Knights of Columbus creepy ceremony

I have no idea where he gets all this nonsense, but that is what it is, a lot of nonsense. No sense in arguing with him because he's pretty set in his ways.

As a 4th degree member of the Knights of Columbus, I'm proud of my order, and know exactly where it comes from, I don't need an outsider to my order telling me a whole load of BS about it.

"OH THE HUMANITY"....

The Dove in the pic you showed is similar to a dove coming in to land.

However, the symbolic dove is either shown flying pointed up,, representing the creative (Mother Nature) aspect, while the dove pointed down represents the destructive balance that is required.

How a Dove equals a Ghost that is holy, I do not know, and cannot begin to see how it was not borrowed from Pagan Goddess worship. It seems to obvious in retrospect to even consider more naive proposals. I mean, the Dove with the light shining out behind its head, that is idol worship, nothing more.

And as for why are all these places named after a Goddess, well, its because she is known as the Veiled Goddess. Hence all the indirect reference, you see, to Doves, and the District of Columbia, etc.

And Nygdan, electricity and the New World were not discovered as advertised.

Sorry.

The following is a rebuttle written by my friend Andrew, who read this thread.

Akilles:



Your argument about Coulomb’s law has extremely nothing to do with Columbus. To say otherwise would be to say that John turns when peops call out the name Francine. It just wouldn’t happen. The surname Coulomb is not Columbus. Regardless of the name: To use that argument would be to say that all electricians and all peops who work with electronics worship this “goddess” of whom you speak. Since you so adamantly depend on the name Columbus, let’s discuss that for a bit.



Indeed Columbus may not have been the exact spelling of his name, and perhaps he was not Italian, but the name, “Columbus”, as he would have been called by the Italians, is so blatantly Latin. Catholics have a new pope. He chose the name, Benedict XVI. Oops. That’s the English form. In Latin, it is Benedictus XVI. Oops. I got it wrong again. The true Latin alphabet has no letter, “u”. Instead it should be Benedictvs XVI. So, more than likely, the Italians back in his day knew Columbus as Colvmbvs. And yes, depending on what language you’re speaking, you’ll probably spell and pronounce the name slightly different. Just as the names Sean and John are the exact same name, just in different languages. The English form of Columbus’s name was derived from the Latin form; as is the English form of the name Jesus (from Latin, Jesvs). However, peops in His day did not call Him Jesus; they called him by His Aramaic name. The Romans perhaps called Him Jesvs. At any rate, it doesn’t matter in which language you write or speak a name, it has the same meaning. It is the same person.



You also mentioned that Columbus chose for himself the name of Christopher. Christopher, means Carrier of Christ. Catholics all take a name at Confirmation. This name is that of a Saint on whose life they desire to model their own. Christopher Columbus followed through with this desire, as he brought Christ to America.



This whole matter of predestination of which you speak is flawed. America was not predestined to be discovered. Columbus and his crew almost turned back. Despite the threat of mutiny, Columbus pushed on and managed to convince his men to push on just a little further. Each person involved was a wholly free agent in the universe. To say otherwise is to say that none of us has power over our own decisions. Indeed it says that there is no such thing as a decision; that we are all just pre-programmed beings with no variables. That seems all rather pointless. We all have freedom to choose as given to us by God.



All that said; let us now discuss how you think that Catholics worship a goddess named, Mary. This is completely false. First off, Mary, the Virgin Mother of Christ is in no way a goddess, and Catholics neither see her nor worship her as such. We honour, revere and adore Mary. She was chosen by God to bear His only Begotten Son. Wow! She must be one special lady. In fact, Mary is the perfect woman: perfect in the sense that she was born without original sin, and lived her life completely without sin. Wow! Double-wow! We know without a single inkling of a doubt that Mary is in Heaven with God. It is a common misconception that Catholics pray to Mary. This is not so. We do not pray to Mary, however; we ask for Mary to pray for us, directly to God. When someone is sick, we pray for them. The more peops praying, the better, right? Who better to pray for you than Mary, who is in Heaven with God? Look at it this way. If you need to ask the CEO of your company for something, you don’t go down the custodian; instead you go as high up as you can. Lucky for us, God has the ultimate open-door policy. You can get in touch with him anytime you want. What about the times between your prayers? Wouldn’t it be nice to know that someone is continuing your prayers on your behalf? That is exactly what Mary does. Another way to look at it is from the perspective of someone seeking employment. Sure, it’s all fine and dandy to submit your CV and cover letter, and wait to hear from the employer. It is so much better to have someone who knows you and works for the company putting in good words for you here, there, and everywhere within the organization.



On the subject of the symbol of the Holy Spirit actually being a pagan symbol for some sort of destroyer goddess: The dove has long been used as the symbol for the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost; in Latin, “Sancte Spiritvs.” Specifically, the position of the dove (facing down) in the symbol for the 4th degree Knights of Columbus is representative of the descent of the Holy Spirit; much like that during Pentecost.



