Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?

I thought the Masons were a secret society...
People want to know what goes on...
Perhaps drawing their own conclusions from
information they have collected forces The
Masons to come out of the wood work and
defend it.

In other words, baiting them to come out
and discuss and possibly they will divulge
some information that can be skewed by
the next investigator.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
I'm not sure, to be honest. I haven't joined the York Rite yet, though I've considered it.

Many thanks for the response, seems no one else is able to confirm it one way or another either. It'd be quite handy to know.

Originally posted by JoshNorton
I wouldn't progress all the way through the York bodies anyway, as the top 2 or 3 of their degrees require you to swear that you'll defend the Christian faith above all others.

And, I am assuming such an oath doesn't appear in the Scottish Rite?


@ Cluckerspud...singularly impressive avatar you have there...

[edit on 11-12-2008 by KilgoreTrout]

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout


And, I am assuming such an oath doesn't appear in the Scottish Rite?

In the Commandery of Knights Templar, found in the York Rite, the Novitiate is required to an assume an obligation to "defend the Christian Religion", as the Knights Templar have always been an Order of Christian Knighthood.

However, there are no such obligations elsewhere in the York Rite, or the Scottish Rite.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
In the Commandery of Knights Templar, found in the York Rite, the Novitiate is required to an assume an obligation to "defend the Christian Religion", as the Knights Templar have always been an Order of Christian Knighthood.

However, there are no such obligations elsewhere in the York Rite, or the Scottish Rite.

Thank you Masonic Light.

How about the other oath that JoshNorton mentioned...seperation of church and state...do you kow whether that appears in the York Rite as well as the Scottish?

Originally posted by cluckerspud
I thought the Masons were a secret society...
People want to know what goes on...
Perhaps drawing their own conclusions from
information they have collected forces The
Masons to come out of the wood work and
defend it.

In other words, baiting them to come out
and discuss and possibly they will divulge
some information that can be skewed by
the next investigator.

Actually, there is more of the reason that the masons who are in lodge are tech savvy and are able to use the internetz now days. There are a lot more younger masons now in lodge and they are apart of the computer age and know whats going on, hence why i joined ATS and decide to talk about masonry. I'm not saying we are not defending masonry, I'm just saying that there are more masons who are on the internet now days as compared to 10 years ago.

well there are those masons who just don't know what is going on, they just think they joined some cool club thingy. The others are part of the NWO.

reply to post by jonah0julian


What makes you think any Master Mason doesn't know what's going on. There is no hidden agenda or NWO in freemasonry. i know this post will fall on deaf ears though. Give me this information that you know, because as a Freemason, I can assure you there is no master plan.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
How about the other oath that JoshNorton mentioned...seperation of church and state...do you know whether that appears in the York Rite as well as the Scottish?

I'm still looking for an answer to this question if anyone has one....????

Also, if Trinity Man is about, does an oath in any shape or form similar to this appear in any of the rites 'auhorised' by UGLE?

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
How about the other oath that JoshNorton mentioned...seperation of church and state...do you know whether that appears in the York Rite as well as the Scottish?

I'm still looking for an answer to this question if anyone has one....????

Also, if Trinity Man is about, does an oath in any shape or form similar to this appear in any of the rites 'auhorised' by UGLE?

I believe the Scottish Rite is unique in that it SPECIFICALLY requires an oath to defend the separation of church in state. I'd say a main theme of many of the Scottish Rite degrees is to defend against religious tyranny.

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
I believe the Scottish Rite is unique in that it SPECIFICALLY requires an oath to defend the separation of church in state. I'd say a main theme of many of the Scottish Rite degrees is to defend against religious tyranny.

That is most helpful, thank you. Interesting too. This may be a naive question on my part, but does the Scottish Rite have any particular denominational leanings?

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout


That is most helpful, thank you. Interesting too. This may be a naive question on my part, but does the Scottish Rite have any particular denominational leanings?

No, the Scottish Rite is completely non-sectarian. Different religious ideas throughout history are presented throughout the degrees, from Zoroastrianism and Christianity through Sufism, Judaism, and Hermeticism. The Rite does not present these teachings as something for Masons to adopt as their personal beliefs, but rather as educational efforts to follow man's journey toward spiritual truth, and the evolution of religious thought.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
No, the Scottish Rite is completely non-sectarian. Different religious ideas throughout history are presented throughout the degrees, from Zoroastrianism and Christianity through Sufism, Judaism, and Hermeticism. The Rite does not present these teachings as something for Masons to adopt as their personal beliefs, but rather as educational efforts to follow man's journey toward spiritual truth, and the evolution of religious thought.

