Explosions underneath the WTC Towers b4 they collapsed

HowardRoark: your description of the seismographic evidence is totally wrong. The graph I referred to in my post is identical to the one you commented upon, only it is not in colour. So don't accuse me of not researching the data when we are both discussing the SAME data! Let me correct you: the red lines are NOT expanded versions of the black lines. The red lines denote the shocks of the two planes hits and the black lines denote the shocks of the two collapses. My point still stands. I will take you slowly through the argument again so that you will hopefully understand this time. Look at the relatively HUGE spike (black lines) at the BEGINNING of the collapse for each tower. How come it is so much bigger than all the shocks created by the actual collapse? This can be due only to a shock that was NOT caused by the collapse, for the collapse had not started at the time this huge spike was recorded! This is scientific PROOF of the shock associated with the many simultaneous detonations that caused each tower to collapse. There is no alternative explanation.

Deny stupidity, HowardRoark.

"There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see."

Originally posted by billybob
no. that is investigating. and if most people reach the same speculation, given a data set, then chances are pretty good that they are right. if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, etc...
giving no information(ie. ALLEGED terrorist osama bin laden), and filling in only the blanks is what the mainstream media has been doing. THAT is speculating, and because it is disguised as 'news' that you can 'trust'(it's funny how many outlets started using that buzzword in their soundbytes and slogans in recent years), the masses fall for it hook, line, and sinker.

you have to ask yourself why, a collection of agencies, (all doing roughly the same job, ie. defending truth, justice, and the american way), don't trust each other. i can speculate. ....because they are all RIDDLED with CORRUPTION! one can not only imagine how deep the problems are between agencies, one can go to inthewilderness.com, and read about it.

i think you misunderstand the role of spies. they are not in the business of publishing secrets. they are in the business of keeping them. and if it is these same intel agencies that are causing all the problems, do you really think the 'investigation' by them would have any footing in reality, other than what is independently verifiable and obvious to joe public?

Filling in the blanks is what everyone does when they are not in posession of the full facts. If you are going to make accustations of high-treason, you had better have rock-solid evidence and an iron-clad case. As I said ealier, you, myself and Alex "off the meds" Jones are not in posession of those facts that leave gaps in the information. Using articles that suggest things rather than verify does not amount to the truth. Alex Jones has been speculating all along under the guise of his distorted and biased truth. Much like Rush Limbuagh.... Jones has his agenda as does Rush.

Coruption is in every facet of human life including our intelligence/ law enforcement agencies. That is too simplistic of an answer to explain problems of cooperation between agencies. I know from first hand experience that there is little love for the Feds by the NYPD and other law-enforcement agencies. How about trying different methods, rivalry and the all present ego problem of "who gets credit?" Then there is the case of incompetence or human error.

Spies have one function and that function is very clear.... That is to gather information that is advantageous their respective employers. Their employers than take that info and use it to the advantage and benefit of their interests. And it would be in Iran's and NK's best interests to uncover a US hand in 911. Choosing if and when to share such info(if such info even exsists) is another story. But all the money those countries put into spying and intelligence doesn't amount to beans when compared to Alex Jones!


I truly believe that 911 was a combination of it being:

1. it was unprecedented (prior to 911 how any jet-liners had been highjacked to be used as suicide weapons? NONE)

2. gross incompetence (FBI, CIA, NSA and the Bush Administration's failure to take notice of warnings and suspicious behavior of certain individuals)

3. Info denial in order to cover their own asses. (see #2) They F'd up on their watch. Again, who gets the credit, who gets the blame comes into play.

my 2 cents

But then again, none of us really know, all we can do is speculate. And don't think for one second that Alex Jones knows more than you or me.... he might have more info than us, but he doesn't know what really happened either.

Originally posted by NeedTruth
Do you work for the government? You sure sound like it.

No I do not. I watched Mr. Jones's tape on a show and he came across a someone who might be in need of mental help.

Are you paranoid? You sure sound like it.

Originally posted by Facefirst

Originally posted by billybob

alex jones has the advantage of not being hindered by a chain of command of red tape and bureaucracy. has any mainstream outlet released his footage of bohemian grove?

Pressed for time at the moment, but yes, Alex Jones Bohemian Grove footage was on TV. I saw it. It did not look like much at all to me except for a bunch of rich businessmen blowing off steam and acting like frat-boys and Mr. Jones making a mountain out of a molehill. I hardly see how he risked his life to film it. By the end of the tape, I had to seriously question the state of Mr. Jones's mental-stability. He seemed outright delusional and paranoid. He also seemed to have a bitter ax to grind. Hardly the stance to keep an objective mind and outlook.

