How can the universe just "be"?

Originally posted by The Surrealist

So in other words to the 2nd from last sentnce everything is one, (Buddhism Philosofy) (Pain is mentle, accept it and know that it is just a fealing and it wont bother you)

Sort of.......think of each human as a part of the universe trying to see/sense itself......

[edit on 21-6-2005 by MemoryShock]

[edit on 21-6-2005 by MemoryShock]

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
And Paul Richards with your picking up conversations they couldn't know about, quantum physics saves the day again. Quantum physics says that in someway, which I'm not sure about, ESP can be a reality, so in a phase where the brain think it or is dying could it possible that such ESP powers could come out.

IMHO, quantum physics is an attempt to explain the principles of The Light. But Near Death Experiences are not the only manifestation of The Light. Those who have Gifts of the Spirit get those abilities from people on the Other Side who channel The Light. Then there is also what is referred to as an After Death Communication (ADC) whereby someone in the flesh receives a visitation from a loved one who has crossed over. The energy of those communications is The Light.

MemoryShock,

I love your signature quote!

It is very true.



[edit on 21-6-2005 by Paul_Richard]

Yes it is true........Roadscholar is very late for supper......

Oh......you mean the charachter quote......ahhh yes.....thanks!!!

[edit on 21-6-2005 by MemoryShock]

Originally posted by Xeven
I believe gas permiates from empty (motionless space without energy) space and is formed at the quantum level. I think space was just empty space, and gas particles just formed from quarks and such...vibrations(gravity?) so to speak formed gas out of nothingness.

There's lots more to your quote, but I'll just use the first section. I'm afraid that your theory is simply incorrect. The asumption that space was "just empty space, and gas particles just fromed from quarks and such..." assumes that there was something here before matter: empty space. The fact is, there was NOTHING here. Not time, not matter, not empty space, not even ALIENS.

Also, these mysterious "gas particles" than formed from quarks...well, quarks are matter too. So your theory would break down with the question, "Where did the quarks come from?".

It's nice that everyone has a theory about how the universe was created and has developed since then, but trust me when I say that the smartest people in the world are working on it. And, no offense to anyone, but I'll take the smartest person in the world's word (who also has spent years, maybe even decades working on this problem) over some person of the street's word any day.

How can the universe be?

Hm i think this is one of the hardest questions ever...we are moving on the terrain of philosophy here and im sure there were thousand people before our time who asked the same question. (And im sure there will be much more before someone finds an answer.)

I personally believe that all this around us and the whole universe exist for some certain cause. Nothing happens without a cause no matter if its a sun exploding or you are winnning a car in the lottery. I dont believe in luck or such things as i myself expirienced a lot of situtations that drove me in a certain direction which later turned out to fulfill something.

I believe that this whole existence serves a certain agenda. I have no idea what this agenda is or how mankind is involved into it or who started it in the first place. But im sure some day everything will open up like a gordian knot.

Try to think about it! Until today no one really knows what caused the developement of simple primates to humans. We also have no usefull function in the natural processes of this planet like animals...we are just here. And until today nobody really knows why.

Same goes for every soul on this planet...why are you here? what is the 'sense' of your life? Its the ultimate question and if someone finds it out someday i hope im still alive until this moment to hear it.

Well, if your asking where did the atoms and particles that make up everything came from, the theory I have heard is that sub-atomic particles can actually pop into existance, one second theres nothing, the next some quarks or positrons just pop in literally out of nowhere.

Originally posted by apc
spacetime (thats both space AND time) did not exist before the moment of creation.

A leading theory ATM is that of the higgs. It's very much in the dark, because we don't know very much (nearly nothing) about it, but it does seem like it's possible. A friend of mine spent a summer working on the higgs, trying to find it.

You can borrow energy if you give it back later, says quantum mechanics. So, there is nothing, physically nothing. Not even emptiness, no spacetime. Every once in a rare time, a particle+antiparticle is created, and they anihiliate. Every once on an unbelievably rare while, a higgs is created. A higgs boson has a higgs field, which can fluctuate randomly. It did. This happened over and over god knows how many times until that field got big enough and BAM universe is created.

Doesn't help much in terms of understanding, but it does try to answer where we came from.

That's right when you die (or your brain THINKS it is dying due to the proper conditions, as has been repeatedly demonstrated in the lab and in situ) you are tripping your ass off.

Sweet find, I had no idea.

I post, therefore I be

Originally posted by Amorymeltzer

Originally posted by apc
spacetime (thats both space AND time) did not exist before the moment of creation.

A leading theory ATM is that of the higgs. It's very much in the dark, because we don't know very much (nearly nothing) about it, but it does seem like it's possible. A friend of mine spent a summer working on the higgs, trying to find it.

You can borrow energy if you give it back later, says quantum mechanics. So, there is nothing, physically nothing. Not even emptiness, no spacetime. Every once in a rare time, a particle+antiparticle is created, and they anihiliate. Every once on an unbelievably rare while, a higgs is created. A higgs boson has a higgs field, which can fluctuate randomly. It did. This happened over and over god knows how many times until that field got big enough and BAM universe is created.

