Chemtrails Confirmed

sportymb says:

Can someone please give me an easy definition of a chemtrail....?

No problem. A "chem-trail" is what a conspiracy person calls a normal aircraft contrail, which, due to being formed in an environment where the temperature is below minus forty degrees and the atmosphere is saturated, tends to stay visible as ice crystals rather than subliming (going directly from ice crystals to vapor like dry ice does) back into vapor.

That's all it is. But shhh! You don't want to thell the "chem-trail" believes that....

dh says:

Interestingly, Supercell.org appears to list many of the most obscene media promoters of the neocon project, - Limbaugh, Coulter et al

What does that have to do with the fact that Thomas keeps getting caught in lies?

Note clearly the outright lies -'when I was a child' a- and diversionary techniques involved

What does that have to do with the fact that Thomas keeps getting caught in lies?

dh, why do you keep changing the subject?

William Thomas keeps saying things, and then six months later they don't come to pass like he said they would. Then he makes another prediction, and it turns out to be bogus, too!

And yet all his believers never seem to say things like, "Hey, how come none of his stuff is right?"

Why is that, dh? Is it that you so want to belive in "chem-trails" that you will ignore all the evidence that it's a hoax?

Chemtrails have been inflicted on us for decades! Have a look at this!



and this!

Gee, Alex, most of the True "Chem-trail" Believers say that "chem-trails" are recent things, starting in around 1998 or so.

I hope you don't get them all a-twitter at you for showing persistent contrails going back over such a long period of time LOL!!

Read this..

books.nap.edu...

See? Way back then they decided there was something they would have to do to fix these problems we were facing.

Cannons to fire dust in to the atmosphere to block the sun? Yeah that would have gone over really well with the public.

And then you have things like this being leaked to the public...

observer.guardian.co.uk...

Okay so TPTB know that this is a serious problem but they are NOT going to do anything about it? BS! Of course they are going to do something about it! They are NOT going to let the earth roast on a slow bake and they also are NOT going to tell the public just how bad it is.. why? Because the public would freek out and demand an end to all unnessesary factories and corperate endevours.. in fact they might demand that they have a say in all future corperate actions to determine if they would have a negitive affect on OUR planet (and us.. the people living on it)... AND WE CAN"T HAVE THAT NOW CAN WE? So in other words... they had to find a 'quiet' way to get some substance in to the atmosphere in order to block the sun on really sunny days (and since heat rises.. I wonder WHY I only see Chemtrails on really hot sunny days.. this shouldn't happen.. there should be too much heat in the air between earth and space to allow ice crystals to hang there all day). So they started using commercial planes and adding something to the fuel or just dumping it out the wings somehow.. but its happening.

Look at what was going on over Ottawa yesterday...

files.abovetopsecret.com...

See how on the horizon its all WHITE? That is because of the 'view' we have.. we can see (this is so hard to explain in text) more of the crap in the sky.. the layers of it so it becomes opaque. But when you look up, you can only see some of it.

And all that white crap is up there because of this...

files.abovetopsecret.com...

See how they were laying the stuff down all day (btw.. like how the contrail just ENDS all of a sudden.. like the temp just changed all of a sudden.. more like they ran out of crap to spray)? And then .. like you can't see it in the sky above you very well (I have two sets of sun glasses.. one has your typical dark dark dark lenses... but my OTHER ones have that 'blublocker' lens in them... and you can just SEE TONS of crap in the air above you then). The closest I can show you what it looks like is like this... look at the sun here .. or rather look at the light of the sun which I stuck behind this building..

files.abovetopsecret.com...

It is NOT condensation. It is the crap that is coming from behind the planes.. it hangs there ALL DAY and it NEVER disperses.. if there WAS a 'such thing' as persistant spreading contrails.. then when we see military fighter jets HIGH HIGH HIGH up in the sky, they would ALWAYS leave long contrails that would sit there all day.. we'd just have skys covered in it.. btw..


Look at this sat photo..

this-must-stop.com...

That is NOT good for our air okay? I don't care WHAT the REASON is why they are doing this.. it has to stop. We breath that sh1t in all day.