In short, he seemed like a jerk and loser badly in need of attention.

be back later

~Face

How can you dismiss the fact that a supposed 'Christian' president partakes in a function that contains strong pagean undertones and pass it off as a frat-boy get together. I dont know of any real 'Christians' that would or are in any gathering of the sort. I know for a fact that if I were to sneak into an area that Alex did and saw what he saw, I would sound a little paranoid also. I would think it was kind of shocking to find out our supposed 'Christian' president partakes in Santanic rituals.

Another example of the brainwashing that goes on in America. Someone clearly captures evidence on video and people dismiss it as a little fun.

That is exactly what Rush Limbaugh said about the Iraqi prison tortue. 'Just having a little fun and blowing off steam.' So when someone goes to your neighbors house and pulls them out the front door and beats them to death or close to it, we will all say 'They are just having a little fun. Dont be paranoid.'

Back to the boob-toob and zombie out.

Originally posted by Facefirst

Originally posted by NeedTruth
Do you work for the government? You sure sound like it.

No I do not. I watched Mr. Jones's tape on a show and he came across a someone who might be in need of mental help.

Are you paranoid? You sure sound like it.

Can't say that I am and neither am I neive nor blind of what is happening right before my eyes. Wake up and look at the big picture instead of dismissing everything that is not spoon fed to you by the government.

I'm still waiting for you or someone to disprove any one of Alex's factual stories. All I have seen so far is opinions without FACTS.

Bring me some FACTS and then we can continue with the conversation. Until then, I will sit back and respond only when I see those facts.

[Edited on 5-6-2004 by NeedTruth]

Originally posted by NeedTruth

~Face

How can you dismiss the fact that a supposed 'Christian' president partakes in a function that contains strong pagean undertones and pass it off as a frat-boy get together. I dont know of any real 'Christians' that would or are in any gathering of the sort. I know for a fact that if I were to sneak into an area that Alex did and saw what he saw, I would sound a little paranoid also. I would think it was kind of shocking to find out our supposed 'Christian' president partakes in Santanic rituals.

Another example of the brainwashing that goes on in America. Someone clearly captures evidence on video and people dismiss it as a little fun.

That is exactly what Rush Limbaugh said about the Iraqi prison tortue. 'Just having a little fun and blowing off steam.' So when someone goes to your neighbors house and pulls them out the front door and beats them to death or close to it, we will all say 'They are just having a little fun. Dont be paranoid.'

Back to the boob-toob and zombie out.

Blowing off some steam and torture are two entirely different things.... don't confuse the issue.

Don't know of any Christians? And I am sure you have not heard of the Child-Molesting Christian priests, the cover-up of those very same priests, the spanish inquisition and Papal indulgences??? Please.... the Christian excuse does not hold up. Regardless of religion, people do all kinds of things for fun, getting together and yes, for blowing off steam..... pagan undertones?

I think you are reading way too deep into it just as Alex Jones did.

Jones is paranoid. He snuck in there, interpeted the situation without really truely understanding what he was seeing. He asked some questions to some "stupid business men"(IIRC) and then proceeded to come up with his own conclusions. Conclusions that were lacking alot of facts. Now I do not understand all of it and am not going to say that what I think is gospel.... I just gave my interpetation of what Jones presented. That being said, how do you know Jones did not edit his film to fit his beliefs??? You don't.

Jeez, torture and blowing off steam? I gave Limbaugh as an example because he puts the facts and news through his "Rush~O~Prism" to get a desired effect as it seems Jones also does.

I was there. I was working for FDNY at the time. There were not "explosions" at the base of the WTC before the towers fell. The only thing that could have caused that is a couple of elevators that may have been stuck at one of the top floors that ended up comming down like an anvil or dibris comming down a shaft. Most likely the latter as the elevators were programmed to go to the lobby during an alarm triggered fire. but not enough to cause a 2.x unless equipment was directly in the vicinity.

Goodness - Now the question: Who to believe?

Originally posted by 1998OX4
I was there. I was working for FDNY at the time. There were not "explosions" at the base of the WTC before the towers fell.

Since you were working for the FDNY, you must have had a radio to communicate. What was on the firefighter�s radio recordings that was so SECRET that the government has confiscated and determined them classified?? Were you warned not to talk about it?

Inquiring minds want to know....

NeedTruth

Originally posted by NeedTruth

Just because you and other cannot read and see what is going on around you does not dismiss facts. I for one have opened up my eyes.

