Embryonic Stem Cells--- are we playing God?

Originally posted by WissNX01

Fruits and vegetables have living cells in them, so why is it okay to consume them? Christians are not consistent. The Christians who eat Bessie the Cow are responsible for destroying life, should the same moral judgement be bestowed on them?

Great point ! Was'nt the first commandment, Thou shalt not kill? ( not thou shalt not murder)

dictionary.reference.com...
dictionary.reference.com...

Two seperate things, completely. Hey Christians have never been consistent with their views though, how can we expect them to start after two thousand years

[edit on 16-5-2005 by phoenixhasrisin]

Animals dont have souls? How very human it it is to think that we are the only intelligent life in existance.

OHHHHH, this makes me so sad!

I can't believe what i am reading here. I guess i was just being naive. I NEVER knew there were so many people out there who have no sense of God, religion, or the peace it can bring. I mean, there have always been athiests and agnostics, however, if these threads are representative of how many people are like that today, well then

I don't know, I feel I am lucky in this way. (although THOSE of you out there who disagree with me, i know i know, i am NOT lucky right?)

Originally posted by seraph5
OHHHHH, this makes me so sad!

I can't believe what i am reading here. I guess i was just being naive. I NEVER knew there were so many people out there who have no sense of God, religion, or the peace it can bring. I mean, there have always been athiests and agnostics, however, if these threads are representative of how many people are like that today, well then

I don't know, I feel I am lucky in this way. (although THOSE of you out there who disagree with me, i know i know, i am NOT lucky right?)

With all due respect....WTF are you talking about?

This is common for Christians. The goofy ones have meltdowns if no one agrees with them. By the way, Seraph5 or whatever the hell your name is, I am a Christian, but I dont buy into the garbage about limiting science and technology cause some goofy bastard said that its wrong. This may be hard for you to believe, but I am a leader in a Pentecostal Church. I dont agree with the pastor on everything, and you know what, he doesnt care. He has his belief, I have mine, and its left at that. We agree on more than we disagree.

He voted against the Prop 71, while me and my wife voted for it. He wasnt informed, like you on what stem cell research means. Im not going to judge him, and hes not going to judge me. I think this is the only thing we have disagreed with over the years. He doesnt say Im going to hell or Im wrong, he just states his has a different opinion based on HIS interpretation.

In fact, our church is probably more mainstream than the other kooky pentecostal churches. We are not all radical and dancing and bouncing off walls and speaking in tounges and falling to the ground. That rarely happens, and when it does, its in an appropriate time and place. There is no show in our church. If you want some entertainment, I can suggest a few pentacostal churches that cracked me up. Sit through some of those with a straight face.

Christianity and Science are always at odds with each other, and I dont know why. We have the whacky Catholic Church condemn Galileo and leave it that way for 450 years. Its this thinking that makes me wonder how the heck we ever got out of the dark ages in the first place. By the way, Galileo was correct, and the Church was not, so it seems that science has its place.





[edit on 05/5/16 by WissNX01]

Actually the commandments are thus:

1. I AM THE LORD THY GOD, THOU SHALT NOT HAVE strange gods BEFORE ME.
2. THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN.
3. REMEMBER THOU KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH DAY.
4. HONOR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER.
5. THOU SHALT NOT KILL.
6. THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.
7. THOU SHALT NOT STEAL.
8. THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR.
9. THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE.
10. THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S GOODS.

But you were close.

Anyway, why do you feel so damn sad if your so lucky? So Heaven will be less crowded and Hell will be like Disneyland on a Saturday. Its just amazing where Christians will judge people, when it says plainly that that God only knows the heart of man. I dont care what my neighbor does, or do I care if what he does sends him to hell. Thats between him and God. Sure its my Christian duty to remind him of all the glory of God, but Im not going to harass him to the point where he despises Christianity. Thats the mistake alot of outreach and similar programs have.

I tell someone once about Jesus and the Kingdom of Heaven. IF he likes what he heres, great; If not, great. I did my duty by telling others of Jesus. It doesnt say go and tounge lash them constantly. The JWs that come to my door seem to have figured this out, since they dont knock on my door. I have talked to them, they have talked to me, and either one of us was going to give, and they realized this. Christians like to judge other religions like JWs and Mormons, but Christians are the same in alot of aspects. The JWs will come to your door, but they are not going to get violent. If a Christian comes to your door, you better be carrying a sidearm, cause your going to need it. Christians are suppose to use the Gifts of the Spirit, sound familiar, Seraph5? One of those is compassion. Have the compassion to leave someone alone.

Im not fundamentalist. I have no problem in integrating the benifits of society into my own religious views. Inventions can be considered Gifts from God. God has blessed people to invent things, but Christians cant seem to comprehend the simple aspects of thier own beliefs. They pick and choose to suit thier arguement, and ignore what they cannot fit it.