Now, on the original topic of this thread: the membership ceremonies for the Knights of Columbus are scary in what you learn about yourself. The realizations about your self are scary: Completely true, but nonetheless, scary. Scary, then is not intended to mean frightening, but more than likely awe-inspiring and awakening. The secrecy is required in order to effectively convey these important lessons onto new Knights. Knowing before-hand what was to transpire would not allow for the lesson to be as effective. [edit by Chief_Counsellor]



Pax et bonvm.

Originally posted by akilles
However, the symbolic dove is either shown flying pointed up,, representing the creative (Mother Nature) aspect, while the dove pointed down represents the destructive balance that is required.

Granted, it can be interpreted either way. However, I think that the history of the usage as a landing dove, and especially in chief_counsellor's avatar (below for reference) indicates that it is what it is claimed to be, the Holy Spirit descending to the earth.
external image

How a Dove equals a Ghost that is holy, I do not know, and cannot begin to see how it was not borrowed from Pagan Goddess worship

It might very well have been. I don't know of any biblical description of the holy ghost being represented by a dove. And a pretty bird can certainly be thought of as appealing to goddess worship. Of course, using the dove doesn't mean that one is engaging in goddess worship, not for the first people to make the dove the symbol, nor especially for the moderns who made up the KofC

well, its because she is known as the Veiled Goddess. Hence all the indirect reference, you see, to Doves, and the District of Columbia, etc.

I really have to insist, the idea that "columbia" in DC or even 'Columbus' ohio is a reference to a goddess "Columbia", who never existed, instead of christopher columbus, doesn't make sense. Surely the people who called it that were thinking of Christopher COlumbus, even if thats a technically incorrect vulgarization of his name, or even if someone made him change his name to it.

electricity and the New World were not discovered as advertised.

I understand that you are saying that the situation, at least with respect to electricity and columb, doesn't make sense. I mean, are you suggesting that 'they' knew about electricity, and waited for a guy named Columb to come along and start rearching it and then gave it to him?? Or are you suggesting something else??

andrew, via cheif
is representative of the descent of the Holy Spirit; much like that during Pentecost.

Fair enough, but I think that the question is why a dove, rather than any number of reasonable representations. I think that the arguement that it has something to do with the 'old goddess', often strongly associated with birds, is decent, but the exact nature of the intention is questionable. I mean, the choice of a dove could've been chosen to appeal to the pagan europeans when they were first converted, who'd recognize it as a powerful symbol of their own, I don't think anyone disputes that that sort of thing went on (wrt patron saints having shrines on the spot of pagan gods who were patrons of the very same things, and the like). Of course, it might be as simple as that the dove is a pretty bird, a spirit is reasonably represented by a flying bird, and the dove is a natural, bening, and pretty enough choice.

I do have to wonder at the knight of Columbus having a Columbiforme bird as a big symbol of theirs tho. True enouhg, it'd make sense for a christian group to have this recognized symbol of the holy ghost. But surely the guys who made up the KofC recognized that the dove is a columbiforme and that had something to do with choosing it over a cross, or a purple robe, or a crown of thorns or even the arma christae or any of their choice of sensible christian symbols.

Its not too late to change it, guys. Call yourself Willing members of the Colon Club, and we are all good. But to call yourself Knights for some Goddess, come on now.

Haven't we played long enough?

Get your friend Andrew to register next time. Every one else has to. I don't see why he should get away with posting without any possibility of being held responsible.

It is quite clear that Columba is representative of the Veiled Goddess. We have seen this illustrated with the logo of Columbia Pictures, and we have seen it in the Pope's coat of arms (three different symbols of ancient Goddess worship, the Pagan bear, the crowned Nubian, and the 'shell')

We have found evidence in the naming of electrical current, even though it was onl re-discovered. I guess thats why it had to be 're-named', that is, after something that already existed.

Perhaps his father changed their family name, perhaps the grandfather, but yes, I am suggesting that it was agreed that electricity would be named after the Goddess, but they would be allowed to take the 'personal glory' in her name, as it were.

And as for the "We don't pray to Mary." Wow. I swear, I stopped reading. Or thinking, can't remember which. Hail Mary, any one? Hail who else now? No one? Alright.

"We ask Mary to pray for us", right... So basically, repeat after me, tell God what I told you? IE. you are talking to her as if she is God!

Originally posted by akilles

"We ask Mary to pray for us", right... So basically, repeat after me, tell God what I told you? IE. you are talking to her as if she is God!

I suppose you've never asked a friend or a relative to pray for you, huh?

Why can't one ask the Saints to pray for them as well?

Just asking. Not that I think it'll sway you, but it might make some of the others think a little...

