How can the universe just "be"?

sorry



























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xxblackoctoberxx,

First off, thanks for posting that conclusive proof of life elsewhere in the universe. The Drake Equation is a scientifically-based theory, but it has two major flaws: it's only based upon our own experiences on earth, not in any other environment, and it is untestable. So until the scientific method can be applied to the Drake Equation, it is a conversation piece at best. I am, however, fully open to any other sources of evidence for life elsewhere in the universe that you may have.

Moving on, you seem to be looking for the answers to the deepest questions we as human beings can ask. That's great; honestly. It's always encouraging to see people thinking about the big picture. But you also claim not to believe in God and think it is ignorant to do so. I will not attack you for your beliefs, but I will encourage you to study the subject: go to the library and read up on Cosmology. There comes a point when you realize how perfect this universe is. You also realize that despite whatever popular theory that may be out there at the time to debunk creationism (big crunch, steady state: both of which have been proven incorrect; and now multiuniverses) that the beauty and perfection of the universe could only be contributed to a higher power--God.

Research the smartest Cosmologists and Physicists you know of. See what their take is. But in the end, it is your decision and your decision alone.

Originally posted by Jakko
Since we know that the universe, or life as we know it, was not always, the God "theory" sounds more likely to me.

We know that life as we know it (on earth) has not always existed, but we do not know the universe hasn't always existed. An eternal universe is consistent with the big bang. There is no starting point in time for the big bang, even though the age of the universe (in our current time frame) is bounded.

Further, you have no way of assessing probabilities of the existence of gods. They either exist or they don't.

[edit on 5-7-2005 by spamandham]

Actually, we do know that the universe has not always existed. This is the major breakthrough with the Big Bang theory. External universes are not consistent with the Big Bang--you are referring to 'M theory', which is based on String Theory; and String Theory is still in its infancy and has yet to produce any substantial, conclusive evidence to support its' claims.

The starting time of the universe is a bit more tricky. You are correct to say that there was no starting point in time--that is because the universe was created with time.


Might I recomend a good source: google

Originally posted by backtoreality
Actually, we do know that the universe has not always existed.

...
You are correct to say that there was no starting point in time--that is because the universe was created with time.

You do realize that these two statements contradict eachother don't you?

If time and the universe emerge simultaneously (which they are as best we can tell), then the universe has always existed. This is more than just semantics.

Originally posted by backtoreality
Might I recomend a good source: google

Sometimes, you actually have to think about things to understand them. The googlical can't do that part for you.

most people are incapable of grasping the concept that the universe just 'is'. however, the same concept is used for god, hence he didn't have a start or an end, he's always been here etc, just the same as energy has always been here and matter has always been here in the science way of looking at the universe.

the question shouldn't be who created the universe or who made all the stuff that's in the universe...but perhaps why is it all here?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
the question shouldn't be who created the universe or who made all the stuff that's in the universe...but perhaps why is it all here?

If you find an intelligible answer to that question, then you have merely pushed the quest for knowledge back one more step to the next question of "why".

Either there is an infinite regress of answers to the "why" questions, or something simply "is" without any external purpose.

It's natural to want to understand "how" and "why", but you should also realize that the questions assume an external cause/purpose. If there isn't any, then the hidden assumptions within such questions are unsound, and the questions become senseless as a result.

Originally posted by spamandham

Originally posted by backtoreality
Actually, we do know that the universe has not always existed.

...
You are correct to say that there was no starting point in time--that is because the universe was created with time.

You do realize that these two statements contradict eachother don't you?

If time and the universe emerge simultaneously (which they are as best we can tell), then the universe has always existed. This is more than just semantics.

I see what you are getting at spamandham, but I was referring to the OPs statements about Steady State. Seeing the situation through that theory would lead to a completely different interpretation of the nature of time.

I have a simple question for you backtoreality. Do you believe there is other life out in the universe besides us?

depends what you mean by life, or lifeform or intelligent life and so on. if life was brought to earth by a meteor, because that is how i think water came to be on earth, then surely others meteors could have landed on other planets too. i think there has to be some sort of life out there, yet it could be millions or billions of light years away, so we may never know. i think if there were any life out there that was more sophisticated and intelligent than us then i think they would have found our planet and made contact...so i think if there's life out there, then it won't be as intelligent as us.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i think if there were any life out there that was more sophisticated and intelligent than us then i think they would have found our planet and made contact...so i think if there's life out there, then it won't be as intelligent as us.

I wouldn't assume that. The argument might apply to our corner of this galaxy, but it starts to fall apart even just within the vast expanse we call the Milky Way. If intelligent life is rare, we might be the only intelligent life in the Milky Way (possibly the entire universe as well of course). And even if we're not, they may have no way to detect us or contact us unless there is a practical way to get past the light speed barrier.

Considering the vast distances between galaxies, it's hard to even imagine how any subluminal technology could span the distance.

The fact that we have not made contact may result from what we think we already know; there is no feasible way to punch through spacetime.

Originally posted by backtoreality
Actually, we do know that the universe has not always existed. This is the major breakthrough with the Big Bang theory. External universes are not consistent with the Big Bang--you are referring to 'M theory', which is based on String Theory; and String Theory is still in its infancy and has yet to produce any substantial, conclusive evidence to support its' claims.

The starting time of the universe is a bit more tricky. You are correct to say that there was no starting point in time--that is because the universe was created with time.

Excellent post.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
depends what you mean by life, or lifeform or intelligent life and so on.

I don't think it really matters if the life is intelligent or not. Not in this case anyways. Just the fact that there is.

And thanks for answering but I still want to hear backtoreality's answer.

[edit on 5-7-2005 by xxblackoctoberxx]

Maybe its just been there forever aint it possible that its just been there this whole time

Originally posted by xxblackoctoberxx
I have a simple question for you backtoreality. Do you believe there is other life out in the universe besides us?

I don't think my personal opinion is very important, but fair enough: I am almost convinced that their isn't; but again, just my personal opinion.

Let me finish this thought with a quote from a good man:

'There are two distinct possibilities: either we are alone in the Universe, or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.'
- Arthur C. Clarke

In order to "contribute" to your thread I needed to have more words haha but all i came here to say is VILAS RULES!

Q. How can the universe just "be"?


A. It depends what your definition of "is" is.

if one can believe that

the universe was created from nothing...and just " is "

one should more easily be able to believe there was an architect [ considering the delicate balance that exists ]

seems to be a logical conclusion [ to me ]

especially since, the natural order of things , appears to be chaos

as opposed to order

does your closet organize itself...or is some thinking needed about how it should be cleaned up and organized ?

the same goes for the universe, we see it as an ongoing perpetual motion machine....but that machine got put into
motion by a force we cannot understand , however , that fact hasn't stopped many brilliant scientists from
creative convincing explanations and conning people into thinking otherwise.


so, I don't think it can , " just be "...anymore than a can of coke, can "just be"

but hey , that's ;

" just me " FWIW....

Originally posted by toasted
if one can believe that

the universe was created from nothing...and just " is "

one should more easily be able to believe there was an architect [ considering the delicate balance that exists

I completely agree with that logic. The difference with me is that I would say it like this:
If one can believe God was not created, then why is it hard to believe that we (or the Universe) was not created.

Originally posted by Umbrax

If one can believe God was not created, then why is it hard to believe that we (or the Universe) was not created.

Isn't that kind of going against itself? The people who believe in god believe he created the universe. Haha i've read what you said like 20 times now, the wording is hard for my small brain. I dont know nevermind.. kind of.