You think those are ALL ice crystals?

Yeah right. At the LEAST its exhaust from the engines.. and it must stop.

Vis Mega...
I feel sorry for you...
it is so sad to see someone try to convince ATSers, using such barbaric methods as independant scientific studies and Pentagon reports.
Don't you know facts are for Kids... not sheep...

Chemtrails don't exist silly rabbit...
after all, the objectivist Howard Roark just said as much didn't he? GAWH... JEESH.... why let a little thing like a pentagon report confuse things?

Or for that matter, why don't you just start blathering about the gulf current slowing to 25% of its previous decades flowrate... or the coincidental timely occurence of tornados in new locations like england or louisiana.

or the freaky coincidence that almost all the scientists that have argued against global man-made weather problems are employed by organizations funded by the same companes that are blamed for the problem by other scientists...

or the rapidly melting glaciers or unprecendented melting of the entire arctic ice sheet...

GAWH...
can't you just let the ostriches go back in the ground?
do you have to confound us with a nasty thing like truth and logic?

I have seen a very clear bright sky turn into a totally cloud covered sky due to the effects of con/chemtrails alone...
so whether they be dirty exhaust or chemicals... IMO that it doesn't matter... it is just plain wrong to have a weather effect (good or bad) from planes.

A study that came out after 9-11 concluded that our day is approximatly 10% darker than it was in 1978 from plane exhaust. That is a large percentage considering WE DO IT DAILY.
Nah... go back in the sand... nothing to see here...
it is all just rumors and hoaxes being perpetrated on us by the pentagon science board and the thousands of independant scientists...


[edit on 9-5-2005 by LazarusTheLong]

Maybe I should get some help eh?


Perhaps "talk to someone" about my "belief system" and how I come about drawing my own conclusions about things?

(heheh)


Thanks man! Actually, I DO really feel silly sometimes telling people that there is this ENORMOUS conspiracy going on right above their heads. And SOMETIMES I really do NOT want to believe it myself... I wish I had never read or heard of such things. The thing is.. I'm looking outside RIGHT NOW, and all I see are .... there are 3 planes outside RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE just drawing HUGE lines in the sky ... why? How is that possiblly condensation? Its 20 degrees outside. There is MORE then enough heat between the ground and space to ensure that NO ICE can form above Ottawa and sit there in the sky for the REST OF THE DAY!

Read this stuff.. and tell me that they are sitting idle while this goes on..

chem11.proboards2.com...

There are like 100 articles there about the climate change we are experiencing. Here are MORE photos about how dramatic the change has been over the years..

chem11.proboards2.com...

If it goes on like that.. we will roast shortly.. simple as that.

So I think they are doing something about it.. plain and simple.

Tell me how ANY of these planes are performing normally...

www.weatherwars.info...

And what is with those twin white 767s anyways?

There is SOMETHING going on.. whatever it is.

It might be as mundane as the fact that they have changed the fuel and put an additive in it that is now just causing massive polution... OR, they use it to cover up the land from spy sats.. or .. they really are trying to block out the sun. Its just that on overcast days.. when its kinda chilly out... I would expect to see them more then on days when its nice and warm out. I know that at 20,000 feet its not 'warm' up there.. but it should still be warm enough to melt ice crystals in the sky..

.. look at those pics I took of the sun behind the building. All that haze in the air WAS the product of the planes passing overhead... I watched it happen.. I was out there on the balcony watching it go down all afternoon. Why is it.. that the portion of the sky that is 'right under the sun' (at the moment) still has those 'ice crystals' in the sky? How is that possible? The sun is beating down (oddly... not as hard as it usually is by this time of year.. usually I have the AC installed and on by now.. but not this year OR last year for that matter.. not till mid-july last year .. this is ALMOST the first SEMI-HOT day we have had) and should melt all the 'ice crystals' if that is what they are.. the problem is.. I know they are not them.. ice crystals form usually on the tips of the wings or some other part of the plane.. NOT directly behind the engines.. this is a NEW phenomon.

Its kinda of frusterating to talk about this though.. in a way.. because it is just so far fetched. Think of the man power that would have to go in to this to get the project done.

