Russia urges US to avoid space arms race (NATO running Amok)

Can somebody post the sources specifying that US petroleum resources are larger than those of Russia. As I heard from Western sources, Russian petroleum resources are second only to Saudi Arabia- and even that statistic could be wrong because much of potential oil fields in Russia have yet to be explored. Plus Russia consumes far less oil than US, thus it does not need as much. It also get much of oil exports from Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan, who sell it cheaply to Russia, and Russia resells it to the West at a profit. Russia is able to cover all of its oil needs through its own resources, and would have more than enough left for export for decades to come. US on the other hand relies more and more on importing oil. I read in Business News Weekly magazine some time ago, than Western oil firms face trouble in near future, because they cannot find enough suppliers to even fulfill their current needs- and oil consumption will only rise in the future.

Besides oil Russia has the largest deposits in the World of natural gas (more than 50% in fact- and over 65% if you add pro-Russian Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan), which is also an increasingly very vital energy source for much of Europe and Asia. Furthermore Russia has vast quanties of many other valuable resources in Siberia and Ural. Resouce wise, it is the richest country in the world (if you consider not just oil).

The main economic problem for Russia now, is how to rebuild its economy to compete with EU and US, and possibly China. Thanks to nationalized energy resources, Russian government is now pumping most of the inclome from exports into Russian economy, and it seems that this jump-start is working. Russian GDP growth in the last few years is higher than any of the Western nations. Foreign investments in Russia (such as automotive factories) are pouring in. In a decade or so, Russian economy could be the strongest in Europe and compete with US if the current administration stays in power and exports continue to flow. Europe needs Russian resources, and Russia needs Europe's money. It is very unlikely that Russian-European relations would worsen anytime soon because of this.


So yes- Russia is very capable of competing in an arms race with US. Furthermore China wouldn't stand around watching them go at it alone either.

[edit on 7-7-2006 by maloy]

Originally posted by maloy
Can somebody post the sources specifying that US petroleum resources are larger than those of Russia. As I heard from Western sources, Russian petroleum resources are second only to Saudi Arabia- and even that statistic could be wrong because much of potential oil fields in Russia have yet to be explored. Plus Russia consumes far less oil than US, thus it does not need as much. It also get much of oil exports from Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan, who sell it cheaply to Russia, and Russia resells it to the West at a profit. Russia is able to cover all of its oil needs through its own resources, and would have more than enough left for export for decades to come. US on the other hand relies more and more on importing oil. I read in Business News Weekly magazine some time ago, than Western oil firms face trouble in near future, because they cannot find enough suppliers to even fulfill their current needs- and oil consumption will only rise in the future.

Besides oil Russia has the largest deposits in the World of natural gas (more than 50% in fact- and over 65% if you add pro-Russian Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan), which is also an increasingly very vital energy source for much of Europe and Asia. Furthermore Russia has vast quanties of many other valuable resources in Siberia and Ural.
The main economic problem for Russia now, is how to rebuild its economy to compete with EU and US, and possibly China. Thanks to nationalized energy resources, Russian government is now pumping most of the inclome from exports into Russian economy, and it seems that this jump-start is working. Russian GDP growth in the last few years is higher than any of the Western nations. Foreign investments in Russia (such as automotive factories) are pouring in. In a decade or so, Russian economy could be the strongest in Europe and compete with US if the current administration stays in power and exports continue to flow. Europe needs Russian resources, and Russia needs Europe's money. It is very unlikely that Russian-European relations would worsen anytime soon because of this.

[edit on 7-7-2006 by maloy]

I have already said in another post. The United States has vast oil reserves in Alaska and off the coast, not to mention some reserves in texas and a few other states. Also we have an enormous amount of coal. Technologies in many countries are developing ways to use coal in a cleaner way. It is just the US does not use barely any of these energy resources. I am not debating that Russia has more or not because I am positive they do. America also has Canada (which has a magnanimous amount of resources) as a friend, and we may be forming a new alliance with them.

