Allah = Hubal = Baal?

Originally posted by jake1997
If telling the truth about Islam is turning people off to Christ, and if not accepting other religions is wrong...

then brand me with your iron.

Your problem is you dont think christianity is right...so you couldnt possibly believe that christians could know if islam is wrong. From your view,,all are the same.

Not me. My faith demands it. Jesus said you wouldnt like me, so Im not too concerned with that either

It is not that I dont like you, I do think you should go about your message diffrently. We come from diffrent perspectives.

I do not think Islam is correct, but a lot of people are misinformed.
I have been overseas and some Muslims in IRAQ,look at Christians the way you look at Muslims. I did not like to see them misinform other muslims about Christians either.

[edit on 14-5-2005 by Snowman9]

I can understand that.
From a spiritual perspective tho, Islam is part of the coming apostate one world religion. RCC is the perfect fore runner
In Revelation that religion is called the harlot Babylon

The sungod and sex goddess imagry of the rcc, and the moongod imagry of islam (hinduism carrys both) comes from Babylon (christian perspective).

That said...just like most catholics dont know...most muslims dont know.

Islam depends on Muhammed. Muhammed depends on Deut 18:18

That verse predicts Jesus according to christianity
It predicts muhammed according to islam.
Either way it only predicts one prophet so only one is right.

Beyond that...muslims believe they worship the God of abraham...but the bible tells us taht anyone who says Jesus is NOT the son of God, doesnt even have God.

So the christian perspective says islam still is with the moongod.
I know this pisses off muslims, but its biblical and its the only way I know how to say it.

I dont say it for muslims or for atheists. Its to educate other christians. One day I hope we will get to know everything. TIll then, we teach each other.

We were wrong when we agreed that Islam is not in the bible. It is.

Gen 16:11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.


That fits Islam very well. Ishmael is the father of Saudi

Jake, you keep saying "mecca holds the symbols". Do you know what you are talking about? Mecca now, and Islam is absolutely devoid of symbology. It is absolutely forbidden. As far as I know, it is forbidden in Christianity as well, but I see Crosses/Jesus's/Marys EVERYWHERE in relation to Christianity (not just in catholic churches). You seem silent on that subject Jake. Do you wear a cross? Do you consider it a symbol of Christianity? Did you read the links showing the cross's pagan origins?
First you claimed that Islam uses the crescent symbol because of the moon god. I then showed you (from a link you yourself provided ) that not only do muslims NOT use the crescent as a symbol, but that the crescent became a symbol of the TURKS in the 15th century, almost 700 years after Muhammad.

Jake, you seem confused about Islamic teachings. You said:

In the quran you can be a good muslim by staying peaceful
In the quran you can be a good muslim by waging Jihad

More accurate would be:
You MUST be peaceful to be a good muslim
BUT if you (or other muslims) are being oppressed, you CANNOT be a good muslim unless you maintain Jihad ( I don't know about putting "waging" before jihad, as it would more accurately be translated as "struggle". Military fighting is only 1 kind of Jihad, the last option).

The Quran lives and dies by nothing in the Bible. It takes the Bible as a book distorted by man, and so it is considered an unreliable source.
But, since you brought up Duet 18:
The Quran says nothing about Muhammad being "One that is like Moses". True, however, Muhammad called Moses a brother.
Also, Muslims nowhere deny that Jesus was the prophecied "Messiah". But that is all that he was. If you believe Jesus to be the "Son of God", how can he be "the one that is like Moses"(BTW, it says nowhere in the Bible that it was referring to Jesus, it is just what Christians have assumed). Moses was a man, to you, Jesus was "Son of God".
There are dozens of similarities between Moses and Muhammad that are not shared by Jesus. Both Moses and Muhammad married and had kids. Both had normal births. Both died normal deaths.
Also, God was said to "put words in his mouth". Muhammad got all the quranic verses directly spoken out of his mouth. Also, almost ALL surahs in the quran start with "In the name of God", as required by God. I don't see this often in the Bible.