Also very helpful, thank you. So, where does the Scottish Rite fall in the 'evolution' of Freemasonry? Does it pre- or post-date the York Rite, for example? When, where and by whom, was it founded/incorporated? That sort of thing, roughly...or any history links would be very much appreciated.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Also very helpful, thank you. So, where does the Scottish Rite fall in the 'evolution' of Freemasonry? Does it pre- or post-date the York Rite, for example? When, where and by whom, was it founded/incorporated? That sort of thing, roughly...or any history links would be very much appreciated.

Here is what I can recall (I am sure I will be corrected as needed):

What we would call the York Rite is quite a bit older, as technically the first three degrees of the blue lodge are in fact the first three degrees of the york rite. Royal arch masonry is also a normal progression from the blue lodge degrees for England and many UGLE amity jurisdictions.

The Scottish Rite, on the other hand, was not formally founded until 1801 when the Supreme Council was formed in Charleston, South Carolina. The degrees that originally populated the Scottish Rite were from France (which I always find ironic) and I believe those were called the Order of the Royal Secret. That is why the highest degree was 32 - Master/Prince of the Royal Secret, and the honorific degrees did not arise until Pike put them in.

I don't know what the research is in terms of how the leaders of the York and Scottish Rites intertwined, but the sense I get is that the two side orders really have been pretty much divergent and developed wholly apart from each other beyond the blue lodge.

I suspect that part of the Scottish Rite's consistent theme of the important of separating Church and State and the constant lessons against religious tyranny are in part due to the French enlightenment.

For the development of the Scottish Rite I strongly recommend the Scottish Rite Monitor. Its expensive, but its absolutely huge and gives a really good overview of the Scottish Rite's history in the front as well as the degrees in the rest of the book:
www.scottishritestore.org...

I am not in the York Rite but I am sure some of the board's resident masons are and they will be able to recommend something from that side.

Hope that is semi-helpful.

[edit on 17-12-2008 by LowLevelMason]

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Also very helpful, thank you. So, where does the Scottish Rite fall in the 'evolution' of Freemasonry? Does it pre- or post-date the York Rite, for example? When, where and by whom, was it founded/incorporated? That sort of thing, roughly...or any history links would be very much appreciated.

Although most of the thirty-three degrees of the Scottish Rite existed in parts of previous degree systems, the Scottish Rite did not come into being until the formation of the Mother Supreme Council at Charleston, South Carolina, in May 1801.
en.wikipedia.org...

I am uncertain of the history of the York Rite degree system. I did read that two of the York Rite degrees were once part of the Scottish Rite system...

Although the history of the Cryptic degrees is connected with the Scottish Rite degrees, Cryptic Masonry is now a part of the York, or American Rite. In 1850 the Scottish Rite Supreme Councils claimed jurisdiction over the Cryptic degrees, but they gave up this claim in 1870. Some felt that Scottish Rite degrees (13th) cover similar ground, so the Scottish Rite did not need the Cryptic degrees. Since the discovery in the Royal Arch degree is related to the deposit mentioned in the Royal and Select Master degrees, these degrees are logically in the York Rite.
bessel.org...

I guess the general idea is that in the 18th and 19th century there were a lot of degrees floating around from a variety of sources. Some got collected into more codified systems than others, and some are likely forgotten in their entirety. The Grand College of Rites attempts to preserve many of the degrees that are no longer conferred today.

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
Hope that is semi-helpful.

Fully helpful, thank you, no semi about it.

Ditto, to JoshNorton, thanks for answering my questions.

Now to digest...

The truth will set you free

Originally posted by The Axeman
Being a member of this forum for almost a year now, I have seen many people come and go. I have seen all manner of credible information passed along, and I have also seen despicable and deliberate lies and falsehoods posted regarding the Masonic Fraternity.

My question is why?

Why do people, without a real clue as to what Masonry is about, post and promulgate such lies and falsehoods about these men?

Why is it that good honest men are called liars because one or two people suggest (without good reason) that they are, by way of posting false "oaths" and other such nonsense that is easily shown to be false? When the Masons challenge these lies and try to put forth the truth, they are labeled liars, and "because they are Masons, must be lying" about their fraternity.

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?!?!

Why are people who say "Masons are bad" put up on some kind of pedestal, while real, good, honest Masons who speak from years and years of collective experience are belittled and made out to be false and dishonest, when their true intentions are to make the good deeds and positive aims of their fraternity and themselves known to the general public? So many times I have seen people come onto this board and ask a question of the Masons here, to have it answered politely and accurately. Then, once the question is answered, someone will post something to the effect of "Oh, they are sworn to lie" and all of a sudden the detractor is the be-all-end-all of truth, while the Mason who is trying to give an honest answer is labeled a liar and a fraud. Those that are enemies of Freemasonry (by their own choice and for their own reasons) will proceed to say "Oh, well you are a Mason, how can we trust what you say?" Truth is an integral part of Masonry. They are taught to ALWAYS put forth the truth.