About Russia and Europe. No, Europeans will not choose Russia over the US anytime soon. Of course in years and years from now, it may be possible. But do you really think the US will allow Russia to just influence the world, so they can like them better? I have spoke to Europeans who are apprehensive about relations with Russia, especially Russia's control over a lot of their energy supplies.

I have read people say that China will be at the same footing as America militarily eventually because they are growing...Well what do you think America is doing, twiddling their thumbs? I am sure that 52% of the world's defense spending is going somewhere. It is common sense. China is at military point B. America is at military point F. China goes to point C or D next year. America goes to point G or H.

Russia still has quite a few economic problems, political problems, health problems, and they fell back a little after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Like you said, they are trying to build up their economy again, and I am sure they will be successful. Let's just hope there are no arms races though.

If there is, nobody will be friends. Except US&UK no doubt.

About Russia and Europe. No, Europeans will not choose Russia over the US anytime soon. Of course in years and years from now, it may be possible. But do you really think the US will allow Russia to just influence the world, so they can like them better? I have spoke to Europeans who are apprehensive about relations with Russia, especially Russia's control over a lot of their energy supplies.

Why not? i meen i live here in Europe and travel allot. I hear and see wat people think of russia and wat the think about US. most busnesses go to russia allot of people saying that US is just a bunch of liers..and No one blives them anymore.
Russia doesnt have the simbol of a "LIER/manipulator"

I have read people say that China will be at the same footing as America militarily eventually because they are growing...Well what do you think America is doing, twiddling their thumbs? I am sure that 52% of the world's defense spending is going somewhere. It is common sense. China is at military point B. America is at military point F. China goes to point C or D next year. America goes to point G or H.

Now lets go back to history...I like it allot cos you can learn from it. WWI and WWII
wat did they learn us?

Napolion and Germany had the best armie in the whole world, best traned man best everything..Look at tanks and rifles Germans had..sheesh mother god they were 10 times better then any other.

And wat happened Poor old russia with rusty guns and hungry people beat the # out of them both....There goes youre 100billion or trillion armie to hell...and why? money cant buy you patritism.

Originally posted by Vitali

About Russia and Europe. No, Europeans will not choose Russia over the US anytime soon. Of course in years and years from now, it may be possible. But do you really think the US will allow Russia to just influence the world, so they can like them better? I have spoke to Europeans who are apprehensive about relations with Russia, especially Russia's control over a lot of their energy supplies.

Why not? i meen i live here in Europe and travel allot. I hear and see wat people think of russia and wat the think about US. most busnesses go to russia allot of people saying that US is just a bunch of liers..and No one blives them anymore.
Russia doesnt have the simbol of a "LIER/manipulator"

I have read people say that China will be at the same footing as America militarily eventually because they are growing...Well what do you think America is doing, twiddling their thumbs? I am sure that 52% of the world's defense spending is going somewhere. It is common sense. China is at military point B. America is at military point F. China goes to point C or D next year. America goes to point G or H.

Now lets go back to history...I like it allot cos you can learn from it. WWI and WWII
wat did they learn us?

Napolion and Germany had the best armie in the whole world, best traned man best everything..Look at tanks and rifles Germans had..sheesh mother god they were 10 times better then any other.

And wat happened Poor old russia with rusty guns and hungry people beat the # out of them both....There goes youre 100billion or trillion armie to hell...and why? money cant buy you patritism.

First off, just because the American government and policies are not looked on favorably, does not mean that influences business. They go to where they can make money. And you saying they would rather do business with Russia other than the US cause they we are "liars", is bs. And I have heard with my own ears, that Europeans don't trust Russia especially after using resources to influence foreign policy.

And Russia's army did not have rusty old guns. Where do you get this stuff? There are many reasons why the Russian army pushed back the Germans. Google it.

[edit on 10-7-2006 by RetinoidReceptor]

First off, just because the American government and policies are not looked on favorably, does not mean that influences business. They go to where they can make money. And you saying they would rather do business with Russia other than the US cause they we are "liars", is bs. And I have heard with my own ears, that Europeans don't trust Russia especially after using resources to influence foreign policy.

