WTC Challenge

Originally posted by Hector
The basement blast came from the explosion in WTC 6. The base of the crater in that building was below ground level. This is why those in the basement levels experienced an explosion. This explosion also explains why WTC 7 was so heavily damaged in the south-west corner of the building. Also, flying super heated steal beams flew out of WTC 6 and hit the upper floors of the surrounding buildings and started the fires. The blast at WTC 6 occurred around 9:03 AM seconds after the second plane hit WTC 2. Jules Naudet has footage of the event.

So let me see If I have this right. You are claiming that an explosion occurred in the basement of WTC 6 right after the plane hit WTC 2.

That has to be the silliest claim yet.

So, no one else noticed this explosion except you, is that it?

Originally posted by aelphaeis_mangarae

if the gas tanks were mainly in the upper levels, why did WTC 7 collapse from the bottom? that's quite a contradiction don't you think?

If you watch the videos of WTC 7 collapsing you will see the first part of the building to collapse it the Pent house on top of the building.

Howard, If the fire on the lower levels of the building caused WTC 7 to collapse, why was the Pent house the first thing to collapse?

First of all, the fuel tanks were not on the upper levels. The majority of the fuel was underground, below the loading dock. Most of the generator sets had what are refered to as "day tanks" these are 50 to 150 gallon tanks built into the base of the generator tank to provide short term fuel in the event that the main fuel supply is cut off. Not all of the generators had day tank systems. Some of the generators ran off of a pressurized feed line from two tanks under the building. These tanks were known to be full on 9/11 but were found to be empty when they finally excavated down to that level.



As for the collapse sequence of WTC 7, the April '05 NIST briefing.

Originally posted by msdos464

Can anyone name ANY other modern building that has burned and fell within hours of a fire?

If that haven't happened before it doesn't mean it's impossible. There could be those fuel pipes that feeded local fires, and the structure of WTC7 allowed the collapse proceed sideways fast.

And there is a picture of WTC7:

Sorry I didn't find it in bigger scale. But you can see that there was very much smoke comming from several floors.

It took about 6.5 seconds to collapse.. width was 150 m.

s = ½at^2 so a = 2s/t^2 = 2*150m/(6.5s)^2 = 7,1 m/s^2 = 0.72g

So it wasn't freefall. Tell me if some values are incorrect.

WTC 7 collapse looked like controlled demolition, because the collapse started from bottom.

Actually, from the time the collapse started with the movement of the penthouse, to the start of the general collaspse of the entire buildng, about 8.2 seconds elapsed.

If it looks like a duck, flys like a duck, its a duck. Howard, there were, what 40 steel center support columns? How do you heat 40 steel columns so evenly that they all give way at the exact same time? It has to be exact or the buiding would tumble and not go straight into its own footprint. Doesnt anyone use common sense anymore? On top of that, I'll bet the sprinklers were going, most of the fuel went down the shaft of one tower, and the other it blew most of it outside.

This is so obvious it shouldnt even be debatable. When those building fell I said what the... I knew something was wrong. Then the next one then building 7 and I knew something was fishy.

Then the pentagon being hit after those two WTC events happening and still no Interceptors. If you cant smell a rat at this point must have whached to much TV growing up and never developed the abilty to have independent thought and must rely on television to tell you what happened.

[edit on 7-8-2005 by LoneGunMan]

LoneGunMan, are you a structural engineer?

If you are please provide calculations to back up your statements.

What are you basing that claim on?

Did you read this link?

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
If it looks like a duck, flys like a duck, its a duck. Howard, there were, what 40 steel center support columns? How do you heat 40 steel columns so evenly that they all give way at the exact same time? It has to be exact or the buiding would tumble and not go straight into its own footprint. Doesnt anyone use common sense anymore?

If you cant smell a rat at this point must have whached to much TV growing up and never developed the abilty to have independent thought and must rely on television to tell you what happened.

remember, howard is no idiot. he is a very well-informed and highly educated individual. he has no problem with independent thought.
rest assured that he ignores anything that doesn't jive with the lie, and is very skilled at the 'politics of persuasSION'.

oops. caps lock.

