybe it's not that time for you yet.

Zip

To add: I have NO idea where you got that "2000 prophecies in the Bible have been fulfilled" idea from (are we reading the same Bible?) but here is a list of 187 false prophecies, misquotes, and broken promises in the Bible.

Here's a site that critiques an inerrant guy's list of prophecies in the Bible.

EDIT: Re-reading your highly edited post, I'm going to respond to it later on in an itemized fashion. Until then, I would really like you to open your eyes and check out my above links. If you don't want to, that's fine, too, but I'd like you to.

Zip

[edit on 7/12/2005 by Zipdot]

old testament guy writes the messiah will be born of a virgin. new testament guy that never met jesus writes that this person was born of a virgin. so where are the facts and evidence supporting that mary was a virgin, jesus was born of a virgin, or that this prophecy even came true? ...none whatsoever.

Like I have stated before. Less then a year ago, I was in your arena.

I can do no more then explain my experiences, tell you that I am a man of science and technology, quite beyond most..

That mans existence and our mere being is a will of life that wasnt. Infinity and eternity are mighty large values in terms of time and space.
Evolution only handles then and now.

The Lord God handles then, now, and eternity. Infinity, destiny, eternity, and all aspects of time are addressed inscripture. For what reason? Because there is a reason. Not by blind faith, but by design for the blind to see that there is a plan.

It is not my mission of job to convert people. I am merely sharing in an effort to let you see what I have seen. For it was blind to me. I didint go to any church. I didnt have a bunch of born agains jamming religion down my throat. I was on my own. Alone. By my self. I went through a divorce. And thats when all these great things began to happen and God made himself known.

So humor me. Someday, when your walking outside, alone, so no one can see how stupid you think you are, talk out loud. Ask out loud. God, if your there, give me a sign. Help me to see. I dont believe in you. This guy on the net says your there....Help me to understand. Or whatever you want to say to let him hear you....

And see over a period of hours to days, that something will happen. Be looking.

Peace



[edit on 12-7-2005 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Like I have stated before. Less then a year ago, I was in your arena.

I have never met a truly committed and intelligent atheist that ever changed his mind and became a Christian. Taoist, maybe, but not Christian.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
That mans existence and our mere being is a will of life that wasnt. Infinity and eternity are mighty large values in terms of time and space.
Evolution only handles then and now.

So why Christianity? Why the Bible? I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Christ's people (if he indeed existed, which I believe is a matter of extreme debate), the Jewish people, don't believe he's the messiah. What do you know that his supposed contemporaries didn't?

The answers you seek can be found in modern philosophies, not ancient legends and fables.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
The Lord God handles then, now, and eternity. Infinity, destiny, eternity, and all aspects of time are addressed inscripture. For what reason? Because there is a reason. Not by blind faith, but by design for the blind to see that there is a plan.

I make my own plans. I expect nothing to happen to me after my death because I will be dead - like the definition of the word. Afterlives are for the afraid. I don't need to be guided by anyone or anything because I am a powerful independent being on this little piece of space dust we call home.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
It is not my mission of job to convert people. I am merely sharing in an effort to let you see what I have seen. For it was blind to me. I didint go to any church. I didnt have a bunch of born agains jamming religion down my throat. I was on my own. Alone. By my self. I went through a divorce. And thats when all these great things began to happen and God made himself known.

I've been in dire, stressful, and depressive situations myself. Who hasn't? I worked through them with what I had to work with. No signs from a God there. I'm a stronger person because of it.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
So humor me. Someday, when your walking outside, alone, so no one can see how stupid you think you are, talk out loud. Ask out loud. God, if your there, give me a sign. Help me to see. I dont believe in you. This guy on the net says your there....Help me to understand. Or whatever you want to say to let him hear you....

I've tried that, with no results, and I'm not doing it again because I think it's ridiculous. I was a Christian for a short time.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
And see over a period of hours to days, that something will happen. Be looking.

No dice.

Anyways, I have nothing to ask for - if I want or need something, I work towards the goal myself. Oldschool stylee.