Obviously you cannot see the big picture before you. Try to factually disprove anything posted there instead of a blanket statement that they are all nuts and scared or whatever.

I'm not trying to start a dispute but open your eyes and keep and open mind and explore a little. It's right there in front of you. Wake up.....

Quite simple, looking at one of the points he tries to bring up, the supposed link between Bush and Osama because of the business Bush and some members of the Bin Laden family had....

This has already been mentioned before, the only link between Osama and those members of his family that have business with the west is the last name. No real evidence for a link has been presented between Osama and Bush working together...

Osama Bin Laden issued a thread to the House of Saud because of its ties to the west. Many members of the Bin Laden family have embraced the west, and some members were born, study and work in the States. When Osama issued this thread on the west and the House of Saud, he issued a thread to most of his family.

This man hates the west so much that he would kill his own family because they have embraced that which he hates. If you don't think that a man with such a radical belief can kill, or torture members of his family, then you don't understand the stance of radical Islamists and haven't even heard of the things they do to their own children because of their radical religious views.

Seeing how that site you posted tries to exagerate a link in this topic then probably the rest of the topics, or most of them, are also built on imaginary evidence.

BTW, the Bin Laden busines is a large one, they have main branches in Geneva and London. Most of the world have most probably made business with these people.

Ah, in response to your invitation to open my eyes like you..... No thank you, I am an open minded skeptic. I do not rely and make up my mind on a topic on the "opinions" and "imaginary evidence" others come up with, I prefer to do my own research and make my own mind instead of accepting every conspiracy theory there is out there on face value.


[edit on 7-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by micpsi
HowardRoark: your description of the seismographic evidence is totally wrong. The graph I referred to in my post is identical to the one you commented upon, only it is not in colour. So don't accuse me of not researching the data when we are both discussing the SAME data! Let me correct you: the red lines are NOT expanded versions of the black lines. The red lines denote the shocks of the two planes hits and the black lines denote the shocks of the two collapses. My point still stands. I will take you slowly through the argument again so that you will hopefully understand this time. Look at the relatively HUGE spike (black lines) at the BEGINNING of the collapse for each tower. How come it is so much bigger than all the shocks created by the actual collapse? This can be due only to a shock that was NOT caused by the collapse, for the collapse had not started at the time this huge spike was recorded! This is scientific PROOF of the shock associated with the many simultaneous detonations that caused each tower to collapse. There is no alternative explanation.

Deny stupidity, HowardRoark.

"There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see."

�The red lines denote the shocks of the two planes hits and the black lines denote the shocks of the two collapses.�

Uh, look again. One is an expanded view of the first impact, the other is an expanded view of the first collapse.

Here is an zoomed in view of the raw data. It clearly indicates that seismic activity from the collapse was well underway before the biggest impact from the collapse hit (i.e. when the falling mass of the top section of the towers hit the ground).

Your claim that �This is scientific PROOF � would be better supported if you could present your C.V. in the geological sciences so that we could be assured that you indeed understand the science behind the seismic data. Since I suspect that you are unable to do that I will be forced to consult other experts.

Oh, Look! Here is still another evaluation of the data. Too bad they do not see anything unusual with the data, and they are trained and experienced in evaluating this type of data.

In your view of events, not only are the legions of professional engineers world wide who have evaluated the data a part of the conspiracy, but also, it appears, that thousands of professional geologists and seismologists throughout the world are receiving NWO paychecks as well. Certainly �There is no alternative explanation� that would explain why no one with any professional standing or experience in the relevant fields has interpreted the data in the fashion that you suggest.

I just cant really see any other logical way its possible, there had to be explosives used, the amount of force and energy required to powder concrete, metal and other materials inside such huge colossal steel frame structures to fine micron scaled particles and eject them 60 meters clear of the structure just doesnt exist without them.

overall the structre seemed approx. about 25% damaged by the plane and fire before the collapse, below where the plane hit the floors had no damage and no fire. Yet, 10 seconds later nothing was there!

I mean come on, large thermal hot spots over 3000c burning away for months that required pouring massive amounts of water and special anti thermal foams to cool it down.. lol ya it just collapse right?



A still of the WTC collapse, that doesnt look like an explosion to you? Its very decieving as one person pointed out, that when you watch the video it doesnt look so much but thats the thing, explosions 'appear' to happen rather slowly on such a huge scale.

Originally posted by Insolubrious
A still of the WTC collapse, that doesnt look like an explosion to you? Its very decieving as one person pointed out, that when you watch the video it doesnt look so much but thats the thing, explosions 'appear' to happen rather slowly on such a huge scale.