Q. How can you tell when a structural engineer is extroverted?

A. He looks at your shoes when he is talking to you rather than his own.


Back to arguing about neat structural collapse under a jet airliner, but NEVER mention the role of Controlled Demolition Inc, before during and after. Taboo subject for Bush administration sycophants.

I'm still looking for that report by a "completely independent" forensics lab stating that they
have thoroughly inspected numerous steel support members from each building and found absolutely no evidence of explosive residue.

Funny how a 7 billion dollar disposal contract to Controlled Demolition Inc.
keeps being overlooked.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Your whole theory goes right out the window with that one quote, or are you honestly trying to convince me that a collapsing building will make no sounds at all when it falls?

Since when does a building collapse sound like gun fire (unless its a controlled demo) then 3 BIG explosions.

What was it the firefighters said in the firehouse......

firefighter 1 - ...we made it outside, we made it about a block...

firefighter 2 - we made it at least two blocks and we started runnin' -- four by four, bam ba dam

firefighter 1 - It was as if they had detonators, detonate -- you know as if they were planed to take down a building, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

firefighter 2 - All the way down I was watchin' it and runnin'.

firefighter 3 - I just ran up with him.

firefighter 2 - And then you just saw this cloud of %#^& chasing you down the...

(...)

In all honesty I would tend to believe the word of firefighters who WERE IN the buildings THAT DAY.

It is obvious from that above quote that the so called explosions and bangs were nothing more than the sounds of the building collapsing.

It is obvious the above QUOTES (plural). That the explosions were actually planted explosives.

Oh, yes it does. Especially if your want to compare his opinions with those of scientists, engineers or explosives experts.

You comparing apples and oranges. Look. These people were in the buildings they know what they heard and they know what they felt. They say explosions.

NIST is saying fire. NOT JET FUEL. NIST is saying office fires caused all 47 columns in both towers to heat up within 1 hour and cause both buildings to fall with little or no resistance. And NO ONE knows exactly what brought down building 7 as quoted in the FEMA report.

So NIST spending three years researching and examining evidence is hasty?

3 years. What a shame they didn't have all the evidence. Shame that a crime scene that UNDER ALL LAWS says SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN REMOVED. It was a crime scene no more no less.

So if there were bombs going off while he was in the building, how did he make it out alive?

I don't know. How am I supposed to know?

~Peace ~

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Originally posted by Hector
The basement blast came from the explosion in WTC 6. The base of the crater in that building was below ground level. This is why those in the basement levels experienced an explosion. This explosion also explains why WTC 7 was so heavily damaged in the south-west corner of the building. Also, flying super heated steal beams flew out of WTC 6 and hit the upper floors of the surrounding buildings and started the fires. The blast at WTC 6 occurred around 9:03 AM seconds after the second plane hit WTC 2. Jules Naudet has footage of the event.

So let me see If I have this right. You are claiming that an explosion occurred in the basement of WTC 6 right after the plane hit WTC 2.

That has to be the silliest claim yet.

So, no one else noticed this explosion except you, is that it?

Actually, there were several persons who noticed the explosion at WTC 6. As you recall the crater at WTC 6 was below ground level so any person in this area--parking garage--would have experienced the blast.

Jules Naudet was the first to experience the blast since he filmed it. After filming the first plane crashing into WTC 1, he and the firemen rushed to the burning tower. Naudet got the footage of looking up at the base the burning tower and then to his left the second plane hits WTC 2. A second later he experiences the explosion from WTC 6 and is knocked to the ground with his camera. I have seen this footage several times before but until recently I did not understand the explosion that occurred on his right.

He and his brother sold their film to Gamma Press and they in turn sold the rights to use the film to CNN and Associated Press Television.

If you have access to non-US sources of news this coming September 11, then set your VCR and DVD recorders. You will likely see the Associated Press Television footage of this event.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by Hector]

Rodriguez asked Question *.mp3 1.0mb

I think this interview should clear up a few things about the explosion that took place BEFORE the plane hit the first tower.

~Peace ~

Originally posted by Hunting Veritas
Rodriguez asked Question *.mp3 1.0mb

I think this interview should clear up a few things about the explosion that took place BEFORE the plane hit the first tower.

~Peace

~

There is a discrepancy as to when William Rodriguez came to work that day. Do a search and you will find some say he was supposed to be at work 8:30 but arrived 30 minutes late. Others say he was to be at work at 8:00 but was 30 minutes late.