The Bible says nothing about Islam being from the moon god. That is your own (unproven) assumption. All this talk about whether the Bible is the Quran or Quran is in the Bible is silly. Anything in the Bible would have come before anything in the Quran, so logically the Quran cannot be in the Bible. However, the message of "truth" IS somewhere deep in the Bible, despite all the distortions made to it. Also, obviously, much that was in the Bible would be in the Quran. I mean, they were originally from the same religion.

There is no use trying to discredit Ishmael, because he was obviously meant for great things as well. God promised to make a great nation from Ishmael, because he was of Abraham's seed. Also, why would God help Ishmael in the desert if he was father of evil? Ishmael even means "God will hear". God will hear what? Ishmael was sent because Abraham asked for a child. Why would God "curse" Abraham/Hagar with an child who is to be the father of "evil"?

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Originally posted by jake1997 THe Quran does not hang on every word of the Bible. It uses texts and passages from The thorah, some from the Gospels and some texts that did not make into the Bible. (Like Thomas) You wouldnt know that , because you have not read it.
The quran lives and dies by a verse from the OT. Which verse is it? If muslims are wrong about it, there is no islam.

Your belief in Christ is entirely dependent on the Old Testament, without same the gospel forgers, and I mean forgers, would have had no story to build for this thief and killer you revere.

When the truth behind the OT becomes exposed Jake, and it will, the God of the Jews and by default your Christ, will go the way of the deities they were fashioned after. Even Islam will be assaulted, but Islam has an out that neither of the other two have in that it is the last of the big three religions supposedly carved by a man who claims to have been given the truth, one who did not claim Jesus to be anything but a prophet. It is a very slim chance at survival, but far better than the zero chance your religion would have.

what is it?
I know
Do you?

You don't know anything.

Now why do you hate the Islamic faith, Jake?

Originally posted by jake1997
Mecca is loaded with the pagan origins just as the Vatican is loaded with its pagan origins.

I think you fail to see that you have no point. Christianity, itself, is loaded with pagan origins and paganistic materials. The passion of christ, the suffering, crucifixtion, death, resurrection, are quintisentially paganistic, and existied, in detail amoung the pagan religions. Islam, rather strictly, explicitly denies everything that has anything to do with paganism. Islam is direct divine revelation from the Supreme Creator God. Christianity is a three part god head, a pagan passion play, and a lot of other 'non-monotheistic' things.

The RCC has the sungod and sex goddess imagry everywhere,

Becuase those things are part of christianity. What does imagery matter? The beleifs of the beleivers are whats important. Roman Catholics belive in jesus, the saviour, and the triune godhead. Not the divine goddess and the ever-dying god. Muslims beleive in the single supreme God, not some meccan moon diety.

but the fact remains that the origins are pagan and the symbols are all still there as I showed in my posted links.

I don't think anyone is disputing that christianity, judiasm, and islam make use of pagan imagery and symbolism. Tho, there is a question of the crescent moon, is it a symbol used by the arabs because of their former moon god, or is it a symbol used by the Turks, because they were stationed in Turkey?

At mecca, we see both. Thats enough for me

Personally, I'd like to see pre-turkish moslem armies with crescent moon flags or arabs, outside of mecca, carrying these symbols, rather than finding moon god symbols in a place where the moon god was worshipped.

Anything or one that denies the divinity of Jesus is the spirit of the antichrist.

So you hate jews, muslims, buddhists, lots of heretical christian sects, and unitarians, right? I mean, you basically hate everyone, and thats 'fine' right? I just want to be clear on this.

You can call them the same if you want, but if they dont keep Christs word then they are not His.

Catholics worship christ, the triune godhead, and that is all. That is what is required to be a christian, Catholics are christians. To pretend otherwise is folly.

In 325 the catholics switched to easter because they hated jews and didnt want anything to do with them.

The catholic church didn't exist in 325.

The bible says that Islam is the spirit of the antichrist

The bible, obviously, doesn't mention that. Which portions are you misinterpreting?

