The issue of "Freedom of Speech" on ATS

As an example of something that happend relating to serpo. A member who was rightly banned for lying posted something that some one who I respect wanted to see. A poster afterwards (not me) went on to post a vague hint about how to see it. Then I posted my opinion of the topic (serpo), then went on to make the hint a bit more clear. Beside that hint, I said "full of TC has edited the circumvention of the censor and is contemplating warning the offender of the transgression as the offender is admiting he knows better" with the number signs because it was clearly an all out lie and the poster had been banned anyway, so I figured there was no harm.

It was compleatly removed and put in its place "removed childish comment", yes my opinion may have been a bit childish, but the hint was not. I figured if some ones smart enough to "get" the hint, they are smart enough to know the hidden post is a lie and that the mods were right to remove the banned posters post.

However, what gets me is that the poster that mentioned the hint in the first place was told off by a mod and then changed his post to something compleatly different and compleatly conformed!

I didn't mention names. This hint was not hacking AT ALL, its more like googles cached pages, its not exactly like it but the same sort of idea.

I'm just saying that stuff does get censored for non-violations of the T&C and people will conform out of fear or the fear of being the outsider.

[edit on 26-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Read the rules, pal. Circumvention of the censor is a violation.
It was removed, so you should have taken the hint. You just now did it again? Come on.
Respect the ladies, children and gentlemen. We aren't all mechanics like me, you know.

Ok, no warn button, but don't do it again, please. Show love for the people.

[edit on 26-2-2006 by Thomas Crowne]

Well I have to say that was fast, too bad cops weren't that fast. I admit it is childish, not wrong as 2 of the middle letters were number signs. Thats why I felt I could say it in the first place and the fact that I've seen "that word" user censored like that in many other posts as well.
I also thought at the time that it wasn't censored for the word, but for the hint. Thats why I thought it was ok this time.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by philos0pher
I have first hand experience of members being banned instantly for posting material that is far from offensive or illegal. In many cases, the member is banned and then their IP is logged and they are forbidden not only to post on the website, but are totally forbidden to even look at the forum page. They become totally blocked.

Really?

Other than posting material clearly outside the agreed upon Terms and Conditions, who are they and what did they post?

I'm the only person who has the ability to IP-ban anyone. And I've never blocked anyone other than those who are malicious.

Well If we are to be totally honest about things it was me who posted the original material. I had an account similar to my account now. Phil0s0pher/ After i tried to post that very article (the Movement) it was deleted.

Yes i hear you say it may well be deleted as it could have been seen as a solicitation. but not in a commercial manner, no money was to be gained from this. If that message cannot be placed on Abovetopsecret where will it be placed? This is the most active forum for people with a political mindset.

In the case of this post we must ask why the idea of a solicitational post is against the rules. Probably to avoid people spamming with stupid schemes that would just annoy everone. But that rule has been used to delete a post which someone has obviously found dangerous in some way.

Skeptic you say that you are the only mod who can IP ban someone and that you only use it when people are being abusive. Well i dont know if you have IP banned that account but someone has. Everytime i try to log into my account then the computer i am using to log into the account is banned from looking at the ATS forum for usually about 3 days or something. Sometimes more. Eventually i managed to sign up a new account at a different computer having been banned from looking at ATS from 3 different places.

If you didnt do it Skeptic then who did?

I have also recieved strange U2U's about the post, AND when i try and ammend it on my computer or post it on other forums, my computer will begin to shut down just as im doing it.

I'd be interested to find out whats going on, and after the recent post about ATS being listed on a government server i wonder how deep the rabbit hole goes!

Originally posted by philos0pher
Well If we are to be totally honest about things it was me who posted the original material. I had an account similar to my account now. Phil0s0pher/ After i tried to post that very article (the Movement) it was deleted.

Would would we be anything other than totally honest?

If you were "IP-banned", you would not even be able to access ATS under the known IP's you've used. The fact that you've been able to attempt to log in with your previously banned account indicates your IP was never banned.

I have no idea what you're referring to when you mention a "recent post" about ATS being on a government computer. Could you elaborate?

Our terms and conditions are very clear. You agreed to them when you signed up. When new users immediately violate the simple rules of manners and conduct in their first handful of posts, naturally we assume their intent is less than honorable (which is invariably the case). If we've mistakenly interpreted your intent, then it's because your actions mirror those of less honorable members.

We have quite a few occasions where new members have contacted one of the site owners to ask advance permission to post something important that might otherwise be seen as promotional spamming. Many of these requests have been allowed, and some have not. But generally we allow latitude when someone approaches us in this way.