Playing God are we? I hardly think so, if anything, we're playing our part as humans, curiously tampering with science to further abette our chances of survival. Not God, just Human.

Catholocism can dissent such endevours all it wants, this is still an institution that will not admit it's own faults, lies, manipulation, and dogmatism. A stem cell is not more a human than a sperm, it's nowhere near the conscious level as you and I.

Christians will complain about such trivial deaths, yet vote in a leader whose idea of bringing democracy to countries comes in a 5 tonne bomb.

Deep

Christians will complain about such trivial deaths, yet vote in a leader whose idea of bringing democracy to countries comes in a 5 tonne bomb.

I hope it is a 5 MegaTon bomb instead.........

Exactly, Christians are not consistant. We have the ability to think for ourselves and prolong life, but Christians are against this. Hypocracy at its very best.

Originally posted by WissNX01
Actually the commandments are thus:

Whatever number it is, why do you feel the need to list them all?

I can remove them..........but lets leave them for the whacko Christians. It seems to make them happy.

Originally posted by WissNX01
I can remove them..........but lets leave them for the whacko Christians. It seems to make them happy.

Fair enough

Originally posted by WissNX01


If anyone hasnt noticed, science and medicine cannot determine when life has begun. Christians on the other hand, have it all figured out.

Fruits and vegetables have living cells in them, so why is it okay to consume them? Christians are not consistent. The Christians who eat Bessie the Cow are responsible for destroying life, should the same moral judgement be bestowed on them?

Good point men and women of science have trouble determining when life has begun. So go to the creator of life, God. He tells us it begins at conception.

Fruits and veges don't have souls and animals don't have a spirit.

Originally posted by WissNX01
Actually the commandments are thus:

1. I AM THE LORD THY GOD, THOU SHALT NOT HAVE strange gods BEFORE ME.
2. THOU SHALT NOT TAKE THE NAME OF THE LORD THY GOD IN VAIN.
3. REMEMBER THOU KEEP HOLY THE SABBATH DAY.
4. HONOR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER.
5. THOU SHALT NOT KILL.
6. THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.
7. THOU SHALT NOT STEAL.
8. THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR.
9. THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S WIFE.
10. THOU SHALT NOT COVET THY NEIGHBOR'S GOODS.

But you were close.

You are a leader in a church and you think that is a list of the ten commandments? That is sad. FYI you left out the second commandment and split the tenth into two. Check out Exodus chapter 20 if you need further clarification.

Steve

I got them off the internet quickly, which is more than anyone else ponied up

Originally posted by WissNX01
I got them off the internet quickly, which is more than anyone else ponied up

The rest of us:

1. knew them
2. didn't abuse them
3. and were too whacky to help ya.

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin

Originally posted by seraph5
OHHHHH, this makes me so sad!

I can't believe what i am reading here. I guess i was just being naive. I NEVER knew there were so many people out there who have no sense of God, religion, or the peace it can bring. I mean, there have always been athiests and agnostics, however, if these threads are representative of how many people are like that today, well then

I don't know, I feel I am lucky in this way. (although THOSE of you out there who disagree with me, i know i know, i am NOT lucky right?)

With all due respect....WTF are you talking about?

You want to know what I am talking about? Alright.

All I am trying to say is that you are all going to go to hell for your beliefs. Your are Godless, evil, and destined to burn in the firery inferno for eternity. So beware, you have been judged.............. haha. JUST FREAKIN KIDDING!

What do you think I mean? I cannot have a concern for the lack of religion in this country without seeming like a judgemental, "wacko" Christian?

That's ridiculous. ALL I HAVE STATED IS THAT I (YOU SEE, I SAID "I") BELIEVE THAT A BABY HAS A SOUL UPON CONCEPTION. Due to this belief, I think exploiting things like abortions, in vitro fertilization, and whatever else they come up with in the future that involves using fetuses as stem cell sources is wrong. This is my belief.

I have also stated that there are other means of isolating stem cells that I have no beef with. Umbilical cords, hair follicles, adult stem cells of all types, and yes, even miscarried babies by choice of the mother. There are (oh, I don't even know so we'll just say a lot) a lot of babies born in this country every year. We only need a few stem cells to get the process going, so why not use their umbilical cords instead. This is a very controversial subject because 1. unlike some, people have a religion and this religion has guidelines that have been put forth to keep us on the "right " path 2. even non religious people have a problem with this 3. no one can prove or disporve a soul, yet.

So, some are saying that we (the religious zealots) have held back humanity and we (as a species) would be so much further if the religious "wackos" had stepped out of the way. Ya, that sounds great. I mean, why the heck should there be any rules or consequences for our actions? We are supreme and have every right to do whatever we please. There is no authority over us, we listen to no one.

And, you know what I think is REALLLLLLLLYYY funny? I'll tell you. Many of you sit here and say that Christians and Catholics stand upon our oh so high pedestals of pride and look down on all of the nonbelievers. We judge you, we think we are better than you. However, who are the people stating derogatory statements like "wacko Christians" and such? If you look back on the other responses, count how many insulting things were said on both sides and then YOU tell me who is the judgemental ones here.


