Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?

Originally posted by sir_chancealot
Don't you think what THEY had to say about masons and masonic rituals would be relevant?

Relevant yes.. But they are not the Gospel.

For example in the preface of Morals and Dogma Pike writes...

The teachings of these Readings are not sacramental, so far as they go beyond the realm of Morality into those of other domains of Thought and Truth. The Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite uses the word "Dogma" in its true sense, of doctrine, or teaching; and is not dogmatic in the odious sense of that term. Every one is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound.

Source: Morals and Dogma, preface p. iii

Originally posted by sir_chancealot
Wow. You must not even know your own Masonic authors. Manly P. Hall is widely revered (within the masonic lodge) as one of the greatest masonic philosophers that ever lived.

Wow. I've been a Mason for MANY years and have received darn near every degree there is, including the 33rd Degree (of which so many unknowing people claim to be an authority) and NO ONE has EVER made such a claim to me. Fact of the matter is, Hall was NOT EVEN A MASON when he was writing about Masonry. Sure, his works are interesting, but "widely revered as one of the greatest Masonic philosophers" (?) C'mon now. You're giving him way too much credit and you obviously believe everything you read on anti-Masonic websites.

And the chances are about 50/50 that you have a picture of Albert Pike inside your own lodge.

(!) Now THAT is a new one on me (and I've been in hundreds of Lodges around the country and around the world.

Why in the WORLD would you think that?

Albert Pike was the presiding officer of the Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction and had NO AUTHORITY WHATSOEVER over Symbolic or "Craft" Masonry (First three degrees of the Lodge) The S.R. confers the 4-33 degrees. Outside the Southern Jurisdiction Pike is hardly known and within the SJ, I'd say the average Scottish Rite Mason doesn't really know who he was or understand what he did (and, by the way, he did a LOT for Scottish Rite Freemasonry)

Don't you think what THEY had to say about masons and masonic rituals would be relevant?

As Cug pointed out in the previous post, Pike himself said that his work could be accepted or not, that it was up to the reader to weigh the material presented and draw his own conclusions.

You see, sir_chancealot, that's the beauty of Masonry. NO ONE...not Pike, not Hall, not Baphomet and not some ultra-secret Skull & Bones Illuminati Leader tells Masons (individually or collectively) what to do or what to think. We are taught to think for ourselves.

Interesting concept, huh?


[edit on 19-7-2007 by Appak]

Originally posted by sir_chancealot


Wow. You must not even know your own Masonic authors. Manly P. Hall is widely revered (within the masonic lodge) as one of the greatest masonic philosophers that ever lived. And the chances are about 50/50 that you have a picture of Albert Pike inside your own lodge.

As a matter of fact, I had the good fortune to personally speak with Manly P. Hall on several different occasions. And I have a small bust of Albert Pike in my home library.

Don't you think what THEY had to say about masons and masonic rituals would be relevant?

Sure. And, most certainly, neither of these gentlemen never said anything as ridiculous as Masons worshiping satan.

Originally posted by sir_chancealot
When someone says "Masons are evil", what they mean is the people at the top of Masonic orders. They will USUALLY (but not always) realize that the people at the bottom are kept ignorant of the Satan worship going on at the top.

Oh, and for those who don't believe this..... Try offering a prayer to Jesus Christ at your next lodge meeting.

You guys, I swear... when people say "Masons are evil," it simply illustrates their ignorance on the subject. Likewise, when people speak of "high-level Masons" or "people at the top of Masonic orders," they betray their utter lack of understanding of Masonry.

As to your other comment: last year, when the Grand Master of Masons of Texas made his official visit to our Temple, the prayer before the meal was said by one of the Grand Lodge Officers (Grand Senior Warden, I think) and he ended his prayer with "In Jesus' name, Amen," which was met with a resounding "SO MOTE IT BE!"

There is nothing forbidding (or even discouraging) such a prayer; the lack of proper names for dieties is typically out of respect for brethren who might practice a religion other than Christianity. I assure you the Grand Senior Warden had no trouble from anyone about that, and if you want to pray to Jesus, you are more than welcome to do so. There have also been several occasions in regular lodge when the Chaplain or whoever was offering the prayer ended with "In Jesus' name," or something to that effect, always followed by the proper Masonic response. No troubles.

What did you think, that people who prayed to Jesus in lodge would be stoned or something?

I dont know about people posting outright lies? But what I do know is they have a reason of interest lol.

img126.imageshack.us...

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
I dont know about people posting outright lies? But what I do know is they have a reason of interest lol.

img126.imageshack.us...

Dude... come on...

You have been around long enough to know that Eliphas Levi's depiction of Baphomet has no relation to Masonry. It's all been said a thousand times. Why even post it again? In lieu of typing yet another response, check my previous posts on the subject:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you have anything further to discuss after reading the posts and examining the links, let's hear it.

Otherwise, I suspect that was simply intended as an inflammatory post, which, as I recall, is discouraged here.

[edit on 8/1/07 by The Axeman]

Topescretombomb - what is so horrible (or to use that other popular phrase "Satanic") about -> "Solve et Coagula" = "Dissolve and Coagulate"?