In the quran you can be a good muslim by staying peaceful
In the quran you can be a good muslim by waging Jihad
no wonder they dont know what to do.

So all christians who are not peacful are bad christians then right?

I know the quran quite well. I know it because I have two friends who are former muslims, and are now born again christians.

And you'd think that christian apostates would make a good source of biblical information for muslims?

know that all the traditions kept by islam belong to the moongod cult

Such as what? We know practically nothing about the moongod cult.

RCC is the perfect fore runner

So, for you, an apostate is one who accepts jesus as god? Interesting.

Islam depends on Muhammed. Muhammed depends on Deut 18:18

I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

So jesus was a prophet and not divine, according to you?

Beyond that...muslims believe they worship the God of abraham...but the bible tells us taht anyone who says Jesus is NOT the son of God, doesnt even have God.

Congratulations, you figured out that the bible and the koran are different books with different claims.

Don't you see how preposterous it is to say that islam is wrong because the bible says so? Its simply a matter of faith. You have faith that islam is wrong, and based on it being wrong, you want to see in what way its wrong, and figure that its a satanically inspired deception and is nothing more than 'moon god worship in disguise'. Fair enough, but lets not pretend that you have any rational reason for thinking any of this. You have faith thats its wrong, and your 'rationale' is simply an attempt to rationalize that faith, which is absurd and uncessary. For you, the bible is literal truth. So why pretend that you can have a discussion about these things? You don't have 'evidence' for any of this, you simply uncritically beleive it, because of you interpretation of the bible.

[edit on 16-5-2005 by Nygdan]

So you agree that

Islam is pagan in origin

AND


What you think is christianity is pagan in origin

Good. We are done here.

No, I do not agree that Islam is pagan in origins. Islam is, explicitly, anti-pagan. Its expressly not pagan. The moon is a popular symbol associated with Islam. So what. That does not mean that islam is now, or ever was, pagan, anymore than because the Jesus story is almost exactly the same as pagan dead and ressurected God stories means that Christianity is just a copy of that.

I notice that you made it 'what I think is christianity', but not 'what i think is islam'.

lets look at the central story of christianity. Jesus is the saviour, he has disciples, he tells them the truth, he is punished, dies on a stick, is resurrected, ascends into heaven.
Thats, minimally, christianity. The stuff that seperates evangelicals from baptists or unitarians and the rest is irrelevant, thats the core of christainity, its also precisely the same as the paganistic myths of the god who has disciples, teaches wisdom, is killed, on a stick, is resurrected, and ascends into heaven.
You might, or others might, claim that those other religions are 'echos' of christianity, or perversions of it (projected into the past or what not), similarly, a muslim can state that the use of the kabba is an 'echo' of the fundamental truth of islam, that the pagans knew it was holy, but were corrupt and thought it was from the moon, rather than god, just as the pagans corrupt the (comming) jesus story, or, indeed, the gnostics corrupted the literal jesus story. Also note that the gnostics would say that the non-gnostics corrupted the jesus story and took it literally, not even realizing that it was the same 'myth' that is repeated by most mysterious religions.

So, at the very least, if islam is paganistic because of the kabba or the turkish flag, then you are stating that jesus is false and imaginary.

The core of christianity

God made everything. Everything was perfect.
Man disobeyed God and became subservant to sin. The perfect creation was corrupted.

Each new human is born with that original sin because flesh is corrupt. The wages of that sin is death.
If it were possible for one human to never sin..and not be born with that original sin...then that one person could make atonement.

God does not want this new life He created to die. He finds a way to keep His integrity (wages of sin is death) and save us at the same time.
Take on human form, and die for His creation.

Jesus Christ is born of the Holy Spirit. He is the kinsman redeemer. He is someone of our old family who is not in our situation that can save us.

Because he is sinless...then he is not under the law. Those under the law cannot overcome it. Jesus is not under the law.
Jesus dies for the wages of sin. All those who are of His 'family' are not under the law.