Zip

For nearly 40 years of my life...I too have had nada. Nothing. Nothing that made sense to me in terms of God being in my life.

I dont have all the answers. I dont pretend to, and Im not tryinig to convert anyone.

When one is really down and out, and I mean really down, if you look, you may see. I said may. Two people look for a dropped quarter...one sees it, and the other doesnt. Doesnt mean it isnt there.

Man is born asking of nothing. In my estimation, it is better to have some hope, then no hope at all. Life may suprise you.

Peace

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
it is better to have some hope, then no hope at all.
Peace

so even if you're wrong about heaven and hell, god etc... who gives a rats ass because at least you had hope? ...ha, nice way of looking at it.

religious people are just afraid. they're are afraid of what will happen to them when they die so they dedicate themselves to the church and god. they are afraid to put one foot out of line and if they do they are the first to repent. scared, afraid, hope filled, faith driven humans are not what this planet needs, lets have some 'individuals', 'free-thinkers', and not so many sheep.

religion is for the weak, and the masses. look at the greek and egyptian gods that once ruled those civilisations, yet the civilisations and gods are no more. there is nothing special about christianity that will allow it to carry on for another 2000 years. as the years go by the concept of god becomes ridiculous. just by logic, free-thought and common sense you can come to the conclusion that evolution is more rational explanation of why we are here. we can already see the demise of the church, as church goers are at an all time low.

You see God as something to remain fearful of because you do not know Him.

Lets look at those egyptian / greek / babylonian gods and goddesses.
The nations are here but the idols do not have much of a following. (the greek olympics were dedicated to dionysis sp?).

The God of the bible has been around since the earliest recorded history. He is still going strong today.
2000 years? Hardly.
Closer to 4500

i dont think god is fearful. im not scared of dying. im not bothered. you are. christians are. christians go to church every week for a purpose...because they are fearful of god, and scared they are going to go to hell. if anyone is fearful of god then its christians. the god you speak of in the bible is not 4500 years old, its 1600 years old...that's when you religion and god were really created. even after jesus supposedly walked on this earth, it wasn't for another 400 years until someone decided to make a religion. why was this not immediate as this was the son of god, yet it took another 400 years to recognise this...i smell something...hang on....that's it... bulls**t.

expert999, i think we have already established that the bible alone is not proof, nor is quoting from it, so leave all that out next time! And for god sake, stop posting the same thing in every creation vs evolution thread!

First of all Gilgamesh is the earliest written story in world history, not the bible.

Creationist shout at Darwinism because they think that if the competing theory is removed then people have to accept their medievalism.

None of the creationists on this board have answered the question this thread asked.

How on eath do you take yourselves seriously? What stops you accepting the evident truth of evolution?

Why can the bible not be wrong? Why can an 'intellegent designer' not have used evolution to further his methods?

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Lets do this under scientific premise then.
The Bible was an inspired document. As I have listed above, there are somethings that man did not even know as a concept until science came along yet are listed from day one in the Bible.

While one can produce scientific writings and theories, they are only valid in becoming an axiom if they are proven true, beyond a doubt.
And it looks as though the Bible is correct on all counts. For the Bible and creation was here early and consistent. It is historicaly accurate on all counts and has yet, with all science and research, to be proven faulted.

Scientific theory is just that....Scientific theory. Until then, Ill take my Bible and creation. Its been right up till now, it will be right to the end.
End of Quote



The following are taken from the King James version of the Bible, available online at biblegateway.com...

Leviticus 11:6
And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.


Deuteronomy 14:7
Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you.






[edit on 14/7/2005 by christianpatrick]

Well, technically, they do... In a roundabout way...

Rabbits make two kinds of poopies. One for waste disposal and one that they snatch up as it exits the anus and re-digest it.

Zip

Originally posted by Zipdot
Well, technically, they do... In a roundabout way...

Rabbits make two kinds of poopies. One for waste disposal and one that they snatch up as it exits the anus and re-digest it.

Zip

I knew that someone was going to bring up scat.