Doesn't help much in terms of understanding, but it does try to answer where we came from.

I just searched for the theory about higgs and what not.. .. way over my head, maybe i'll read into it more but it sounds complicated. =

Originally posted by iori_komei
Well, if your asking where did the atoms and particles that make up everything came from, the theory I have heard is that sub-atomic particles can actually pop into existance, one second theres nothing, the next some quarks or positrons just pop in literally out of nowhere.

That's crazy and a possible answer that works. Well all of these are possible answers, and thank you for all of them.

I read that there is a good theory, which in the 11th Dimension there is multiple Membranes Containing Possibly other universe in all sorts of shapes and sizes they think when one of these collides it was the energy that created the big bang, I think they call this the multiverse. This 11th Dimension is supposed explain why gravity is so weak as well. I am no physics guy I just like the ideas of the theories. This theory as give credence to Parallel Universes

But this is one of those things that both Quantum guys and Einstein Guys are starting to agree with being that the Quantum guys add the 11th dimension. (They used to swear by 10) But the math work supposedly.

Look Up Googel M-Theory

I looked and found a good show on it as well.

www.pbs.org...

Originally posted by ShiftTrio
I read that there is a good theory, which in the 11th Dimension there is multiple Membranes Containing Possibly other universe in all sorts of shapes and sizes they think when one of these collides it was the energy that created the big bang, I think they call this the multiverse. This 11th Dimension is supposed explain why gravity is so weak as well. I am no physics guy I just like the ideas of the theories. This theory as give credence to Parallel Universes

But this is one of those things that both Quantum guys and Einstein Guys are starting to agree with being that the Quantum guys add the 11th dimension. (They used to swear by 10) But the math work supposedly.

Look Up Googel M-Theory

I looked and found a good show on it as well.

www.pbs.org...

Yes the article I was reading that original theory in also had something about what you just described.. i think. It is called the Ekpyrotic Scenario and it says..

"Two nearly empty branes pull each other together. Each is conracting in a direction perpendicular to its motion. The branes collide, converting their kinetic energy into matter and radiation. This collision is the big bang. The branes rebound. They start expanding at a decelerating rate. Matter clumps into structures such as galaxy clusters. In the cyclic model, as the branes move apart, the attractive force between them slows down. Matter things out. The branes stop moving apart and start approaching each other. During the reversal each brane expands at an accelerated rate."

Basically what I get from that, which is probably wrong, is the creation and destruction of the universe is an ongoing cycle where the end of the universe will be a slow thinning of all matter until there is nothing then when these 2 membranes come back together yet another big bang will occur.

SO WHERE DO THESE (MEM)BRANES COME FROM???

Just to clarify, particles can pop into existance. E=mc^2. If you have enough energy mass can be created. A particle and its respective antiparticle. Used all over the place, but it's probably shown coolest at certain colliders. Take two particles (beams, really), shoot them at each other really fast, and if they hit just right they'll stop and a bunch of other particles appear.

Originally posted by iori_komei
Well, if your asking where did the atoms and particles that make up everything came from, the theory I have heard is that sub-atomic particles can actually pop into existance, one second theres nothing, the next some quarks or positrons just pop in literally out of nowhere.

Yes, that is verifiable science. However, as APC stated, there was nothing for sub-atomic particles to pop into. Creation was not the moment at which matter began to appear in the already-existing universe. It was the moment at which everything--space, time, light, matter, energy, etc, etc, etc--came into existence. (let that one percolate a bit).

It is a difficult concept in that it creates a paradox of sorts: how could everything come from absolutely nothing? Therein lies the inspiration for cosmologists and string theorists around the world.

BackToReality,

It could be that there was an empty void, a place with nothing in it, no matter, no energy, no atoms, no sub-atomic particles, no strings no nothing, and thana particle (or a few) just popped into existance, and started a chain reaction extremely fast, possibly even infinetly fast.



Another theorie could be that the universe has always existed, that there was no beginning and there might not be an ending, and it is always in the middle, dont ask me how that works, I heard it in a string theorie book, I believe it was Hyperspace, by Michio Kaku.
Both, the particles just popping into existance, and the universe always having existed make sense to me, in fact they could probably be intermixed to form one theorie.

Can you all see where I was coming from though? it just seems crazy to think that something could always be and have always been. I guess we will know someday, of a pre-big bang time at least, when the light(if there was any) from the big bang and before finally reaches us.

Originally posted by iori_komei
BackToReality,

It could be that there was an empty void, a place with nothing in it, no matter, no energy, no atoms, no sub-atomic particles, no strings no nothing, and thana particle (or a few) just popped into existance, and started a chain reaction extremely fast, possibly even infinetly fast.

