Embryonic Stem Cells--- are we playing God?

Originally posted by WissNX01
The stupidity of Christians is amazing.

I'm also trying to understand this. I state my view on something. Your response is I'm stupid.

You state your view on something, and I don't feel the need to call you names.

Why is that?

if playing God is trying to prolong life and save many, then so too is resuscitation; innoculation; treatment for cancer and other known killers; organ transplants, et cetera.

Every single one of those are interventions by man intended to save and or prolong lives, therefore by definition of those who would isolate any one treatment, it is playing God.

But the thought process should be: Does man play God and prolong life longer than God intended, if so, how is that possible? In other words, those who hold this opinion need to seriously take a look at their beliefs, in that; does God decide when we die, or does man? And is it possible for man to override God's will?

Originally posted by mrwupy
You have voted phoenixhasrisin for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Thank you very much

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
But the thought process should be: Does man play God and prolong life longer than God intended, if so, how is that possible? In other words, those who hold this opinion need to seriously take a look at their beliefs, in that; does God decide when we die, or does man? And is it possible for man to override God's will?

What if God gave us this brain to use? What if God wants us to use our brain to figure out how to prolong our lives? Amongst other things.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by WissNX01
I'm not saying all Christians, just fundamentalists. They are no different than the Taliban or the mullahs in Iran

So, I don't think hands and heads should be chopped off of people who don't share my beliefs. So how am I like the taliban or mullahs? They also say become muslim or we kill you. Change your mind about being a muslim and we'll kill you or ostracize and/or persecute you.

Christianity is a choice. You can become one or not it's up to you. I can't make you become one because it's a choice of the heart and mind and an act of your will.

No, but thinking that certain research should be banned because it doesnt fit into your moral beliefs is akin to killing someone because they dont share your view. If it was decided by you, you would ban stem cell research. By doing so, you would be responsible for killing people because they dont share your belief.

This isnt about Muslim or Christian. The original thinking of this post was someone asking if stem cell research is playing God. Fortunatly, consideration for God and our interpretation of what He wants is ignored for the benifit of man. Jesus said help thy self, and that is what science is doing. For the times when medicine and science dont work, then a miracle can come into play.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by WissNX01
The stupidity of Christians is amazing.

I'm also trying to understand this. I state my view on something. Your response is I'm stupid.

You state your view on something, and I don't feel the need to call you names.

Why is that?

I didnt say your stupid, just that some Christians are stupid. Christianity is flawed due to the fact that the Christians themselves cannot see past the Bible.

And to go back to saying that Muslims are responsible for chopping of heads and hands for not believing in thier system, remember the Crusades. Remember the multiple invasions by the Roman Catholic Church to force thier will on others. Looking at it objectivly, Christians themselves are responsible for millions of deaths over two thousand years. History has recorded this.

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin[What if God gave us this brain to use? What if God wants us to use our brain to figure out how to prolong our lives? Amongst other things.

I believe that he did do just that, which is why I ask the question. The majority of those opposed to this research would not even blink an eye to a heart transplant for either themself or a loved one, or even medical intervention for the treatment of a deadly disease which in days of old would have killed them. I think if we were to take a poll of those against stem cell research, we would find the majority if not all of those opposed do not have a loved one wasting away.

Perhaps what the U.S needs is a compulsory questionnaire on every driver's licence which requires a response to this question:

In the event of a life-threatening matter I place my recovery in the hands of A) God B) Medical practices.

And this issue would die.

[edit on 5/16/05 by SomewhereinBetween]

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin

Originally posted by seraph5
In vitro fertilization, welll, it is a stretch from my beliefs, however, it is to help a mother have a child, the child is born (hate the fact that it takes so many tries though). It is for a person who wants to raise and love a child, it is not used as a "resource", although these days, they do want to use the "failed" babies in stem cells research.

So "playing god" is o.k sometimes? LMFAO!