Jesus also rose from the grave. He promised that everyone who followed him will also rise. Sin is defeated. Death has lost its sting.
This is hardly the same as the Nimrod, semerimis, tammuz story in any of its forms.
The forst prophecy about Christ happened in Genesis.
The people who stepped off the ark had Gods promise too.
Gods story PRECEDED the others.

Q.) Does mecca have pagan symbols of the moongod?
Q.) Does Christianity have those symbols?

Q.) Does islam keep the moongod rituals at mecca?

Q.) Does the holy Ramadan take place during the month with 2 crescent moons?

Q.) Is the islamic calendar based on the moon cycle?

Q.) Do muslims face the place with the moon symbols for their prayer?

Q.) Does islam claim to be following the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Q.) Does Islam lay claim to Deut 18:18?

Answer those honestly and you will see what Islam is and is not.

Originally posted by jake1997
This is hardly the same as the Nimrod, semerimis, tammuz story in any of its forms.

What are you talking about, it precisely the same. The death and ressurection are very much the same, even in the details. There's not much sense in 'arguing' against this, its plainly obvious.

Gods story PRECEDED the others.

According to the bible, sure.

Q.) Does mecca have pagan symbols of the moongod?

Not surprisingly, yes, it does.

Q.) Does Christianity have those symbols?

The moon god? No. But the symbols of dionysos, bacchus, ishtar, inanna, adonis, etc, yes.

Q.) Does islam keep the moongod rituals at mecca?

No.

Q.) Does the holy Ramadan take place during the month with 2 crescent moons?

I dunno, does it?

Q.) Is the islamic calendar based on the moon cycle?

Yes. What does that matter?

Q.) Do muslims face the place with the moon symbols for their prayer?

You seem to be failing to recognize that that 'place' has a different, far more significant meaning, and that that meaning is why they face it.

Q.) Does islam claim to be following the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

From what I understand, yes.

Q.) Does Islam lay claim to Deut 18:18?

I have no idea.

Answer those honestly and you will see what Islam is and is not.

Cool, I answered them honestly, and I can see that islam is no more a pagan moon god religion that evangelical christianity is an adonis cult or iannna cult.

Cool

Then I guess we're finished.

Thanks for the dialogue

Originally posted by jake1997

Q.) Does the holy Ramadan take place during the month with 2 crescent moons?

Ramadan IS a month of a lunar calender. It has been chosen as holy because it was during the month of Ramadan that God first spoke to Mohammad.
The thing with two crescent moons is not correct.
A new month of lunar calender begins with a crescent moon, so one month can't have two of them.

Muslims use the lunar calender simply because it was there long before Islam, actually it has its origins in the origin of our civilisation, Sumeria. (also the origin of many religious myths, like the flood and Noah)

Mohammad has explicitly forbidden arabs to worship the gods of Kaba, to put it that way, the numerous god statues that were worshiped in Mecca. Every tribe had their own god and statue. Mohammad forced them to worship the God of Jews and Christians instead. Do you understand that?
He DID NOT ALLOW worship of moongod, he instead said "worship the god that is worshipped by jews and christians", hence the whole Bible re-told in Qur'an.
If muslims are worshipping the moongod, then jews and christians are too, since they all claim to worship the God of Abraham.

Q.) Does Islam lay claim to Deut 18:18?

That part of the Bible talks about a Prophet, and not about Son of God.
So if it is talking about Jesus, then Jesus is a prophet and not a Son of God.
If Jesus is the Son of God, then that verse is not about him, it is about someone else. You can't have both.

It has been chosen as holy because it was during the month of Ramadan that God first spoke to Mohammad.
p

Actually, now that you mention it, wasn't ramadan supposed to have been picked because that was the month in which a successful campaign against some enemy was undertaken? Or is it one of those 'chicken and the egg' type things (ie, they fought in that month because it was holy, or the victory was that much more 'special')?

Yes, you are right about a fight, it was the battle of Bedr. It happened during Ramadan, but that is not the reason why it is holy.

The Qur'an states:

[2:185] Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witness this month shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.