The thing is guys.. there are people who remember the skies the way they use to be.. and they were not hazy like they are now. The "contrails" did NOT ever 'fill the sky' from horizon to horizon.. it just DID NOT go down like that when I was a kid.. what has changed?

Like I said.. maybe they just are using CHEEP fuel or not processing it properly.. (that could be it you know.. just cheep fuel these days because the airlines are losing so much money.. so a bunch of the particles just hang there all frelling day.. then you breath them in) .. but something is totally going on. There is no doubt about it. Its IF it is harming us or the planet is the question. And if it is.. then it has to stop.

Simple as that.

At the least there should be an inquiry in to why there is so much jet polution these days.. SOMETHING has happened to the fuel at the LEAST.

There might be another explanation.. that climate change has become so drastic that planes just 'do that' now because of 'how the air is working' now a days.. who knows.. I'm not a scientist, I just play one online.

A friend bought us some binoculars to look at the planes as they go by. Why? Because they know something is going on too.. its JUST not normal what we are seeing above this city.

I think CONCIDERING its a capital city, they are trying to keep it cool and not allow the heat to ruin the economy (which is based in tourism). So they have to keep up appearences now I guess.. btw.. a friend told me that it was just as bad in the GTA area yesterday too.. and there have ALWAYS been tons of planes coming in and out of Pearson.. so why does the sky look the way it does now?

Why don't we see it FROM EVERY plane in the sky at once? We should be able to see every shread of air traffic if its a situation that happens in nature in general.. but we don't.. we only see SOME of the planes and their "contrails" .. why not all of them?

VMX



[edit on 9/5/2005 by Vis Mega]

Lazarus the Long says:

it is so sad to see someone try to convince ATSers, using such barbaric methods as independant scientific studies and Pentagon reports. Don't you know facts are for Kids... not sheep...

Don’t worry, Laz, even though he’s quoting independent scientific studies, you notice that he’s still taking things out of context, like quoting a 13-year-old discussion of theoretical approaches as though it were proof of a Huge Secret Plot, like he did in the National Academies Press. Sort of like reading Edmund Teller’s suggestion to use H-bombs to dig channels as proof that we’re using H-bombs right now to dig channels.

Ooops! I forgot! We’re not using H-bombs to dig channels and harbors, are we?

Or how about this, Laz? Vis Mega quotes a Pentagon report saying that climate change is a real danger as though it were proof of a Huge Secret Plot … Hey! He does that a lot doesn’t he?

Sort of like reading a report coming out that deforestation in the Amazon is damaging the atmosphere, and using that as real proof that we’re going to declare war on Brazil, right? I mean, hey, it’s the same logic, isn’t it?

Or for that matter, why don't you just start blathering about the gulf current slowing to 25% of its previous decades flowrate... or the coincidental timely occurence of tornados in new locations like england or louisiana.

There you go, laz. Some more great logic. The gulf current is slowing down, therefore it must be “chem-trails”. Not only that, but since there are now tornados in Louisiana and England, that’s further proof that there are “chem-trails” and that these very same “chem-trails” cause those tornados.

You know, I’ve had some really serious athlete’s foot for the past couple of months and I never realized until today that the sudden occurrence of athlete’s foot – where it had never been before – is more proof of “chem-trails”. Dang! All this time, and there was the proof right under my nose (or feet, in this case)!

….or the rapidly melting glaciers or unprecendented melting of the entire arctic ice sheet...

Right. More proof of “chem-trails”!

do you have to confound us with a nasty thing like truth and logic?

Don’t worry, Laz. Vis Mega isn’t letting you down by using either truth or logic. He’s coming up with a list of a whole bunch of Bad Things the cause of which he really isn’t sure, and arbitrarily blaming them on “chem-trails” as opposed to the Little Purple Men From Arcturus.

You know – the “straw man” argument.

So we’re safe, Laz. Vis Mega isn’t an oddball. True to form, he (along with someone else in this thread who shall remain anonymous) wouldn’t know “truth” and “logic” if it bit him on the gluteus maximus.