I have also recieved strange U2U's about the post, AND when i try and ammend it on my computer or post it on other forums, my computer will begin to shut down just as im doing it.

This seems odd. Who is the U2U from? Can I have your permission to review your U2U's for this suspect item to determine if someone has injected improper code into the message? It's possible for people with malicious intent to inject pieces of code into private messages and forum posts. While we've developed several custom safeguards, creative people will still look for ways to cause havoc.

Listen everyone, Im not so shure about your rules and regulation, and so/called freedom of speech you are proposing, but you actually are denieng it. How can you say to people, Whatch your mouth and speak freelly? This is very hyppcritical of you, you know, how can you LIVE with that on your back every day.
Did you know we are all different by nature? Did you know some people have certain feelings that must be expressed in F>WORD/manner, cause there is no other way. Where are THE LIMITS OF FREEDOM> and who have got wright to do so to other people.

Originally posted by MIKE888
How can you say to people, Whatch your mouth and speak freelly?

Easy. This is a private discussion board that we own.

When you are an invited guest at a friend's house in mixed company, do you drop the F-bomb and other vulgarities? Even though I'm a nasty New Yorker who uses the F-bomb like an adjective around friends, I'd never do so in that situation.

Another factor is that website filtering software does rank websites based on the occurrence of various vulgarities in several languages. If we allowed full-use of such words in our over 2.2 million posts, this site would be on every filtering-system list and fewer people would find our content... is that worth being able to uselessly use arbitrary meaningless words?

In the end, we (Simon, Springer, myself) own this place and get to set the rules... and they're pretty simple... talk about anything (except illegal acts) and be polite. If you have trouble following that simple rule, you're likely to have more problems in life than maintaining your account on ATS.

I'm a nasty New Yorker who uses the F-bomb like an adjective around friends, I'd never do so in that situation.

Hey, me too!!!

However, there's massive exceptions just like you said! I'd never use foul language in front of my parents, my boss, a member of the clergy out of respect for them, and for the way I want to portray myself in their presence as someone respectable myself.

But more importantly I'd never use foul language during the course of a presentation of my ideas to others. See, your posts on ATS are an expression of your opinion and your ideas to a tremendous audience. In my personal opinion we shouldn't even NEED the censors because when someone is presenting themselves and what they believe through a post they should not WANT to use vulgar language.

Think of it this way, if you're trying to explain something very serious and you start swearing, aren't you detracting from your own points? "He makes a good point but he talks like an animal." Why would anyone want to be classified that way?

There's hundreds of thousands of words in the English language, the majority of which are not used in day to day conversation. Surely you can pick others to express your feelings that are not deemed vulgar and show the respect towards other members of ATS and yourself when you put the effort in to expressing yourself here.

The Limits Of Freedom

Originally posted by MIKE888
Where are THE LIMITS OF FREEDOM> and who have got wright to do so to other people.

That's simple: you accepted them.

By being a member here, you have agreed to honor the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use.

In exchange for your cooperation, you are granted a wide range of privileges on the ATS family of domains, including participation in stimulating discussion of almost any topic under the sun in a huge array of busy full-featured forums, interaction with a very high quality of membership, the ability to submit and gain recognition for your contributions to a respected member-driven news service, the ability to submit podcasts for free RSS feeds and indexing in iTunes, the option of having your own personal member blog (for 1000 points) and many other cool perquisites, with new features and events coming out all the time.

It's very simple: respect the rules you have already agreed to respect, and in exchange, you gain access to these fine benefits.

If at any time you should come to regret the deal or consider it to be too restrictive, you can leave anytime without prejudice, and return whenever you wish -- provided you are willing to follow the house rules.

While you might consider the ATS environment to be confining, many of us find it quite liberating.

I recommend giving it a try our way and seeing if it's for you.

If not, it's okay.

We won't stop you if you want to leave.




[edit on 6/20/2006 by Majic]

S.O.!!!

You and the MODS use bad language??? Say it aint so Joe!!!

Seriously though, is not one of the first indications of a healthy intellect, the proper use of the language?

I for one, picked this site partially because of the Terms and Conditions, and I have stayed with it, because of the fair minded enforcement of those same T and C's.

Just an opinion

Semper

Seriously though, is not one of the first indications of a healthy intellect, the proper use of the language?

I agree entirely. Sure, people "swear", "curse", "cuss" or whatever it's called in each of our areas. But different situations call for different behavior.

When someone cuts me off on the highway, yep, I curse 'em out. If I drop something, if I hurt myself, if I'm mad at someone etc.

