Is JRR Tolkien racist?

Is JRR TOLKIEN - Lord of the Rings author racist? Last night when I was watching the movie, I noticed that everyone was white. There wasn't one Black guy!! Maybe it was just coincidence. I am just trying to clarify a doubt, not accusing anybody of anything.

No, he is not racist. If you actually READ anything tolien had to say post LOTR, he said this was a history of ancient England. In many popular black movies and sitcoms, there are no white people. Are those, in turn, racist?

Originally posted by surfup
Is JRR TOLKIEN - Lord of the Rings author racist? Last night when I was watching the movie, I noticed that everyone was white. There wasn't one Black guy!! Maybe it was just coincidence. I am just trying to clarify a doubt, not accusing anybody of anything.

I would hope not. I enjoyed his stories in my adolscence. I read the series 3 times back then. However, I heard that in actuality all the orcs were portrayed as black. That's what I "heard." I can't confirm it.

[Edited on 30-7-2003 by Colonel]

[Edited on 30-7-2003 by Colonel]

Hmmm, I have to admit I never took much interest in his work...........

I heard this same rumor, but its complete rubbish. Saruman represents industry/technology. The orcs represented the drones of technology; those who have no love for nature or the beauty of the natural world. There was actually an article about this in the most recent Paranoia magazine, illuding to the possibility that Tolien saw the freemasons as an evil threat, via the all-seeing eye or Sauron.

Originally posted by goregrinder
No, he is not racist. If you actually READ anything tolien had to say post LOTR, he said this was a history of ancient England. In many popular black movies and sitcoms, there are no white people. Are those, in turn, racist?

Even in those black movie and sitcoms there are at least one appearance of a white man in the background or somewhere. But in Lord of the Rings, there is none what so ever I can see. Everyone is white.

I didn't know it was in ancient England, but still there is no mention. Back in those days, blacks were mostly slaves and were traded. So, there could at least one, like slaves or workers. Maybe it was just coincidence. I don't know.

Originally posted by surfup

Originally posted by goregrinder
No, he is not racist. If you actually READ anything tolien had to say post LOTR, he said this was a history of ancient England. In many popular black movies and sitcoms, there are no white people. Are those, in turn, racist?

Even in those black movie and sitcoms there are at least one appearance of a white man in the background or somewhere. But in Lord of the Rings, there is none what so ever I can see. Everyone is white.

I didn't know it was in ancient England, but still there is no mention. Back in those days, blacks were mostly slaves and were traded. So, there could at least one, like slaves or workers. Maybe it was just coincidence. I don't know.

I don't think you got your era correct. Back in that era, Blacks were Kings and queens and slaves in their own right in their own lands---just like in England.

So it was like Black in south, white in east, brown in west?? Thanks for clarifing.

I didn't know it was in ancient England, but still there is no mention. Back in those days, blacks were mostly slaves and were traded. So, there could at least one, like slaves or workers. Maybe it was just coincidence. I don't know. Posted by Surfup

Blacks were not traded as slaves for the most part until the discovery and exploration of the New World.

I don't think you got your era correct. Back in that era, Blacks were Kings and queens and slaves in their own right in their own lands---just like in England.

Jesus Christ, is everyone ready?!?! colonel and i have finally seen eye to eye!!!!! Very good point, colonel.

And surfup, i said ancient, not 400 years ago. Come on man. You DO KNOW black people people come from Africa, and white people com from Europe, correct?

hmm. I forgot your name. well, you are young and need to read more if you do not want to become as biased as you are now......................or a racist at that..............

Racism will always run wild, as long as unsolicited, inflamatory posts exist, such as this one. Couldnt agree more, tyr.

Yeah, you guys are right. By the way my name is surfup. What am I biased as now smarty old wise pants?
We don't know anything for sure, do we? Everything is based on assumptions, assuming the assumptions are right. Right??? I am sorry, if I said anything wrong. I am blabbering the first thing that comes to my mind.

Tolkien did not make any movies, he only wrote the books.

None of that was meant soley for you, surfup. If it was a good movie, why does it matter? It is not an assumption as to the geographical setting of the tale; it is fact. Enjoy life. Racism is an ugly monster that can turn the most civil people violent in heated debate.

Originally posted by groingrinder
Tolkien did not make any movies, he only wrote the books.

But, aren't the movies, soley based on his books? I have never read the books, only saw the movie hundred times.

Yes, they are. Chris Tolkien, JR's son, said "this is the way my father would have wanted it", in remark to Peter Jacksons genius direction, and Alan Lee's remarkably artistic vision. They left a few things out, but the trilogy would be 100+ hours if every plot twist was present in the movie.

Originally posted by goregrinder
None of that was meant soley for you, surfup. If it was a good movie, why does it matter? It is not an assumption as to the geographical setting of the tale; it is fact. Enjoy life. Racism is an ugly monster that can turn the most civil people violent in heated debate.

I have known people, really wise ones, who would get into a brawl talking about racism.

Actually in LotR the "Southerons" were blacks, but in the movie they were portrayed by whites in black masks...probably because if they showed that the only Blacks in the film served Sauron (however unwillingly), then the ALCU would be on their butts so fast...

Also Tolkien said something great to Hitler...

From The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, ed. Humphrey Carpenter, George Allen &
Unwin, London, 1981.

Just for absolute clarity: These letters are about the german translation of
_The Hobbit_ not _LoTR_ which was not yet written

p37 to Stanley Unwin July 1938

"Do I suffer this impertinence because of the possession of a German name, or
do their lunatic laws recquire a certificate of "arisch" origin from all
persons of all countries?
Personally I should be inclined to refuse to give any Bestatingung (although
it happens that I can), and let a German translation go hang. In any case I
should object strongly to any such declaration appearing in print. I do not
regard the (probable) absence of all Jewish blood as necessarily honourable.
I have many Jewish friends and I should regret giving any colour to the notion
that I subscribed to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race doctrine."

p37 to Rutten & Loening Verlag (German publishers) July 1938

"I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of
Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my
ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I
am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can
only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted
people."

He goes on to say that he is primarily English but has always been proud of
having a German name, but that if Germany carries on along these lines the time
will come when he is not any longer.

This passage is also of relevance to Tolkien's views on Hitler and race:

p55 Letter to Michael Tolkien 1941

"I have spent most of my life, since I was your age, studying Germanic matters
(in the general sense that includes England and Scandinavia). There is a great
deal more force (and truth) than ignorant people imagine in the "Germanic"
ideal. I was much attracted by it as an undergraduate (when Hitler was, I
suppose, dabbling in paint and had not heard of it), in reaction against the
"Classics". You have to understand the good in things, to detect the real evil.
...Yet I suppose I know better than most what is the truth about this "Nordic"
nonsense. Anyway, I have in this War a burning private grudge - which would
probably make me a better soldier at 49 than I was at 22: against that ruddy
little ignoramous Adolf Hitler (for the odd thing about demonic inspiration and
impetus is that it in no way enhances the purely intellectual stature: it
chiefly affects the mere will). Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making
for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to
Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light."

Quoted expressly for the purposes of refuting accusations of anti-semitism and
of fair critical use, with no intention to infringe copyright.

Tolkien was a man of his age and not ours

--
Jo


homepages.cs.ncl.ac.uk...

Took me a while to find it, but I did, thankfully, Tolkein is far from racist. But his is very whitty.

That's essentialy happened here, more than a few times.