So, it is because of the revelation that it was chosen as holy month.

"According to the Koran, if on the 29th day of Shaban (the eighth month of the Islamic calendar) a sliver of the new moon can be seen in the sky, the next day is the start of Ramadan.

If no trace of the moon can be seen, Shaban is deemed to last for another day and fasting begins at the following sunrise. "

news.bbc.co.uk...



About Deut 1818
since this is arguing the christian and muslim perspective, and both books say Jesus is a prophet.. I have reason to doubt the depth and honesty of your research.



[edit on 16-5-2005 by jake1997]

Originally posted by jake1997
"According to the Koran, if on the 29th day of Shaban (the eighth month of the Islamic calendar) a sliver of the new moon can be seen in the sky, the next day is the start of Ramadan.

Uhmmm isnt that what I just said?
A new moon marks the start of a month in a lunar calendar.
Ramadan is the ninth month of the calendar that comes after the eighth month, Shaban.

About Deut 1818
since this is arguing the christian and muslim perspective, and both books say Jesus is a prophet.. I have reason to doubt the depth and honesty of your research.

Well, if according to christian belief Deut 18:18 predicts Jesus, then why didn't God say "I will send you my son", since christians believe Jesus is the Son of God ( that is the very core of belief of every single christian denomination, that Jesus is the Son of God).
Instead, God talks about a prophet. So, if that verse predicts Jesus, then Jesus is one of many prophets that came, and is equal to them, since the same word was used to describe them.
If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, then Deu 18:18 isn't about him.

From a Muslim perspective it is completely irrelevant what Deut 18:18 says. To Muslims it is only relevant what Qur'an says, and Qur'an says Mohammad is a prophet.
For the sake of argument, lets assume that Muslims care. Since muslims refer to Jesus as "prophet", that verse from a Muslim perspective can be both about Jesus and about Mohammad.

I have a question for jake1997.
I've noticed a persistent anti-catholic theme running throughout your posts in this thread. You seem to be saying that catholicism is not true christianity but a pagan derivative designed to pervert the message of Christ.
Obviously your not catholic.

So you must be either Orthodox or some Protestant derivative.
Your obviously not Orthodox because thats similar to catholicism in that there are pagan influences. You must be a protestant, and not even a mainstream one because of your extreme views. Sounds to me like you read the bible and interperted it to basically form your own branch of christianity which you claim is the "one true" representation of Christianity on the face of the earth.

Please explain to me how you can claim to be following the "true" teachings of christ if your using the same book as the "pagan" catholics. I mean unless you miraculously recieved first hand audio transcripts of Jesus's teachings your using the same playbook as the Catholics. Dont you think that if the sole purpose of Catholicism is to pervert Christ's message they would have screwed with the bible as well? I mean its not like it would have been impossible for them to supress the"true teachings of christ" they successfully supressed everything else after all. You might argue that God would never allow this to occur but then why would he allow Catholicism to go bad. If he is willing to allow the main dispenser of his religion throughout most of history to be corrupted then its possible for him to allow the message of the bible to be corrupted.

The fact of the matter is that you dont know and all your attempts to state otherwise only prove your ignorance. Who are you to claim to know the mind of god?

Originally posted by Nygdan

Q.) Does mecca have pagan symbols of the moongod?

Not surprisingly, yes, it does.

Just wondering here, but does it really? I'd have thought that the Arabs would have gone out of their way to erase any moon god symbols, at least in Makkah. I mean, one of the 1st things Muhammad did when he gained control of the city was to smash ALL the idols in the ka'bah, including any moon god. Also, considering that Makkah is closed to non-muslims, how is it possible to know if it has moon god symbols anyway?

Well, if according to christian belief Deut 18:18 predicts Jesus, then why didn't God say "I will send you my son", since christians believe Jesus is the Son of God ( that is the very core of belief of every single christian denomination, that Jesus is the Son of God).
Instead, God talks about a prophet. So, if that verse predicts Jesus, then Jesus is one of many prophets that came, and is equal to them, since the same word was used to describe them.