And Russia's army did not have rusty old guns. Where do you get this stuff? There are many reasons why the Russian army pushed back the Germans. Google it.

Ofcorse it influincess bussness why did you think dollar dropped dramaticly when US invaded Iraq. Well i do not know where you live but i listen to russian and European politiks every day. I have both chanels.


And Russian army did have that....at start....and where i heared it..I'm Russian born there an now living in Holland.

my grandfather was in berlin witht the first wave and he survived the whole war.

So i have a first persons vieuw and allot of his comrades to tell me what and how they fought.

i just want to say that the idea US has that they are way inferior to other is just such a load of crap.

Originally posted by nukunuku

my my arent we full of ourselves....
hats down to anyone who think he got it right

Well thats typical in here though...

Lemme take a crack at it.. The Russians are not really against us putting weapons up there, but for the Press they have to make it LOOK like they are... Just look at all the cooperation between Russia and US in space right now. And Pizza Hut and Lego just signed contracts with Russia for Space Contracts.

They don't have the money, so if they postulate a little, we make concessions, ever one goes home happy... BTW that went on during the cold war too...

Its about time we put some serious defense stuff up there. With all the talk about Aliens in these rooms, I am surprized anyone is against it. If even one of these races is hostile, we BETTER have something to throw at em...

Of course some believe we already have a space fleet... but thats another story

BTW Russia is running a tourist in space thing... seems they really took capitalism to heart... 10 days in Space 20 Million I believe a Japanese Millionaire will be the 4th passenger.... [Now why didn't Nasa think of that?]

[edit on 10-7-2006 by zorgon]

Originally posted by maloy
Can somebody post the sources specifying that US petroleum resources are larger than those of Russia. As I heard from Western sources, Russian petroleum resources are second only to Saudi Arabia- and even that statistic could be wrong because much of potential oil fields in Russia have yet to be explored.

It is estimated that the Athabasca Tar Sands contain approximately one third of the world's total oil deposits

Better be nice to those crazy Cannucks Thats only one area

SOURCE

Here is a pretty good source for proven world reserves

LOTS OF OIL HERE

If the Middle East has been a desert throughout history, and oil really is a fossil fuel made from plants... how come there is so much oil in the desert?

[edit on 10-7-2006 by zorgon]

Originally posted by Vitali

First off, just because the American government and policies are not looked on favorably, does not mean that influences business. They go to where they can make money. And you saying they would rather do business with Russia other than the US cause they we are "liars", is bs. And I have heard with my own ears, that Europeans don't trust Russia especially after using resources to influence foreign policy.

And Russia's army did not have rusty old guns. Where do you get this stuff? There are many reasons why the Russian army pushed back the Germans. Google it.

Ofcorse it influincess bussness why did you think dollar dropped dramaticly when US invaded Iraq. Well i do not know where you live but i listen to russian and European politiks every day. I have both chanels.


And Russian army did have that....at start....and where i heared it..I'm Russian born there an now living in Holland.

my grandfather was in berlin witht the first wave and he survived the whole war.

So i have a first persons vieuw and allot of his comrades to tell me what and how they fought.

i just want to say that the idea US has that they are way inferior to other is just such a load of crap.

The dollar did not inflate because European businesses took their business out and invested in Europe when the Iraqi war started! There are many reasons, one being Iraq is a oil producer, and economies on dependent on that. So instability in any of those countries will create economic problems.

And seriously, you need to google. Russians didn't only have old rusty guns. I'll make it easier for you:

www.google.com

I'll give you a few hints:

The climate in Russia
Allied support
Russia not only having rusty old guns

I think you didnt get my point, i sayed we won the war even using rusty old guns...OFCORSE we had other factors...but i just wanted to point out that you dont need supormodern weaponry to win a war.....it does help though

i dont know how you read my post lol...i sayed war influencess Economy and you say it doesnt...well its pointless to explain to you why it does then....
There are way better people for this job.

Originally posted by Vitali
I think you didnt get my point,

Well I for one did see your point. Determination is a very big factor to overcome superior odds. It doesn't matter if the guns are rusty or your using pitch forks...