First, Zipdot, this is not meant to slight you. You are only playing devil's advocate, pardon the expression.

The topic here and in the mirror discussion is biblical literalism, ie the bible says that the world was made in six 24 hr. days and the possibility of God using descriptive language to explain to ignorant bronze age goatherds how He used the laws of physics to make the world, in terms that they could understand, is not in the equation. 6 days is 6 days. Period. I was brought up southern baptist so I know what they believe.

(Said in my most fundamentalist Southern Baptist voice) The Bible tells us that the earth was without form, and void. And that God caused the land and water to separate.
Science tells us that the earth was originally a big ball of gas that condensed into solid minerals and water and other gases. Not the same thing at all. (/end my most fundamentalist Southern Baptist voice.)

It comes out the anus. That is not cud. That is poop.
Rabbits are not ruminants. They do not have multiple stomachs. They do not regurgitate food to chew it after the gastric juices have had the chance to to work on it. They do not chew the cud. They poop and then turn around and eat it up. Yum yum.

They are not the same.
That is the same argument that is used by people that otherwise say that the universe was created in six 24 hr. days about 6000 years ago. It's literal even if they have to jump through hoops by changing the meaning of words (chew the cud).

You can't have it both ways. Either the Bible was intended to be 100% literal or it was not. You can't say that some part was meant to be literal, six days, and that another part is descriptive, chew cud=eat poop.


I'm trying to cover all the bases here, answering arguments that no one has yet brought up.

Naturally there are people who call themselves christians who agree with my premise that Jehovah (if He exists) used descriptive language to explain to ignorant goatherds how He used the laws of physics, which He, by the way, authored, to do it. Big ball of gases=without form and void.

I pushed "send on the above post. Got the "too busy to use" message. Pushed again. Naturally it came up twice.


[edit on 14/7/2005 by christianpatrick]

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
How on eath do you take yourselves seriously? What stops you accepting the evident truth of evolution?

Why can the bible not be wrong? Why can an 'intellegent designer' not have used evolution to further his methods?

Ok, now we have something to discuss here! First off, I am from the Creationist camp. As to you first logical question in the bunch:

Why can an 'intellegent designer' not have used evolution to further his methods?

I personally think that is exactly how it worked. I think the Creator design all life on earth (and possibally else where), so that the life process would sustain itself through evolution. It is a logical concept to make life self-sustaining and evolving. My only point was really that the Creator stated the process and has the ability to inverene in it anytime he (or she) feels it is needed.

My Only real issue is with hard-core Darwinist, who seem to be saying: "God can't exist. Evolution started out of nothing and is the only life-creating force in the universe!"

My whole point for even Taking up this Argument was to say "Life didn't just 'appear' because of some random accident! It was design and created with a purpose." I hold fast to my spiritual beliefs, but I'm not blind to the facts.

What stops you accepting the evident truth of evolution?

As stated above, I do believe Evolution is very Real! I just don't believe that it was started by a chance event. I also don't believe it all had to have come from a single design. Just like when we creat things, we have different idea and they all develop over time. I think Darwin was brilliant in figuring out the process of evolution, he just didn't get every detail right! Nothing wrong with that. Many of the most brilliant ideas of science need some fine revision and fine tuning over time. Case in point:

Einstine's Theory of Relitivty: This is one of the most brilliant theories ever, however, when the microscopic world of quantum mechanics was discovered, his theories has to be revised to fit the new discoveries.

Why can the bible not be wrong?

It can be! Nothing and noone is 100% right 100% of the time! However, I don't think it's 100% wrong either! As they say: There is some truth behind every legend!

How on eath do you take yourselves seriously?

Hold on! This sounds a Hell of a lot like an implied insault! If you want this to be a serious debate that will further the mission of ATS and not a contest of insualts and bitter personal attacks, I seriously suggest you quit with the bitter and degrading attak tactics. This is how "Flame Wars" get started! (Spelling Note: earth has an "R" in it! You come across as being much more credible if you spell basic word correctly)

Tim