The OT is Jesus concealed, the NT is Jesus revealed.

Do you think satan would have caused Jesus to be crucified if he knew the plan? Do you understand that all the Jews that didnt believe expected a warrior instead of a sacrificial lamb. A president instead of teacher.

The key is that this prophet will be like Moses. That was what I wanted you to see. But if you couldnt get past 'prophet' then I cant possibly help you with the part about being like Moses.
You really dont care anyway...but if you change.. let me know.

boogyman

Why did you even mention me if the question was really for you?
Did I know show what was the reason I brought anything up?
The organization that

Lead the crusades that massacred many thousands of jews and muslims
Lead a 1000+ year inquisition that was responsible for the murder of 100's of millions , inlcuding many many saints (drunk with the blood of the prophets and the saints)
Lead a purge in Central and South America that neary wiped entire peoples off the earth...all for the money.
Held europe with an iron hand for a 1000+ years and persecuted scientists and christian alike
That teaches that muslims and jews do not need Jesus Christ to go to heaven even tho its bible teaches otherwise.
That says the first book of the bible is wrong because evolution is right
That endorses supposed visions of mary...even when they contradict the bible

That same rcc that has done all of these things...and the atheists here constantly scream at christians saying that christianity is responsible for all those crimes...that same rcc

There is nothing wrong with telling the truth. If it goes against what you believe..then its time to re-examine what and why you believe.

Originally posted by boogyman
Please explain to me how you can claim to be following the "true" teachings of christ if your using the same book as the "pagan" catholics.

I can understand asking the question, but please keep this thread on topic. The topic is, generally, "Is Allah merely Hubal and is islam really paganistic/etc". A discussion of related information is perfectly fine, but lets not make it all about one particular poster and one theology. Just keep it related to the "Allah is just hubal" topic guys.

rabs would have gone out of their way to erase any moon god symbols, at least in Makkah

True, but I can't imagine, having never seen any of these things myself however, that they were completely successful and that there aren't at a minimum artefacts in the surrounding areas. Also, the kabba itself is something that I am taking as a 'symbol' too.
[quote4] I mean, one of the 1st things Muhammad did when he gained control of the city was to smash ALL the idols in the ka'bah, including any moon god.
But, but, if we keep that in mind, then that would, well, conclude the discussion!

Also, considering that Makkah is closed to non-muslims, how is it possible to know if it has moon god symbols anyway?

I'd think that muslim scholars would report on it if it were there.
But you are right, I've never been to mecca, and couldn't actually know, I just think it'd be strange if there weren't actual relics from that era lying around, even excluding the kabba.

Jake1997 has not read the Koran. It is evident in his post. All his proof is in articles and people opinion. I have been to the Mid East and have read the Koran. It is not a pagan religion. It worships Allah, who is God. Allah is just the Arabic name for God. Muhammad was just a man and so was Jesus and Mosses and so on. They believe that Christians and Jews are people of the book. Meaning they all worship the same God as Abraham. They are totally against all forms of Pagan worship. That is why even painting pictures of prophets or God is illegal in there country. God states paint no images of me. Jews follow this same view. Being a Muslim is nothing but strict Monotheism. Ishmael went out and started a great nation and the Muslims are the Children of Ishmael.

Here is a quote from The Koran.

74: And when Abraham said to his sir, Azare. Take thou Idols for gods? Surely I see thee and thy people in manifest error.

Recognize this story. Should help you realize that, Islam in not a pagan religion.
I can point out all kinds of pagan imagery in Christianity too. That does not mean that Christianity is Pagan.



About the Catholics.

Catholic’s are the first Christian dogma. Every form of Christianity was spawned by the Roman church. They put forth the Dogma you follow, some things may be different, like priest and nuns, but the majority is the same. The roman church put the bible together.
They took the Torah and called the Old Testament and then Took the Gospels, which where a series of books and debated, which ones would go in the book called the Bible.
Yep. That’s right.

Look it up, what I said is true

[edit on 17-5-2005 by Snowman9]