But forgive me, no offense intended, but when I read your posts... I have never heard a Russian accent in print before... its marvelous, its like I can hear you speak...[shoot me if I'm mistaken]

I would like your opinion on my statement that the media reported posturing between Russia and the US is really just that, and not a return to Cold War like tactics. That behind the scenes the two countrys are a lot "closer" than most might believe...

My father was sent to the Russian front... he had made a joke about Hitler and was over heard by an officer... Superior weapons never crossed his mind out there in the field.

Originally posted by Vitali
I think you didnt get my point, i sayed we won the war even using rusty old guns...OFCORSE we had other factors...but i just wanted to point out that you dont need supormodern weaponry to win a war.....it does help though

i dont know how you read my post lol...i sayed war influencess Economy and you say it doesnt...well its pointless to explain to you why it does then....
There are way better people for this job.

No What you said was: And wat happened Poor old russia with rusty guns and hungry people beat the # out of them both....

Sure patriotism and determination helped a lot. But according to you, that is why they won the war, because according to you, they only had rusty guns and no food with a lot of patriotism. Sorry, it isn't true. It is a nice bed time story though. There were other factors that played a hell of a more important role.

And no I never said war didn't influence the economy? Can you quote? Because I remember typing that the war in Iraq did make the dollar and markets drop due to instability in that region. What you said, that Europeans would rather do business with Russia over the US because they say, "They are liars". Which again, is bs my friend. Economics are blind and deaf in morals.

And no, you can bet that people who know about Russia using resources as foreign policy (such as stopping the flow to Ukraine), do NOT trust Russia over America. But whatever, think what you like.

[edit on 10-7-2006 by RetinoidReceptor]

The thing is US is trying real hard to keep Europe on its side. Under Bush a huge propaganda campaign was coupled with the War On Terror, to assure Europe America is not just using its police force to ensure successful globalization of the world in its favor (which it is actually). Russia was accussed of terrorizing world with ITS OWN OIL AND GAS. Russia was accussed of helping NK and Iran. Russia is described as authoritative regime, which it is not.

Well the oil/gas scenario- its been talked about alot. Its Russian oil, and its Russian gas. It belongs to Russia. Russia is the seller- thus it sets the price. You don't like the price- well guess what- you don't have to buy it. And of course it sells cheaper to its friends, than to states which betrayed it despite being friends and allies throughout history (Ukraine). US does the exact same thing, but no one pays attention. US cut off oil supplies to North Korea under Bush, which is why NK resumed work on its nuclear energy. And it had the right to do it because their are American oil supplies. Similarly no one can dictate to Russia what it wants to do with its resources. This isn't some minor nation at which you can bark out orders. Truth is Europe depends on Russian energy, and if this energy is suddenly cut off EU economy will start starving, dragging down US economy as well. This is so because most of the energy resources in the world are already being exploited to full capacity, and there is no extra energy available without large price.

This is why some smart European countries like Germany, Italy, and Turkey are making their own contracts with Russia to ensure their supplies aren't cut short because of middle nations. In fact Germany, China, and Turkey all have multi billion dollar pipelines under constructions with Russia. These alone will bring tens of billions of dollars to Russia annually.

It is true that Eu is not likely to chose to side with Russia over the US. But they depend far more on Russia now than they do on US. The only place Russian economy is going is up, and its influence around the world is also growing similarly fast. Because US ignored most of South America due to WOT, leftists such as Chavez came to power, and are starting to develop strong ties with Russia. And guess what- US cannot do a thing about it. And if you think weapons in space is the answer- you are deeply mistaken.
- Just like during the cold war, Russia will also turn to putting weapons in space, only they will be more numerous and cost cheaper than American ones. Ultimately both sides will end up throwing away hundreds of billions of dollars, and the world will be as balanced as it is now, only twice as dangerous of a place to live.