Like when women (whom "god" made infertile), want to have babies, it's ok to defy his will? (god made her infertile right?) Everytime a defibrillator shocks a flatlines heart back to life, are we playing god then? (heart stopped=death, defibrillator=raising the dead?) What about our cures for disease? In days of old they were called plagues, and were sent from God. So are we then defying his will when we attempt to cure ourselves?(no theraflu dear god is mad at you)

Coming from an aspiring doctor I find your arguments puzzling. Where exactly do you draw your arbitrary lines as to what gods will is , and or isn't? If you are that afraid of "playing god", perhaps medicine is not the profession for you. If you were alive a few centuries ago I could speculate that you would be against examining cadavres and preforming autopsies, as the church was also. (playing with dead bodies was just "evil", and "wrong") I could also speculate that if you were alive a thousand years ago, you would of argued about the "evils"of Alchemy and Pharmakia , dismissing it as "sorcery", just as the church did("evil", and "wrong")


Interesting topic though, many great points already made. Living in California I can't help but laugh at those of you who actually take this issue seriously. We (california) as someone else mentioned, have centers popping up all over, thanks to a recent initiative.

Just like Clinton and his ban on cloning, all of you who oppose scientific research can take their rightful place alongside history's favourite religious zealots.

Those familiar with history might find startling parallels between those who fight stem cell research today and those who once thought it "wrong" to entertain the heliocentric theory in the 16th century. From every issue whether it be the earth being round, and revolving around the sun, right up to todays mindless arguments on cloning and stem cells, ALL scientific advances have been resisted by the mindless, and religious masses throughout time. Science (i.e medicine, pharmakia) is for those brave souls who dare question the authority of whatever religious views might be fashionable at any given time.

The more things change......The more they stay the same......Sad really.

Alright, you caught me in a contradiction, however, I knew a women who so desparately wanted to have a child with her husband. She wanted to bring life INTO the world and couldn't because of something that happened with her last marriage. She used in vitro fertilization. However, I do not quite know how I feel about this subject. It is definately a shady region.

And the point about playing God. I am not a Christian Scientist. I do not have a problem with modern medicine. It is used to save lives. And yes, we are playing God, but not at the expense of new life.....yet. It is just when we start taking lives in the name of good that I draw the line. I don't know why people cannot seem to differentiate between medicine now, and the medicine they want to attain using ESCs.

ESC research and applications to potential cures is grand, wonderful, amazing. However, we will be taking lives to get there. So, I am not trying to hinder th e advancement of science, I love science. I am saying that we do not have the right to go this far. What is the problem with not wanting to use ESCs, there are so many other sources for stem cells that we can utilize? Why are we paying so much attention to ESCs ....... because they are the most cost effective, easier to get.

And about this religious belief clouding my vision, I believe that we have souls and that a baby at the time of conception does too. Even if I wasn't basing this on religion, I would arrive at the same conclusion. But then again, how can I argue the existence of something that people just attribute to nervous impulses and electrical signals in the brain?

And you know what, i live in California too. ha ,lucky me

I am not arguing a theory (ie evolution versus creationism) here, that is something I leave up to the believer. Basic beliefs of science versus religion are not what I am concernerd about. I am arguing for the preservation of life, although in the opposite way most people do. This is not just a religious belief, this is a personal belief that I have derived from my common sense. Since I believe we have a soul (and don't try to convince me otherwise, it won't work), I believe we are given one when we first form, not after.

Forgive me if this doesn't make any sense, it is late, and I am studying bio for a final tomorrow. Argggg. Too much work. HAhahah, I am studying evolution right now, another of my "favorite" topics. I do believe in that one though.

Originally posted by mrwupy

Originally posted by dbrandt

The thing is I believe in Jesus Christ, not just for 2 hours on Sunday. I believe He is God every second of every day. I am to filter everything through Him first, because then I know the truth. So asking someone who believes in Christ to seperate part of their life from Him is not possible and not what God wants either.

So basicly, you're saying the rest of us should suffer from horrible desease's and die prematurely because you think thats what your imaginary friend wants for us.