People see what they want to see in the end. If you have Esoteric Knowledge that you wish to teach people (like Levi did) & yet Guard from Vulgar eyes you DISGUISE it. In this case it is Alchemy & that is exactly what Levi did = Disguise. It worked too people most people see the "Devil" right away!

www.twistedtree.org.uk...

As Above... So Below.

we try to view these things with an open minded persona. try to have respect for other peoples beliefs and such..

but sometimes it seems that everytime somebody has a good piece of evidence, that theres a speciffic group who will use deceptive claims to help linger everyone away from actually seeing some kind of truth in an argument.

now ill say...

there are certain people who were murdered for exposing certain groups and their teachings. take bill cooper for example, he was snowed because he took on the jfk assassination head on, took on the masonic doctrine & illuminati conspiracy and started showing people actual credible evidence regarding them being "in power" or having a say over what happens in certain "illegal" wars.

now ill be told that he was murdered on behalf of cop suicide after a raid was conducted on his ranch based on outstanding warrants.

i for that matter, wont fall for that either. lmfao.

Is this thread still going on? it poeped out on the first line on myats favorites
It's incredible how some people deny facts that are out there to see in front view.

I agree. It's equally incredible what some people will swallow as "facts".

Especially from sites like Freemasonrywatch

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
we try to view these things with an open minded persona. try to have respect for other peoples beliefs and such..

Who is "we," exactly?

now ill say...

there are certain people who were murdered for exposing certain groups and their teachings. take bill cooper for example, he was snowed because he took on the jfk assassination head on, took on the masonic doctrine & illuminati conspiracy and started showing people actual credible evidence regarding them being "in power" or having a say over what happens in certain "illegal" wars.

Now I'll say:

Bill Cooper was killed in a stand-off with Federal Agents or something of that sort. I don't know the details, but the way I understand it is that he was a tad bit "out there" towards the end and went all "Ruby Ridge" on the feds and got himself killed.

Besides that I read his book and his "theories" on Freemasonry were just as full of holes as the ones we see come across this board all the time. Rubbish. He certainly didn't offer any "proof," or even anything resembling "proof" of a "Masonic Conspiracy." He did call it something along the lines of "the most vile, evil organization on Earth," or something really similar. It's been a few years since I read the book. I think I even posted here about it at one point. I suggest you have a re-read if you think Bill Cooper said anything "new" or "convincing" regarding Freemasonry.


[edit on 8/21/07 by The Axeman]

I think most of negative remarks involving Mason's is the result of shooting off ones mouth while not bothering to collects facts,I see many replies calling everything in question a fake,so doesn't suprise me in the least

Originally posted by The Axeman
Bill Cooper was killed in a stand-off with Federal Agents or something of that sort. I don't know the details, but the way I understand it is that he was a tad bit "out there" towards the end and went all "Ruby Ridge" on the feds and got himself killed.

I haven't read Bill Cooper's work but I think you will find that the 'Feds' went all Ruby Ridge on him not the other way around. Incompetence or willful murder you decide. Either way, like the Ruby Ridge incident he got killed for not paying his taxes and according to all the sources I have seen he didn't fire the first shot.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I haven't read Bill Cooper's work but I think you will find that the 'Feds' went all Ruby Ridge on him not the other way around. Incompetence or willful murder you decide. Either way, like the Ruby Ridge incident he got killed for not paying his taxes and according to all the sources I have seen he didn't fire the first shot.

Well, are the sources you've seen more or less credible than Alex Jones?

If he raised a gun at agents he might as well have fired first. What do you expect them to do? Let him shoot a cop before they fire? Not likely. I don't know what happened, and I'm not particularly interested in debating it, so... that very well may have been; I really don't know, and how he died is really irrelevant to the issue. I was going from memory of something I read years ago when I was reading his book.

I do know that his ideas about Freemasonry were about as far off as one could hope to get, and that was (ostensibly) topsecretombomb's reasoning for pulling his name into the thread; stating that because he was "showing evidence" against Masonry (among other things, granted), he was murdered... the implication being that it was the Masons and/or The Illuminati that did him in.

Not so (considering that the latter doesn't exist), hence my post.

One of the cops or agents on scene could have been a Mason by coincidence, I suppose, but that is all the connection you'd be likely to find there.

Of course, topsecretombomb was just baiting, so no worries anyway.

Originally posted by The Axeman
Of course, topsecretombomb was just baiting, so no worries anyway.

I haven't read any of Alex Jones' material, I've seen a few of his films but it is not really my cup of tea, so no that is not my source. There are a number of articles on the topic from a variety of perspectives. You have to fill in the gaps and reach your own conclusion.

However, just because the freemasons aren't plotting to take over the world doesn't mean that Bill Cooper wasn't unlawfully killed by the 'law'. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Similarly, just because the Freemasons aren't in the Illuminati doesn't mean that it doesn't exist at all.

Admittedly somewhat off topic but tombomb started it

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I haven't read any of Alex Jones' material, I've seen a few of his films but it is not really my cup of tea, so no that is not my source. There are a number of articles on the topic from a variety of perspectives. You have to fill in the gaps and reach your own conclusion.