If he arrived around 9:00 AM then he would have experienced the second plane hitting WTC 2 and the explosion at WTC 6. He may have came to work via subway and did not know the first plane hit WTC 1 at 8:46 AM.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by Hector]

Originally posted by ANOK
NIST is a government agency.

No chance of any bias there

Do you really expect a government agency to come out and admit it was a controlled demolition?

If you do then you are really naive as far as how government does things.

Exactly....

That's like the DNA's office saying that there was no reason to re examine marilyn monroe for foul play even though there are holes in that too....

Government agencies unite under the umbrella of ' we have nothing to hide, but we're not going to prove it'

WTC 6. Notice the parts of WTC 1 on top of and against the remaining parts of the building. Also, it doesn’t take the imagination of a conspiracy theorist to see that the falling debris would have also hit WTC 7.

Another opinion on WTC 6

As for the significance that you are putting on “the crater” being below ground level, what do you expect? The WTC complex had numerous sub levels. Even the streets adjacent to the buildings were not really at the true “ground level.” If the collapsing debris punched all the way down to the lowest basement levels, it still would have been below “ground level.”




[edit on 8-8-2005 by HowardRoark]

Found this on www.serendipity.ptpi.net...
Two unexplained "spikes" in the seismic record from September 11 indicate huge bursts of energy shook the ground beneath the World Trade Center's twin towers — just as the buildings began to collapse.


American Free Press has learned of pools of "molten steel" found at the base of the collapsed twin towers weeks after the collapse. Although the energy source for these incredibly hot areas has yet to be explained, New York seismometers recorded huge bursts of energy, which caused unexplained seismic "spikes" at the beginning of each collapse. These spikes suggest that massive underground explosions may have literally knocked the towers off their foundations causing them to collapse.

"MOLTEN STEEL"

In the basements of the collapsed towers, where the 47 central support columns connected with the bedrock, hot spots of "literally molten steel" were discovered more than a month after the collapse. Such persistent and intense residual heat, 70 feet below the surface, could explain how these crucial structural supports failed.

Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, New York, told AFP that he saw pools of "literally molten steel" at the World Trade Center. Tully was contracted on September 11 to remove the debris from the site.

Tully called Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI) of Phoenix, Maryland, for consultation about removing the debris. CDI calls itself "the innovator and global leader in the controlled demolition and implosion of structures."

Loizeaux, who cleaned up the bombed Federal Building in Oklahoma City, arrived on the WTC site two days later and wrote the clean-up plan for the entire operation.

AFP asked Loizeaux about the report of molten steel on the site. "Yes," he said, "hot spots of molten steel in the basements." These incredibly hot areas were found "at the bottoms of the elevator shafts of the main towers, down seven [basement] levels," Loizeaux said. The molten steel was found "three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed," Loizeaux said. He said molten steel was also found at 7 WTC, which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon.

Construction steel has an extremely high melting point of about 2,800° Fahrenheit (1535° Celsius). Asked what could have caused such extreme heat, Tully said, "Think of the jet fuel."

Loizeaux told AFP that the steel-melting fires were fueled by "paper, carpet and other combustibles packed down the elevator shafts by the tower floors as they 'pancaked' into the basement."

Kerosene-based jet fuel, paper, or the other combustibles normally found in the towers, however, cannot generate the heat required to melt steel, especially in an oxygen-poor environment like a deep basement.

Eric Hufschmid, author of a book about the WTC collapse, Time for Painful Questions, told AFP that due to the lack of oxygen, paper and other combustibles packed down at the bottom of elevator shafts would probably be "a smoky smoldering pile."

Experts disagree that jet-fuel or paper could generate such heat. This is impossible, they say, because the maximum temperature that can be reached by hydrocarbons like jet-fuel, burning in air is 1520° F (825° C). Because the WTC fires were fuel rich (as evidenced by the thick black smoke) it is argued that they did not reach this upper limit of 825° C.

The hottest spots at the surface of the rubble, where abundant oxygen was available, were much cooler than the molten steel found in the basements. Five days after the collapse, on September 16, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) used an Airborne Visible/Infrared Imaging Spectrometer (AVIRIS) to locate and measure the site's hot spots. Dozens of hot spots were mapped, the hottest being in the east corner of the South Tower where a temperature of 1377° F (747° C) was recorded. This is, however, less than half as hot at the molten steel in the basement.