Hey, i'm not judging here. You have a right to be a nut bag. Just as i'm sure you feel the same about me.

This is such an odd topic.

If I wanted to play God i'd start my own religion. People do it every day. It's not something that is difficult. Declare yourself to be the messiah and promise apples and oranges to everyone that kills a non-believer. You'd have more converts then you could shake your holy sceptor at.

Science on the other hand is making inroads to the very nature of mankinds existence. We have the genome, We have the ability to understand just what we are, we even have the ability to create life with the aforementioned in vitro.

We now simply have to get a handle on this.

Will we become a species who allows religion to stop our curiosity and kill our growth? Or will we become a species who follows exploration all the way to the door of the christians scary hell.

Personally, i'm hoping we can find a balance between the two.

Love and light,

Wupy

You know, I have no idea how you arrived at this. If you had read what we were all talking about at the time, he was commenting on something someone had said about not letting religion cloud our minds, and another comment on how someone believes in Jesus, but doesnt let the teachings of the Bible influence his decisions.

No one wants anyone to die a horrible disease ridden death *acutally, i could think of a few people off the top of my head*.

" Hey, i'm not judging here. You have a right to be a nut bag."

Uuuummmmmm, sounds like you are to me. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.

And just wondering, where is this balance you are talking about? Sounds to me your balance is when science gets to do anything it wants while religion steps out of the way.

i wouldnt refer to it as playing god, but merely trying things out.

its sometimes more not worth doing it than actually trying. sometimes things should take more time while done.

Originally posted by WissNX01

No, but thinking that certain research should be banned because it doesnt fit into your moral beliefs is akin to killing someone because they dont share your view. If it was decided by you, you would ban stem cell research.

On one of my posts did you read where they have had no success with embryonic stem cells, but the are having some success with adult stem cells where no one has to be killed. The people who are doing the research are blinded for some reason if they can't see this.

There has to be stopping points for stuff or man will eventually say anything goes.

Originally posted by WissNX01
Jesus said help thy self, and that is what science is doing.

I assume you are talking about the saying "God helps those who help themselves". They did a survey and I don't remember the exact percentage but a good percentage of people said that was a verse in the Bible.

That is not a Bible verse and it is not even Biblical. The Bible states that we are lost on our own and we need God to guide us.

I just find it very disingenuous to use Jesus's words against a possible cure for so many deadly, or extremely debilitating diseases. After all - the majority of his miracles dealt with healing the sick and afflicted in his role as a physician.

Going back to the original 10 commandments - I don't think we ought to be using God's name in a vain cause. God didn't write anything about allowing people to suffer and painfully die, or sit in a wheel chair their whole lives, or become mush brains, so He might get a bit po'd to find out your invoking His name in your argument against research to help people.

Originally posted by Valhall
I just find it very disingenuous to use Jesus's words against a possible cure for so many deadly, or extremely debilitating diseases. After all - the majority of his miracles dealt with healing the sick and afflicted in his role as a physician.

Going back to the original 10 commandments -

Going back to the original 10 commandments, Thou shalt not kill.

Jesus certainly healed people, but He didn't kill someone first to heal the person in need.

Originally posted by dbrandt


Going back to the original 10 commandments, Thou shalt not kill.

Jesus certainly healed people, but He didn't kill someone first to heal the person in need.

No one's talking about killing some one first in order to do the research. What we are talking about is doing the research instead of discarding something that could better millions of people's lives.

And by the way - I've never killed anybody. And I bet 99.9% of the people who would benefit from this research haven't killed anybody. And I bet 99.9999% of the researchers who could come up with the cures haven't killed anybody. - so I can't even see the relevance of that statement since we're not talking about the ethics of abortion. We're talking about the ethics of pitching potentially life-saving material in the waste can.


P.S. This is why religious folk get a really bad name in these issues - they think they've been given some mandate by God to restrict everybody else - and they pull that mandate out of twisted thinking and present in twisted arguments.