I cannot say if you are going to hell. I am not God. I cannot and do not want to judge you. It is not my place. So, i am putting forth an opinion that many have. Deal with it.

[edit on 17-5-2005 by seraph5]

Originally posted by WissNX01
This is common for Christians. The goofy ones have meltdowns if no one agrees with them. By the way, Seraph5 or whatever the hell your name is, I am a Christian, but I dont buy into the garbage about limiting science and technology cause some goofy bastard said that its wrong. This may be hard for you to believe, but I am a leader in a Pentecostal Church. I dont agree with the pastor on everything, and you know what, he doesnt care. He has his belief, I have mine, and its left at that. We agree on more than we disagree.

He voted against the Prop 71, while me and my wife voted for it. He wasnt informed, like you on what stem cell research means. Im not going to judge him, and hes not going to judge me. I think this is the only thing we have disagreed with over the years. He doesnt say Im going to hell or Im wrong, he just states his has a different opinion based on HIS interpretation.

In fact, our church is probably more mainstream than the other kooky pentecostal churches. We are not all radical and dancing and bouncing off walls and speaking in tounges and falling to the ground. That rarely happens, and when it does, its in an appropriate time and place. There is no show in our church. If you want some entertainment, I can suggest a few pentacostal churches that cracked me up. Sit through some of those with a straight face.

Christianity and Science are always at odds with each other, and I dont know why. We have the whacky Catholic Church condemn Galileo and leave it that way for 450 years. Its this thinking that makes me wonder how the heck we ever got out of the dark ages in the first place. By the way, Galileo was correct, and the Church was not, so it seems that science has its place.





[edit on 05/5/16 by WissNX01]

Testy testy. Get a little riled up?

So then, what do you believe? What pieces have you picked out of the Bible, approved, and chosen to back up as "truth"?

Seems to me that a "Christian", (by the way, I am one of those wacky Catholics) since they believe in God, believe in the existance of souls, believe in heaven and hell, would also believe that a baby has a soul and thus ESCs are not God's will.

I agree that the Catholic church has tried to hold back science, has persuecuted scientists like Glaileo (who by the way was an active Catholic ), and all in the name of God. However, this was due to a common human fault. We want to believe that we are special, God's chosen special creations. To say that the world was round made the belief that heaven was up and hell was down obsolete. the new theory that the earth revolved around the sun took humans out of the center of the universe. However, DO NOT JUDGE A RELIGION BY STUPID ACTIONS OF ITS MEMEBERS. Religion is more than that. Religion is a relationship with God, and people tend to use religion to judge and to justify. However, this is not what religion teaches. It teaches us to be tolerant and love thy negihbor and all that good stuff. You can't judge an entire group of people (a HUGE group I might add) based on the actions of a few individuals.


And, I don't understand if you think Christians are "wacko", why are you a Christian or claim to be? Seems to me like you don't hold the members of your own congregation in too high of esteem.

[edit on 17-5-2005 by seraph5]

And please, all of you who are comparing the consumption of animals, fruits, and vegetables to the "Thou shalt not kill", give me a break.




Everyone knows that the ten commandments were directed at people for people. God was NOT talking about animals and plants. He gave us rule over the earth to live off of. I think that is one of the sillliest arguments against religion I have EVER heard.

Originally posted by seraph5
According to the Catholic religion, a baby receives a soul at the point of conception. Not two weeks, two months, or even after it is born. AT THE POINT OF CONCEPTION! So we are sanctioning the nationwide masacre of innocents.

Seraph5, I agree that the baby has a soul right from the point of conception and I am also strongly against abortion. However, seeing that the ESC research is being already so successful, it can and it will make big difference in this world. I believe that by using ESCs from aborted babies, we are defeating the evil, using it for good cause. With this I don’t want to sound like I’m encouraging women to have abortions, because I’m not. And it would be horrible if a woman justified this sin by saying that it will be for a good cause. However, there are so many aborted babies out there that go to trash anyways. It would be disappointing to see them go into waste, if they could save a life of another person.

I think ESCs will become a very powerful tool and I’m not really the one to decide if it’s morally wrong or acceptable. Everybody has their own beliefs and I completely understand if they are against ESC research.

Very well put midnight fairy. I do see your point and i like the idea of "defeating this evil" with the good of ESC research and applications. However, I am just afraid that if we use aborted babies, that this will just fuel or justify this act. I tend not to always trust human nature, we have a tendency that when there is any cause for justification, we take it to make what we are doing seem right.

As you can all probably guess, I am not too fond of abortions either. So, why not use the umbilical cords, even the placenta can be used from what I have heard, and these are also two other sources of stem cells that are jsut being thrown out. It would be much more socially acceptable to do it this way too.