The foundations of the twin towers were 70 feet deep. At that level, 47 huge box columns, connected to the bedrock, supported the entire gravity load of the structures. The steel walls of these lower box columns were 4 inches thick.

CENTRAL COLUMNS SEVERED

Videos of the North Tower collapse show its communication mast falling first, indicating that the central support columns must have failed at the very beginning of the collapse. Loizeaux told AFP, "Everything went simultaneously."

"At 10:29 the entire top section of the North Tower had been severed from the base and began falling down," Hufschmid writes. "If the first event was the falling of a floor, how did that progress to the severing of hundreds of columns?"

Asked if the vertical support columns gave way before the connections between the floors and the columns, Ron Hamburger, a structural engineer with the FEMA assessment team said, "That's the $64,000 question."

Loizeaux said, "If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure."

SEISMIC "SPIKES"

Seismographs at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, New York, 21 miles north of the WTC, recorded strange seismic activity on September 11 that has still not been explained.

While the aircraft crashes caused minimal earth shaking, significant earthquakes with unusual spikes occurred at the beginning of each collapse. The Palisades seismic data recorded a 2.1 magnitude earthquake during the 10-second collapse of the South Tower at 9:59:04 and a 2.3 quake during the 8-second collapse of the North Tower at 10:28:31.

The Palisades seismic record shows that — as the collapses began — a huge seismic "spike" marked the moment the greatest energy went into the ground. The strongest jolts were all registered at the beginning of the collapses, well before the falling debris struck the earth. These unexplained "spikes" in the seismic data lend credence to the theory that massive explosions at the base of the towers caused the collapses.

A "sharp spike of short duration" is how seismologist Thorne Lay of Univ. of California at Santa Cruz told AFP an underground nuclear explosion appears on a seismograph.

The two unexplained spikes are more than twenty times the amplitude of the other seismic waves associated with the collapses and occurred in the East-West seismic recording as the buildings began to fall.

Lerner-Lam told AFP that a 10-fold increase in wave amplitude indicates a 100-fold increase in energy released. These "short-period surface waves," reflect "the interaction between the ground and the building foundation," according to a report from Columbia Earth Institute.

"The seismic effects of the collapses are comparable to the explosions at a gasoline tank farm near Newark on January 7, 1983," the Palisades Seismology Group reported on Sept. 14, 2001.

One of the seismologists, Won-Young Kim, told AFP that the Palisades seismographs register daily underground explosions from a quarry 20 miles away. These blasts are caused by 80,000 lbs. of ammonium nitrate and cause local earthquakes between Magnitude 1 and 2. Kim said the 1993 truck-bomb at the WTC did not register on the seismographs because it was "not coupled" to the ground.

Experts cannot explain why the seismic waves peaked before the towers hit the ground. Asked about these spikes seismologist Arthur Lerner-Lam, director of Columbia University's Center for Hazards and Risk Research told AFP, "This is an element of current research and discussion. It is still being investigated."

"Only a small fraction of the energy from the collapsing towers was converted into ground motion," Lerner-Lam said. "The ground shaking that resulted from the collapse of the towers was extremely small."

Last November, Lerner-Lam said, "During the collapse, most of the energy of the falling debris was absorbed by the towers and the neighboring structures, converting them into rubble and dust or causing other damage — but not causing significant ground shaking,"

Evidently, the energy source that shook the ground beneath the towers was many times more powerful than the total potential energy released by the falling mass of the huge towers.

TEST FOR EXPLOSIONS?

While steel is often tested for evidence of explosions, despite numerous eyewitness reports of explosions in the towers, the engineers involved in the FEMA-sponsored building assessment did no such tests.

Dr. W. Gene Corley, who investigated for the government the cause of the fire at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco and the Oklahoma City bombing, headed the FEMA-sponsored engineering assessment of the WTC collapse. Corley told AFP that while some tests had been done on the 80 pieces of steel saved from the site, he said he did not know about tests that show if an explosion had affected the steel. "I am not a metallurgist," he said.