But not while I'm trying to present an intelligent point. That's where the difference lies. ATS is a community of intelligent people, drawn in by common interests such as Denying Ignorance, and a desire to learn things, and share what they've learned with others.

When an intelligent person is posting his/her thoughts to a community, there's just no place for such language. It doesn't belong there. It's not beneficial to the author or to the reader.

I'm not even addressing the T&C here (SO did that), I'm talking about this from a pure common sense perspective. If one wishes to be taken seriously and thought of as intelligent, one should know how to speak without foul language.

#@#!XXX$# NO! We don't swear in private! We elucidate the contemporary pejorative with a FLAIR for the emotive!

But in a public address one simply doesn't illustrate one's crassness unless one knows no better in which case one probably should stay in a non public address operating mode.

The inability to express one's ideas and opinions without the use of vulgar vernacular is a sure sign of a vocabulary deficiency.

Springer...

Indecorous Asseveration

Originally posted by Springer
The inability to express one's ideas and opinions without the use of vulgar vernacular is a sure sign of a vocabulary deficiency.

HELL YEAH!!!!

Damn straight bro, I tell you what!

So, this is like, a TV show. You can't report something as news if you don't have proof. You can't post "Santa runs the Government" and not provide proof.

First of all, I didn't read through this entire thread, because I found it unnecessary after reading the first posting as it coincided with my thoughts.

Thank you! I belong to another forum on the internet that has to do with my area, and if it doesn't always come down to one thing: defending yourself against others (not your opinions, your ideals, or your wishes, just who you are. It has gotten to the stage that I'm sick to go in there, but I still do, because it is the only place where I can sort out people in my area's opinions.

I don't want to see that happen to this site. It is privately owned, standards can be set. You can say whatever you want to in a public place, but when you say it on here, you are held accountable to the owner of the establishment's perception of what is allowed/not allowed.

Thank you for making this point, I was guilty of a blasting on my first post, and quickly got reminded of the rules, and what was not acceptable here. I conformed, because it was more than worth it. I see no problem in that whatsoever. It wasn't even really a stretch, it was just affording others the dignity that I expected in return.

Originally posted by niteboy82

Thank you for making this point, I was guilty of a blasting on my first post, and quickly got reminded of the rules, and what was not acceptable here. I conformed, because it was more than worth it. I see no problem in that whatsoever. It wasn't even really a stretch, it was just affording others the dignity that I expected in return.

Amazing how far we can go when we recognize Social Grace and The Golden Rule eh?

Springer...

The inability to express one's ideas and opinions without the use of vulgar vernacular is a sure sign of a vocabulary deficiency.

Springer...

Apart **%$ from @^%$@ anything #@%! else..

It *(*^$$ takes $%@@## ages to *##$@! read @#$ and ##$%% understand,

So you will probably just get ignored and that will just make you even angrier..

Thanks for $#@@$$%* Listening

I agree entirely with the first post. What is at issue here is Authority vs. Freedom.

I recently saw a posting on the newsgroups that claims that the US military is Socialist. To prove this, the poster claimed that every soldier has to wear the same uniform, keep commands without question, etc. They were asking how can Americans involve themselves in such and be free? How can armies defend freedom and yet show that they're not free? Some were saying that church members of every church should be able to concoct any idea about religion, spread those ideas and still remain classified as faithful members.

Take a look at how this very same issue is presented on my website:

www.seventh-dayadventism.com...

Originally posted by niteboy82
I don't want to see that happen to this site. It is privately owned, standards can be set. You can say whatever you want to in a public place, but when you say it on here, you are held accountable to the owner of the establishment's perception of what is allowed/not allowed.

Thank you for making this point, I was guilty of a blasting on my first post, and quickly got reminded of the rules, and what was not acceptable here. I conformed, because it was more than worth it. I see no problem in that whatsoever. It wasn't even really a stretch, it was just affording others the dignity that I expected in return.

Courts are publicly owned. I hate to see what would happen to those who are arguing for "free speech" the way they present it. I guess then they would never be a problem for anyone.

Originally posted by tmac100
Courts are publicly owned. I hate to see what would happen to those who are arguing for "free speech" the way they present it. I guess then they would never be a problem for anyone.

'
Clarification: I didn't quite mean a courtroom, or a courthouse. Alas, I can however walk down the street and say pretty much what I wanted. However, what I meant was that there is no use of making that claim like that here. No point, because it won't make a difference. It's private, it's the Three Amigos' website, and that is the finalization of it.