It's the same all over.

Alex's stuff is... entertaining to say the least. He's not all bad, he just tends to take things too far. Not altogether a bad thing; but you have to pick your battles, and he struggles with that, I think. In my opinion his deficiency in that department damages his credibility.

However, just because the freemasons aren't plotting to take over the world doesn't mean that Bill Cooper wasn't unlawfully killed by the 'law'. The two are not mutually exclusive.

By no means. As I said, I don't know all the details about the incident, so I couldn't say one way or the other about that. It wouldn't be the first time someone was "unlawfully" killed by the "law" and it wouldn't be the last time either, I'm sure. We Americans do tend to be trigger-happy at times.

Similarly, just because the Freemasons aren't in the Illuminati doesn't mean that it doesn't exist at all.

True, but that is not what my comment is based on. My research and powers of observation have led me to the conclusion that the "Illuminati" the CT's are worried about is a fairy-tale -- or perhaps simply a blanket term (for lack of a better one) for those people in high office (or those behind them) who don't have the general public's best interest at heart and who influence policies. Certainly those people exist, but I highly doubt it is in such an organized fashion as the Illuminati CT's would have people believe.

The Illuminati died in the late 1700's. Let it go, people.

Admittedly somewhat off topic but tombomb started it

After 41 pages, do we really even care about the original topic anymore?

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout


I haven't read Bill Cooper's work but I think you will find that the 'Feds' went all Ruby Ridge on him not the other way around. Incompetence or willful murder you decide. Either way, like the Ruby Ridge incident he got killed for not paying his taxes and according to all the sources I have seen he didn't fire the first shot.

I have Cooper's "Behold A Pale Horse". It mentions Masonry a few times but the book itself does not focus on Masonry.

Concerning his death, Cooper was stockpiling illegal weapons. A warrant was served; he refused to comply, the police burst through his door, and he fired the first shot. I do not have any sympathy for William Cooper. Law enforcement officers were just doing their job. They all have families too, and want them to come home alive. I say Cooper got exactly what he deserved.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Horrible! Behold a pale horse has TONS of info on the Illuminati & Freemason movement. I strongly suggest anybody reading it whose tired of coming to this website and hearing all the jingo jingo rubbish. He talks about how he was told by his peers to become a Freemason to help him reach the hierarchys of his Naval Career. He served eight years and thats when he describes his first UFO encounter.

Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
we try to view these things with an open minded persona. try to have respect for other peoples beliefs and such..

Who is "we," exactly?

now ill say...

there are certain people who were murdered for exposing certain groups and their teachings. take bill cooper for example, he was snowed because he took on the jfk assassination head on, took on the masonic doctrine & illuminati conspiracy and started showing people actual credible evidence regarding them being "in power" or having a say over what happens in certain "illegal" wars.

Now I'll say:

Bill Cooper was killed in a stand-off with Federal Agents or something of that sort. I don't know the details, but the way I understand it is that he was a tad bit "out there" towards the end and went all "Ruby Ridge" on the feds and got himself killed.

Besides that I read his book and his "theories" on Freemasonry were just as full of holes as the ones we see come across this board all the time. Rubbish. He certainly didn't offer any "proof," or even anything resembling "proof" of a "Masonic Conspiracy." He did call it something along the lines of "the most vile, evil organization on Earth," or something really similar. It's been a few years since I read the book. I think I even posted here about it at one point. I suggest you have a re-read if you think Bill Cooper said anything "new" or "convincing" regarding Freemasonry.


[edit on 8/21/07 by The Axeman]

All you mentioned was that he called Freemasonry "The Most Vile Organization" on earth, you didnt mention any other text he uses to describe the term Freemasonry itself. He also does mention a good list of sects actually.

As for cop suicide, anybody whose read the book knows that its a complete lie. Anybody with an open mind knows its a complete utter lie. Being shot in every major artery and every major joint in your body is in no way a "cop suicide." Lmfao! No they werent lucky shots, just there doing their rotten task of eliminating Mr Cooper.

Yes. That's all I mentioned. That's because I read the book like 4 or 5 years ago, and my memory isn't quite that good as to remember verbatim what he wrote. For that matter, you didn't mention any of the text you refer to, either, and it's you who pulled Bill Cooper into it. So, pony up some text then, if you're so worried about it. I don't have the book anymore, so I couldn't, even if I had the inclination, which I don't.

I already told you, I don't know specifics about how he died, and I really care very little so it's not likely that I would research it personally. I read his book, that was enough for me.

Incidentally, a lot of the stuff he wrote about was bollocks. Like the nuclear satellite crashing into Jupiter and causing some kind of cataclysm (which obviously did not happen)... just one example.

Point is, his arguments against Freemasonry were weak at best, maliciously false at worst.

Do you have any documentation of him being "shot in every major artery and every major joint in [his] body," or is that just conspiracy theory propaganda? I'd think that there would be sources. How did you come across this information?

Oh, I forgot, one of the things he said in his book was that if he happened to turn up dead, blame the Freemasons.

Damned vile, evil Masons...


[edit on 8/28/07 by The Axeman]