My question to you then, members of this forum, is this: Why are those who would detract from, or otherwise slander Masons given the benifit of the doubt, while Masons who speak from experience in the hopes of helping someone to understand are fed to the wolves and labeled liars?

Is it more likely that those who make outlandish claims against the Freemasons are correct, or that the Masons who are stuck woth defending a fraternity that means so much to them are telling the truth in the hopes that more people will understand what it is that Masons do and why it is so important to them?

It saddens me very much to see those who make claims with no way to back them up rallied around in the face of members of a fraternity that can provide good information, documentation, and reliable resources to back up what they say.

In short, those who are against Freemasonry rely on very inconsistent and unverifiable claims, while the Freemasons have many, many resources and hundreds of years of collective experience to draw upon to make posts and answer questions.

Why do people insist on taking the word of those who can't back up what they say over people who can? It mystifies me...

Anyone???

Because of one main thing, fear.

People fear what they do not know and in trying to solve things they begin to look for patterns.

Most people see for example, politican who is a mason and scream corruption.

Little do they know how much that mason will have contributed to society.

I do not know why it bothers masons so much come to think of it.

Id have a chuckle about it as I am sure many others do.

Logic goes straight out the window in times like this when people are desperate which is making it worse.

Originally posted by The Axeman

The Masons have a saying: 2B1 Ask1. Perhaps the guy in Starbucks saw the Mason's ring and asked about it? They are permitted to talk about Freemasonry, people, that fact should be obvious from the posts on this very site and elsewhere. The fact of the matter is, they don't "recruit" in that they don't solicit people for membership as the above poster suggests. Actually that whole post smells fishy to me (not you, blanketgirl), but whatever. It just goes along with the title of this thread. Why post something like that? Anyways, it would not be unheard of or even uncommon for a Freemason to invite someone who had expressed an interest to come down to the lodge and visit, look around, and get any questions they may have answered.

A man has to come to Freemasonry by his own will and accord. In most jusrisdictions around the world, recruiting is expressly forbidden.

[edit on 5/24/05 by The Axeman]

Mmm strange, i was thinking most masonic lodges are "invitation only", so it seems they can only be filled by inviting (recruiting) new members.
Maybe my english is not good enough so i understand it wrong.

Some conflicting information here.

Originally posted by jaamaan


Mmm strange, i was thinking most masonic lodges are "invitation only", so it seems they can only be filled by inviting (recruiting) new members.

No, in most of the US, it is against the rules to invite someone. A person who wants to become a Mason must request it, he cannot be invited.

i am posting as someone who has negative things to say about my experience with masons. my problem with freemasons is this...

they are way to quick to defend their organizations without looking at the evidence presented to them.

i have had plenty to say about what i consider blatant deception re: the Biblical roots of certain associated orders. any rebuttle given to me regarding this matter has been to dispute my former membership or to discredit me as a sensationalist. i have recieved no response debunking my research. this to me is interpreted in two ways.

1. said masons do not look into any information that they consider anti-masonic in nature while condemning any related thoeries immediately. this is what i call contempt prior to investigation.

2. said masons are aware of this deception and shift focus to discredit myself and others in an effort to control damage to the image of the organization.

lets suppose that you are good men being made better. it seems to me that making a full real effort to disprove these claims would be truely benificial to the image of freemasonry. i am not talking about claims lacking any evidence. there are many of this kind (though lack of evidence does not mean lack of malicious occurance), however my claims and the claims of many others are presented with bodies of evidence. this is the reason why i refuse to discuss my personal experiences inside masonic temples. i have no proof of these ocurrances. i do however have proof of the general deception that occured, and not a single well meaning mason has addressed any alternative explaination of this situation. i challenge any mason out there to explain to me why job's daughters claims to be based on the Biblical book of job when the garments prayers and songs of the order are a perfect parallel to the testament of job. come on now...it is not like these alligations are sprinkled with 10 foot lizards and flying saucers. this is based on a book that is 1500 years old. real evidence. if i were a "good" mason with a daughter in this organization i would be pissed off that my child was being mislead spiritually. i certainly would not want her dressed up in magical cords that make her speak in the voices of the archons, astrally project and learn the secrets of heaven. this is so not condusive with Biblical doctorine. so give it a crack fellas...

wesley.nnu.edu...

www.featureshoot.com...