SELLING THE EVIDENCE OVERSEAS


Much of the structural steel from the WTC was sold to Alan D. Ratner of Metal Management of Newark, New Jersey, and the New York-based company Hugo Neu Schnitzer East. Ratner, who heads the New Jersey branch of the Chicago-based company, quickly sold the WTC steel to overseas companies, reportedly selling more than 50,000 tons of steel to a Shanghai steel company known as Baosteel for $120 per ton. Ratner paid about $70 per ton for the steel.

Other shipments of steel from the WTC went to India and other Asian ports. Ratner came to Metal Management after spending years with a Sydney-based (Australia) metal trading firm known as SimsMetal.

If the fire brought down the towers, then why did firefighters that survived report that they heard bombs going off in the towers?

gimmefootball400, I see that you don’t post much here.

Please don’t C&P entire articles, especially when they have been extensively discussed (and completely debunked, BTW) in other threads, as well as this one. Thanks.



I will state this once and once only: There is NO seismic evidence of any explosions prior to the collapse.

The idea that there is, is apparently based on Christopher Bollyn’s inability to read and understand the data presented in the seismic chart. Whether this was intentional or accidental on his part has not been determined.

Originally posted by HowardRoark
gimmefootball400, I see that you don’t post much here.

Please don’t C&P entire articles, especially when they have been extensively discussed (and completely debunked, BTW) in other threads, as well as this one. Thanks.



I will state this once and once only: There is NO seismic evidence of any explosions prior to the collapse.

The idea that there is, is apparently based on Christopher Bollyn’s inability to read and understand the data presented in the seismic chart. Whether this was intentional or accidental on his part has not been determined.

if it has been "completely debunked", why are we still discussing it?

i hope we can at least agree that the whole dealings of that day went all wrong. why were the materials quickly halted away by a demolition company? (no one has spearheaded that question yet) and especially the same company that took care of the OKCB? things like that gets us out of the box, dare i say conscious thinkers, in a fritz for the blatant connect-the-dots tie in from another highly debated topic.

can we agree the govt. dropped the ball and allowed a lot of room for errors to occur for the official report to the public?

or do you truly believe they did the best they could after the fact and were extremely concerned on how the biggest tragedy on U.S. soil occurred and were focused on having the site deeply investigated to gain further knowledge of what happened?

Originally posted by Conspicuouz

if it has been "completely debunked", why are we still discussing it?

I am not discussing it. Gimmiefootball brought it up.

I don't care to rehash it. The siesmic "evidence" is a dead issue as far as I am concernerd.

Howard you opened this can of worms and you keep refering to a government report. That is like asking the accused to provide all the evidence. Why dont you answer some of the questions, like how the molten steel got there, why the steel was not held long enough to do a proper investigation. There is more investigation in a normal aircraft accident than the amount they did at WTC. How about the fact that the black boxes were never made public. Why after all of this finger pointing they do not provide the security footage from the pentagon, that would lay to rest a lot of speculation. They have every inch of a retail mall parking lot covered by camera, you dont think that the Pentagon lawn had every inch covered? Why did the airforce stand down and not intercept anything, even after hours of highjacked aircraft flying around, knowing that flight 77 was headed to DC, and they didnt scramble the F-16's sitting on the tarmac 15 miles away, that are there to protect the seat of the Fed Gov?

This whole thing is so obvious any real scrutiny would make it come down like a house of cards. I dont think you are a naive, so what is your motivation?

I swear typos most be a hobby of mine.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by LoneGunMan]

Originally posted by Hector

Originally posted by Hunting Veritas
Rodriguez asked Question *.mp3 1.0mb

I think this interview should clear up a few things about the explosion that took place BEFORE the plane hit the first tower.

~Peace

~

There is a discrepancy as to when William Rodriguez came to work that day. Do a search and you will find some say he was supposed to be at work 8:30 but arrived 30 minutes late. Others say he was to be at work at 8:00 but was 30 minutes late.

If he arrived around 9:00 AM then he would have experienced the second plane hitting WTC 2 and the explosion at WTC 6. He may have came to work via subway and did not know the first plane hit WTC 1 at 8:46 AM.

[edit on 8-8-2005 by Hector]

Alex jones show 27-06-05

Rodriguez normally gets to work at 8:00am - About 30mins into the show.

~Peace ~