No, it couldn't. You are attempting to claim that Spacetime has been around forever--or atleast long before matter. It is an extremely difficult condition to imagine, but before the universe there was NOTHING; not even time.

Another theorie could be that the universe has always existed, that there was no beginning and there might not be an ending, and it is always in the middle, dont ask me how that works, I heard it in a string theorie book, I believe it was Hyperspace, by Michio Kaku.
Both, the particles just popping into existance, and the universe always having existed make sense to me, in fact they could probably be intermixed to form one theorie.

Oh, you mean the 'Steady State Theory'. That one was thrown in the garbage can about 40 years ago. Quick recap here.

You admit to not understanding how it works, or even knowing it's name, but claim that to you it makes the most sense? I really don't understand why people are so quick to reject the fact the the universe, time, and everything in it had a beginning. Yes, there are major implications for that, but you can't deny the facts. Scientists not confortable with that idea have been proposing theories for decades to explain away those implications, yet as more evidence emerges they all get shot down.

Originally posted by backtoreality

...but before the universe there was NOTHING; not even time.

How can that be though, to have matter or the universe or whatever eventually just pop into existence or whatever it did wouldn't there have to be time? Or did time just start as soon as the first whatever appeared? Maybe you are right though and it's to much for me to comprehend.

i say 'whatever' way too much

[edit on 22-6-2005 by xxblackoctoberxx]

Maybe you are right though and it's to much for me to comprehend.

You just hit it on the head.
Far too much for anyone to comprehend. Our brains just dont work that way. We work spacially and temporally.. outside of this we can only understand by reducing the subject to perceivable terms.. which inherently loses nearly all meaning so no matter what we may contemplate about our idea of "before the universe" what we would call factors would exist so far beyond us there is simply no point in even trying to define them.

> I should integrate the subject of String Theory into this statement as you brought up you have read of it. One of the pitfalls is that only a few aspects can ever be tested in a laboratory.. mainly those of manipulating the vibration of local particles. The idea of 11 dimensions and colliding membranes is a result of the math needed to fit the predictions and results.




[edit on 22-6-2005 by apc]

Originally posted by xxblackoctoberxx
I was reading some theory about the creation of the universe and i noticed in a lot of these theories it doesn't give much explanation to where everything came from. They always just start off with 'well, the universe has been around forever..' well if energy cannot come out of nothing how did the universe come to be in the first place.

I think you're missing the point. If the universe has always been, then it couldn't have come from anything. These are contradictory ideas.

I'll present a few choices that i think forms a complete set and see if you find any of them appealing:

1. The universe has always existed in some sense.
2. Something else has always existed in some sense, that is in some sense responsible for the existence of the universe, which may or may not have always existed in parallel.
3. Something can in fact come from nothing.

Now that we have that out of the way, I'd like to suggest a possible answer that I think fits with our knowledge of the universe.

Imagine that it's the 'end of time', when all matter has decomposed into energy and there is no longer any usefull energy in the universe (for the sake of this thought experiment, the universe is assumed to be closed from an energy perspective). As you know, photons are probabilistic. At any given time, there is a nonzero probability that a given photon could exist at any given place in the universe. There is then also a nonzero probability that the two most distant photons in the universe could instantly find themselves colocated (from their perspective). The odds of that happening are incredibly small, but nonzero. Now extend that to three, four, a thousand, 10^100^100^100, etc, until you've calculated the odds that all the photons in a maximum entropy universe were to come together simultaneously. What would be the odds of that? Unimaginably small. I don't think there is enough space for the 10^ symbols to represent such a small probability within the universe at any given time. But if it did happen, would it look like a "big bang" a few billion years later?

So the odds of that happening are so absurdly rediculously outrageously stupidly small that we shoudn't even discuss it right?

Hmmm, ok so we know the odds of that happening at any given time are unimaginably small, but what if we allow for a period of time, say maybe a year. Great, the odds are dramatically higher, but still so small that we can't even imagine it. Ok, so let's make it 2 years, or 3 years. Better yet, how about 1000 years or maybe 10^100^100^100 years. Ok, let's go nuts and say there is no time limit at all. Infinite time is allowed for this event to happen. Now what are the odds that it would happen?

100%.

(Just to add to the fun, the entire process would continue an infinite number of times)

Is that what happened? No-one knows of course.

"Why" implicitly presumes there is a satisfactory answer.

Originally posted by xxblackoctoberxx
Can you all see where I was coming from though? it just seems crazy to think that something could always be and have always been. I guess we will know someday, of a pre-big bang time at least, when the light(if there was any) from the big bang and before finally reaches us.

Yes, but the light has already reached us. It's been with us all along, of course, considering our part of the universe was right there with the rest of it at the beginning.

The "light" you refer to is today sometimes called the cosmic background radiation. It has been red-shifted completely out of the visible spectrum because of the expansion of the universe.

The discovery of the cosmic background radiation, which was predicted by big bang theorists, sounded the death-knell for the steady state theory.

Harte