[edit on 5-16-2005 by Valhall]

Stem cell BS research is nothing but justification for murder of the unborn. Stem cells are available in many other forms other that CHILDREN. Whats next.........kill 1 or 2 year olds for their 'stem cells'? where does it stop?

In order to assist you guys in getting your argument across, I have taken the liberty of drafting this H.O.G. League flyer. It should explain everything to those of us who just don't get - or buy - what you're selling.

Originally posted by Xenersys
Stem cell BS research is nothing but justification for murder of the unborn. Stem cells are available in many other forms other that CHILDREN. Whats next.........kill 1 or 2 year olds for their 'stem cells'? where does it stop?

If you think this is some sort of Pandoras Box where it just leads to mass killings to harvest stem cesll, keep believing that. Also, the sky is falling, and the world is flat. Christians just make a bad name for themselves by twisting and contorting thier own Bible to justify everything. Sadly, Christians are the biggest hypocrites out there.

Yeah the evil stem cell research will have blood running in the streets before long.

Originally posted by dbrandt
On one of my posts did you read where they have had no success with embryonic stem cells, but the are having some success with adult stem cells where no one has to be killed. The people who are doing the research are blinded for some reason if they can't see this.

There has to be stopping points for stuff or man will eventually say anything goes.

Alright in all fairness, I had to go back and find something to explain why embryonic stem cell research hasnt been successful. I found a report by the University of California at San Diego. Apparently the existing stem cell line, which consists of about 30 or so different lines. And most of those lines are contaminated by some other foriegn matter. Pres. Bush signed a law a few years ago banning the creation of NEW embryonic stem cell lines. All this ban does is eliminates federal funding for embryonic stem cell research involving newly aquired lines beyond the original 30 that have been available.

Success on contaminated stem cells has clearly hit a dead end. Because of Prop 71 here in California, new embyonic stem cell lines are being created. these lines can be properly collected and isolated, defending against contamination.

Your Fundamentalist Christians are claiming that a blastocyst is a human being. If anyone hasnt noticed, science and medicine cannot determine when life has begun. Christians on the other hand, have it all figured out. There are groups that say life begins at conception. Others think that it begins when this blastocyst forms. Others think that life begins when the heart and brain are formed. So its fair to say no one has a clue.


Fruits and vegetables have living cells in them, so why is it okay to consume them? Christians are not consistent. The Christians who eat Bessie the Cow are responsible for destroying life, should the same moral judgement be bestowed on them?

I found this link pretty helpful. Mostly it included the debate angle for and against this type of research. Its pretty general, but the linked sites to it are very informative.

en.wikipedia.org...

Notice also, that its just these goofy fringe Christians that are worried to death about these stem cells. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and mainstream Christians are in support of this. If the Jews and Muslims agree on something, doesnt that say something?



[edit on 05/5/16 by WissNX01]

Originally posted by dbrandt

Fruits and vegetables have living cells in them, so why is it okay to consume them? Christians are not consistent. The Christians who eat Bessie the Cow are responsible for destroying life, should the same moral judgement be bestowed on them?


Notice also, that its just these goofy fringe Christians that are worried to death about these stem cells. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and mainstream Christians are in support of this. If the Jews and Muslims agree on something, doesnt that say something?

Oh, come on now. Comparing fruits and vegetables to a human being (except in certain cases ) is just silly.

I am sure you have a pretty good understanding of why Christians don't have a problem with eating FOOD, now don't you. I am sure if we believed that "bessie the cow" had a soul, we would leave her a lone too. However, she is just meat, put here by God to feed us. God gave us the land and animals to rule over. WE ARE THE SUPREME!!!!!!

As for it just being Christians, that is not true. The Catholics do not back this up either. I am Catholic, a very non-fundamentalist catholic, and i still don't back it up.

[edit on 16-5-2005 by seraph5]

[edit on 16-5-2005 by seraph5]

[edit on 16-5-2005 by seraph5]