Originally posted by akilles
Its not too late to change it, guys. Call yourself Willing members of the Colon Club, and we are all good. But to call yourself Knights for some Goddess, come on now.
...
"We ask Mary to pray for us", right... So basically, repeat after me, tell God what I told you? IE. you are talking to her as if she is God!

Akilles, tell me something: DO YOU EVEN READ OTHER PEOPLE'S REPLIES TO YOUR POSTS!?!?!? It almost seems like youre incapable of understanding anything that does not fit into your preconceived notions. You sure are a great debater!

Originally posted by sebatwerk
It almost seems like youre incapable of understanding anything that does not fit into your preconceived notions.

Sebatwerk, it is fact that ''The Knights of the Columbia(Goddess)'', have been around a while and are not some ATS posters "Preconceived Notions".

I also dont think ATS posters go around deciding the Symbolic name to represent electricity, either.


[edit on 25-5-2005 by ThePunisher]

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Guys, stick to the topic matter, ie the KoC initiation and symbology.

Originally posted by akilles
Its not too late to change it, guys. Call yourself Willing members of the Colon Club,

Ha. Nice, they can make their symbol a bran plant or something!

Get your friend Andrew to register next time. Every one else has to. I don't see why he should get away with posting without any possibility of being held responsible.

Good point. Its alright that he posted it once for his friend, but he should register if he wants to get involved in a converstation.

It is quite clear that Columba is representative of the Veiled Goddess.

I don't think that she can be said to be much more than just a rather typical mystical representation of a woman. I don't think we can say that the people who made her for columbia pictures, or the other representations, or the designer of the statue of liberty, necessarily modeled them on the 'Veiled Goddess". Tho generally, yes, she is a sort of divine female, often with a crown, so its a good enough resemblance. But, what does the vieled goddess have to do with the knights of columbus? They are named after Chris Columbus, the 'great italian' (now we suspect he might not have been genoese, but they didn't back then) who discovered 'merica.

Perhaps his father changed their family name, perhaps the grandfather, but yes, I am suggesting that it was agreed that electricity would be named after the Goddess, but they would be allowed to take the 'personal glory' in her name, as it were.

So you are actually suggesting that the discoverers father or grandfather knew that the kid was going to make the breakthru and changed their name to columb (is there any evidence that the name was or was not changed btw?), in order to satisfy some 'plan' to have stuff that refers to 'The ancient goddess'? And as columbia? Not isis or anything else, but this relatively new 'columbia'? And that the same was with columbus? Why would 'they' want columbus to make his name columbus? Does the goddess Columbia exist before christopher columbus, as columbia? I am not familiar on this matter.

IE. you are talking to her as if she is God!

No catholic worships mary as god. God for catholics is the Triune Godhead, mary has no part of it. Catholics, and most other christians, have saints nad other holy people that are sometimes appealed to. I agree, its 'tied up' with paganism, but its not paganism itself, and the peopel doing it don't worship the saints or mary as god, or as god's consort or anything. They worhsip god as god, and nothing else.

Originally posted by ThePunisher
it is fact that ''The Knights of the Columbia(Goddess)'', have been around a while and are not some ATS posters "Preconceived Notions"

Ok, but what does that have to do with the Knights of Columbus, who are not these 'Knights of Columbia'. Calling columbus columbia is an interpretation. Not wrong in itself, but it carries no force, since you are not a KoC, and certainly arenot one of hte creators.


If the dove was incoroporated into christianity as a pagan carry over, and the idea of the crowned queen was taken over by mary, or remained in ideas like columbia, or lady liberty, whats it matter with respect ot the knights of columbus? They state that they are called that because of christoper columbus. They use the dove, not because it represents some goddess that they've probably never heard of and would consider the worship of as 'stupid' (not to speak for them tho), like they probably consider any paganism, but because the dove does represent the holy spirit, head down because its an abstract representation of the dove landing, as in the spirit comming to earth, as they state, not as an inversion of the sacred feminine or some such.

What evidence suggests that the creators of the KoC were familiar with these alternative interpretations, or better, that thats what they intended it to be interpreted as? Why'd they make it a catholic group, if they are pagans? Why the vatican approve it? Did it not know? Did it know and was 'in on it'? Why? Why would the vatican be worshipping a goddess from two millenia ago, and why in secret, especially if they've been doing so all along??? If they wanted to worshop ishtar, then why wouldn't they just come out and do it? What prupose is served by 'tricking' christians to 'revere mary' (which apparently they did before the RCC, or any big church was around, ie, on their own) when they really want to worship ishtar (or whatever name we give ot the goddess)?

[edit on 26-5-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by ThePunisher
Sebatwerk, it is fact that ''The Knights of the Columbia(Goddess)'', have been around a while and are not some ATS posters "Preconceived Notions".

I also dont think ATS posters go around deciding the Symbolic name to represent electricity, either.