Originally posted by maloy
The thing is US is trying real hard to keep Europe on its side. Under Bush a huge propaganda campaign was coupled with the War On Terror, to assure Europe America is not just using its police force to ensure successful globalization of the world in its favor (which it is actually). Russia was accussed of terrorizing world with ITS OWN OIL AND GAS. Russia was accussed of helping NK and Iran. Russia is described as authoritative regime, which it is not.

Wait so are you saying that Russia isn't helping NK and Iran? Because there is indeed proof that they are.

And nobody describes Russia as authoritative, YET. The regime under Putin is described as moving ever so slowly back to strong government, and a sort of "back to the USSR" in terms of government away from democracy. Of course, there needs to be more things going on in Russia before I believe that 100%. In any case I and many Americans don't care about that. Our government however does, which does not mean I think we have the right to dictate to others how to do things.

cfr.org...

What I really don't understand, is why Russia is so buddy buddy with China. Putin is a smart guy, and I know the last thing Russia wants is an advanced large military from China controlling things on one of their sides, and NATO controlling things on another one of their sides. Maybe it is just a friendship of convenience.

And yes, they are allowed to withold their resources. But it was driectly to influence Ukraine. Europe doesn't like that and they get unnerved by that. Anyone would.

I wish America and Russia could join together, and solve the world's problems. We really could together. If the US & Russia were like the US & UK are, there would be peace. But instead both are greedy for power. The story of the world.

Today on NPR, I heard that China was testing a new rocket with the goal of setting up
a base on the moon.

Perhaps this is why GWB wants to raise funds for a moon base?

Here's what Reuters had to say.

today.reuters.com...

BEIJING (Reuters) - China has successfully tested a new rocket engine to power the country's ambitious program of manned space flights and moon landings, the official Xinhua news agency reported on Monday.

Tests of the liquid hydrogen- and kerosene-fuelled engine were a "complete success", a spokesperson from the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation told Xinhua.

With maximum propulsion of 120 tonnes, the new engine is three times more powerful than those currently used by China's Long March rockets.

The engine will propel a new-generation rocket able to sling heavy satellites and moon exploration equipment into orbit, experts told Xinhua. The report did not say when the new rocket engine would go into service.


In 2003, China became only the third country -- after the United States and Soviet Union -- to launch a man into space aboard its own rocket. In October, it sent two men into orbit, and another manned orbit is slated for 2007.

A top official in China's space program said last month that China plans its first moonwalk for 2024, cementing its position as a new space power.

The mission would kick off in earnest next year, when China launches an unmanned lunar satellite in March or April to orbit and survey the lunar surface, a mainland-backed Hong Kong newspaper reported.

[edit on 10-7-2006 by FallenFromTheTree]

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Wait so are you saying that Russia isn't helping NK and Iran? Because there is indeed proof that they are.

Yes Russia is helping both. The help to NK is not military for the most part however (if it was you would think the missile fired a week ago wouldn't fail).

But the problem is US is accussing Russia of helping them. Who says Russia can't help them, and who says they have bad intentions? Only because these countries are on the "Axis of Evil" list (which itself is a farce)? Well guess what- America support some of the worst regimes in the world (like Musharraf in Pakistan). America supported a ton of harsh dictators in South America and around the world, and it has no right telling Russia who it can and cannot support.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
What I really don't understand, is why Russia is so buddy buddy with China. Putin is a smart guy, and I know the last thing Russia wants is an advanced large military from China controlling things on one of their sides, and NATO controlling things on another one of their sides. Maybe it is just a friendship of convenience.

Their friendship is more out of necessity. US used the War On Terror to spread its influence and control around the world more than it ever had. Iraq, Afganistan, Ukraine, Poland, Baltics, Moldova, Georgia, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, and Phillipines are among the countries that America "colonized" or established stronger military ties with, even though most of them have nothing to do with Al Quida. A lot of these countries are positioned around Russia, and were their past allies. Also the Middle Eastern countries America is eyeing right now (Iran/Syria) were about to increase resource exports to China. Also American military budget is over 50% of the entire world's. Both Russia and China (and India- also can be called an ally of Russia) feel uneasy about this increasing American presence around the world. So they formed this loose alliance. China needs constant imports of Russian resources, while Russia needs constant inflow of money to feed its growing economy. China and Russia might not always be friends, but I doubt they will turn on each other in the next few decades. Their main focus is the US, so this partnership seems obvious.

yes America has a right to influence the world because it can in my opinion, and has done this globalization since WW II. but do not be surprised when half the world starts hating you because you don't give a sh*t about anyone besides your European buddies.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
And yes, they are allowed to withold their resources. But it was driectly to influence Ukraine. Europe doesn't like that and they get unnerved by that. Anyone would.