So, what do you think happed to all the air inside the building?

The floor slabs were 4" thick. The floor to ceiling heights were 12'.

Where did all of that air go?

All the air went out the lobby!!

THE EXPLSIONS LASTED OVER THE ENTIRE TIME!!!!!

From the moment of impact untill collapse,a few after.Find one building ever demolished that way.Considdering ya'll seem to think,as I do . the second large explosion came from the bottom.I ask you why?Taking out the bottom early would only help topple.The squibs you speak of seem to go from top to bottom as it falls.That is pancake effect.Ejection follows of crushed debree.Squibs wire ignitions for the charges would be scattered all over the city if they were cutter charges.Doesn't take much of a detective to see that one.

Here is some info for ya.Hope ya read it!!!!

www.geocities.com...

Explosive detonations are set off in different orders, Duhh. "Conventional" demos (though all are unique) usually involve setting off charges at the main support structure at the base, then working their way up the building as it begins to fall.

Realize that explosive charges being set off at predetermined, different times (not all simultaneously) implies that this technology obviously exists. It's not an ability inherent to the explosives themselves, but (unless lighting fuses, etc. is done manually, which it probably won't be with today's technology) computers (like pyrotechnic shows), or at least electronic devices.

What would prevent someone with this technology from rigging a building with explosives, and then having the explosives detonate backwards -- from the top down -- to make the building appear as if it's just falling straight down onto itself?

Again, the order in which explosives detonate is not a property inherent to the explosives themselves. They are PROGRAMMED to go off in whatever order.

Maybe a better question is, if someone wanted a building to appear as though it was falling naturally onto itself, and had the technology described about, why wouldn't s/he rig explosives in such a way? Wouldn't that be the most obvious option? If explosives burst out anywhere else on the building besides the "collapse wave", it's going to be pretty obvious what's going on.

The fact that the building fell straight down does not indicate in itself whether or not explosives were used. It still could've happened either way, easily. Getting explosives to go off in whatever order you'd like wouldn't be a hard job, and using substances like thermite would make it that much harder to detect (which WOULD be a priority here).

Originally posted by Duhh
Squibs wire ignitions for the charges would be scattered all over the city if they were cutter charges.Doesn't take much of a detective to see that one.

You assume some kind of conventional demolition explosive. I don't.

You assume some kind of conventional demolition explosive. I don't.

I assume?By conventional you mean what? In the world we live in, controlled demolion is done by charges with some kind of detonation device,even thermite or mate,.If you have some info on another kind I am sure we would all love to hear about them.Please source the info.


"These Are Not The Droids Your Looking For"

[edit on 17-7-2006 by Duhh]

Realize that explosive charges being set off at predetermined, different times (not all simultaneously) implies that this technology obviously exists.

Diff times yes, over the course of an hour or better no.After the crash of the planes,you would have to know on the fly what charges to blow,hoping they don't go off on their own.Because of the damage you better get it right or your plan can go wrong quick.There is not a computer on the planet that could help with that calculation. Oh you could build models and have thousands of possibilities.Be able to pull that off , and get real lucky.Heard of Occams razor?Can you find a building demolished, that pancaked,that took more than 5 minutes?You start messing with the big G there, (gravity not god ),pretty tough to controll over a long period of time.When you take in the huge "bomb" explosion in the lobby,basement,etc,,,early in to the nitemare.It does not make sense on a basic level.What I am saying is you could not plan this to work like this.Why do I say that?Because to blow off all those charges so perfect,at least for your arguement,you would need to know the future.Heck,maybe ya do.Are ya a bett'en man?



"Thesea Are Not The Droids You're Looking For"

i just have one set of thoughts. How come they fell so fast? How and why did the whole building fail in such a dramatic way? and why did the building 7 fall in an identical way to the WTC and yet have no plane fly into it? AND be furthest away from the WTC AND be 'pulled' on the day? that suggests pre laid demo charges doesn't it?

I pray for those that died and for those who were there and had to see such tragedy, BUT there are alot of lies being told and maybe also some complicity going on.

Oh and I believe the fire fighters who were in the building when they say they heard bombs and explosions - they seem to be in a position to know what they were seeing and hearing.

Oh and I believe the fire fighters who were in the building when they say they heard bombs and explosions - they seem to be in a position to know what they were seeing and hearing.

Ok,show an example,link,source,to a fighter that believes there were bombs.Not explosions that sounded like bombs,as in similies,out of context,etc.......




"These Are Not The Droids You're Looking For"