The "preonceived notions" that I am referring to are Akilles' beliefs that the KofC are somehow associated with the Knights of the Columbia, or the name for measures of electric current, etc etc. Even after two Knights of Columbus EXPLAINED to Akilles the meaning of their name, and dispelled the associations from the claims he made, Akilles still insisted on continuing to post as if this had never happened.

It just doesnt seem like Akilles even recognizes the fact that others have replied to his post and debunked his claims. Very convenient for a troll to do such a thing...

''The Knights of the Columbia'' was my abbreviation, regardless, Sebatwerk, i dont think Akilles has been ''debunked'' either.

You know the Knights of Columbus on this message board have there 'Belief/s' according to there 'Level' or 'Degrees' in the 'Order', and thats just one of the prices they/you can 'Pay' through 'Ritual' and 'Initiation'.

Same with the other Secret Societies.


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Don't forget that Columbus never really reached America. If you forget all about what the history textbooks say and do a little research, you'll find that Columbus made it only to the island of Hispanola (I believe it is located somewhere in the Carribean), and managed to wipe out all of the locals.

Originally posted by oxgoad
Don't forget that Columbus never really reached America.

While there's still disagreement about just where Columbus first landed, most evidence points to the South Central Bahamas.

Coulomb's law has nothing to do with a divine goddess. It is named after Charles Augustin de Coulomb...a well known scientist in his day who was born (1736) and died in France (1806).

The link contains info about this law...
www.absoluteastronomy.com...

A clarification on the dove thing:

KJV Luke 3:22 - And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

This is one reason the dove is symbolic of the Holy Ghost. There may be more but it's the only one that comes to mind right now.

Ah, so its in the bible itself. I had thought it was extrabiblical. Of course, it may have been added to the bible over the decades, but still, seems that that would make it a christian symbol more than anything else.

For everyone that wants to know about the Knights of Columbus read the book Faith and Fraternalism by Christopher Kauffman. The book explains where the name of the Knights came from.

The Knights of Columbus? All they do 'round here is put on bingo-nights for old folks, they hardly constitute a secret society IMO.

Actually, I did see them put on a pancake-breakfast for the mentally disabled once...that is kinda suspicious...

-wD

Nygdan, I just WISH I could say you are completely right.

But you aren't. You are taking a stubborn, but valid viewpoint, which negates the ability for change, and establishing new traditions, and representing the old ideas in new forms.

Sorry, but these things happen. Goddess worship went underground because we are living in the AGE of the Dark Goddess (Kali Yuga to the Hindus) and this means VEILED goddess worship.

Which means 'in secret', 'indirect', whatever you want to call it, the goddess of the many names IS Mary, who would you believe it is also known for her many names/titles.

Here's a tidbit for ya, as to if the RCC is involved at the top (although you ask a lot of WHY for someone who has seemingly never considered it for themselves, Nygdan):
In Poland, the Church encourages believers to pray to the Black Madonna of Czestochowka every morning before rising. It is reported that Pope John Paul follows this ritual. Time Magazine (June 11, 1979)

owl motif, usually associated with the Dark Goddess in her Goddess of Death aspect

as well as ALL snake symbolism being goddess worship, due to the snakes regenerative abilities.

"Actually the worship of the virgin, Black "Mother of God" with her God-begotten child, far predates Christianity and prevailed throughout the ancient world. Historians recognize that the statue of the Egyptian Goddess Isis with her child Horus in her arms was the first Madonna and Child."

"The worship of Isis and Horus was especially popular in ancient Rome. "

"Titles such as Our Lady, The Great Mother, are the same titles attributed to Isis! The word "Madonna" itself is from mater domina, a title used for Isis!"

"the Black Madonna is the ancient earth-goddess converted to Christianity."

His argument begins by noting that many goddesses were pictured as black, among them Artemis of Ephesus, Isis, Ceres, and others. Ceres, the Roman goddess of agricultural fertility is particularly important. Her Greek equivalent, Demeter, derives from Ge-meter or Earth Mother.

"authors casually equated the 'Black Virgins' venerated by Catholics with pagan goddess images of similar appearance"

"While best known for her aspects as mother, healer, and icon of justice and compassion these compelling icons do not deny their inherent duality and thus also embody the very Aztec concept that for life there must be death."

So you can see which aspect is worshipped in public, and what is mostly unspoken, hidden.

As for your crowned goddess ideas, Nygdan, again, you have tried to meet me halfway, and done so. Why not allow yourself (or atleast allow others to) use their full brain and accept:
Bible Myths, T.W. Doane devotes a chapter to The Worship of the Virgin Mother, where he candidly states, "The whole secret of the fact of these early representations of the Virgin Mary and Jesus - so called-being black, crowned, and covered with jewels, is that they are of pre-Christian origin; they are Isis and Horus... baptized anew."