Who cares if Europe is worried. I think the rest of the world should be more unnerved about Europe. After all both World Wars started there. Most of the problems in the world today exist because of European empires back in the day (look at Africa). Europe screwed the world for hundreds of years. Europe gave rise to some of the worst dictatorships (Hitler / Mussolini / Franco), and of course fascism. And it is currently seemingly on the brink of racial conflict (France, Britain, Netherlands). Europe should mind its own problems- it has plenty.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
I wish America and Russia could join together, and solve the world's problems. We really could together. If the US & Russia were like the US & UK are, there would be peace. But instead both are greedy for power. The story of the world.

Will never happen. As good as it sounds, it is impossible. Machiavellian theory states that it is a big mistake for one strong nation to be allies with another strong nation, unless they got a common stronger enemy. One of the two is bound to betray the other.

Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
Today on NPR, I heard that China was testing a new rocket with the goal of setting up
a base on the moon.

Perhaps this is why GWB wants to raise funds for a moon base?

China has far more money than it knows what to do with. It quickly needs to invest its gigantic surplus, or it could hinder their currency and economic progress. They are looking for anything to invest in (which is why they are buying stocks/investing throughout the world). The space program can actually further China's technological expertise, which is not on par with US or Russia yet, and is a sound investment. This is more about scientific and engineering research than about militarizing space.


US on the other hand needs to think about how to save its economy and the dollar- not a new space race. This is not the 60's when US had tons of money at its disposal. Perhaps some money should go to develop the new Space Shuttle. But colonizing the moon is a completely idiotic idea, especially with hundreds of billions of dollars already going down the drain with Iraq. Does US have a shortage of accountants, or is it that no one cares about the future?

The US has to militarize space and control it before the commies do it. That is what they fear that they will not be in control and their master system may lose out. Not that socialism make many people happy anywhere anyways.

[kicking the computer] darn double posts...

[edit on 11-7-2006 by zorgon]

Originally posted by maloy
Who cares if Europe is worried. I think the rest of the world should be more unnerved about Europe.

Very well put. Europe has a long, and bloody, History of medling with the world.

Will never happen. As good as it sounds, it is impossible.

I think the current situation is much better if we could maintain it, mutual respect, healthy distrust, and cooperation when it counts. I think the rivalry that exists between the two nations will keep the balance, provided another Stalin doesn't come into the picture. All through the Cold War American culture has depicted this hidden camaraderie behind political posturing in movies like James Bond. Its evident today in the space program... for one and I am sure you can find many more sample if you look.

Just today I heard on Nevada Public Radio that the Russians are offering to buy our Nuclear waste... that in fact US has been spending upwards of 80 million on improving the Russian storage facilities just for this.... hmmmm I smell a new thread here


NEW THREAD

[edit on 11-7-2006 by zorgon]

Well I for one did see your point. Determination is a very big factor to overcome superior odds. It doesn't matter if the guns are rusty or your using pitch forks...

But forgive me, no offense intended, but when I read your posts... I have never heard a Russian accent in print before... its marvelous, its like I can hear you speak...[shoot me if I'm mistaken

]

I would like your opinion on my statement that the media reported posturing between Russia and the US is really just that, and not a return to Cold War like tactics. That behind the scenes the two countrys are a lot "closer" than most might believe...

My father was sent to the Russian front... he had made a joke about Hitler and was over heard by an officer... Superior weapons never crossed his mind out there in the field.

Well We finaly agree on something..

As for my background..i'm really multicultural working for an Japanees company atm so thats why my english germand dutch and russian are all so fluent