A study that came out after 9-11 concluded that our day is approximatly 10% darker than it was in 1978 from plane exhaust. That is a large percentage considering WE DO IT DAILY.

Ahh! Thank goodness we have some real scientific data here.

This is exactly what we need, Laz! You’ve actually done some great scientific research by finding a scientific report that link a darkening of the sky to “chem-trails”.

I mean it does mention a link to "chem-trails", of course!

Doesn’t it?

Of course it does! Since this is a thread about “chem-trails”, then you’re not going to be like Vis Mega and his “straw man” argument, right? You would never quote an article about a particular phenomenon and then arbitrarily blame it on something you want -- without any evidence, would you?

Of course not!

By the way, I know that you gave us all the link to this article that correlates darkening of the skies to “chem-trails” but – silly me! – I must have lost the link. Be a good fellow and send it again, won’t you?

Lazarus the Long says:

"A study that came out after 9-11 concluded that our day is approximatly 10% darker than it was in 1978 from plane exhaust. That is a large percentage considering WE DO IT DAILY."

And I suppose this is caused by "chem-trails", too?

www.godlikepr... oductions.com/news/item.php?keyid=8502&category=2&scategory=0&PHPSESSID=e3355199fe19180b4684995b3df29bd4

Don’t worry, Laz, even though he’s quoting independent scientific studies, you notice that he’s still taking things out of context, like quoting a 13-year-old discussion of theoretical approaches as though it were proof of a Huge Secret Plot, like he did in the National Academies Press. Sort of like reading Edmund Teller’s suggestion to use H-bombs to dig channels as proof that we’re using H-bombs right now to dig channels.

My god man.. this is SO a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

If I wrote a paper discussing the fact that congress should be blown up (say with an Agro Bomb) in a radical act of patriotism (for WHATEVER reason - not important.. just that there is a 'reason') .. then a few years later WDC is NUKED and there are indications that it was DONE for the REASONS I HAD TALKED ABOUT IN MY PAPER.. who do you think they are going to suspect? You think just because I suggested years prior that it should be done with an Agro bomb and instead it got nuked for the exact same reasons (letter with demands is sent) that I specified in my paper years earlier.. that I'M NOT a valid suspect?

I never said btw.. "HERE IS TOTAL UNDENIABLE PROOF OF GOV COVER UP OF WEATHER MANIPULATION AND THE CHEMTRAIL PHEMONINA!"

Did I?

No I didn't. All I said was "Gee, once up on a time they thought that we were in such serious trouble that this HAD to be done .. and soon .. and then we see what is going on in our skies.. COULD THERE BE A CONNECTION?! I think there is!"

All I said. I'm not trying to debate here.. all I was doing was sharing my opinion and WHY I think that this is going on and WHY I think there is a conspiracy. I'm NOT TRYING to put together a super serious legal like argument accusing ANYONE of specifically DOING THIS... just sharing my opinion. Someone else made a funny joke about how I went about doing it.. and THEN (thanks again btw!)...


.. then you go and proove him right. You basically made his point for him, because the second you saw my links which were JUST BITS of information pointing to the fact that SOMEONE SOMEWHERE at SOME POINT decided that there was a serious problem with the amount of sunlight we are getting dosed with and that SOMETHING needed to be done about it.. you attacked it like as though I had said "Here is SERIOUS PROOF that this is going on." And I didn't. You prooved Laz's point right away.. its great.

Its like I bet you are sitting there.. and you see my 'opinion' and my 'reasons for why I believe what I believe' and you were like so excited that there was someone you could suggest is a complete fool for trying to make others understand his point of view because THAT is basically what I was doing.. "This is what I believe.. here is WHY I believe it.. this IN MY MIND is enough to tell me - and 1000s of other bits of info I've picked up - that SOMETHING is happening here." .. and instead of saying "Gee, well thanks for sharing those links but I don't think thats enough for ME to believe in Chemtrails." .. THATS ALL you had to say.. but instead you want to play "James Randi" to my Uri Geller..


Well I am not Uri Geller and YOU my friend are NOT James Randi.

I'm going to pull apart your attacking of my opinion then I'm not dealing with crap like this anymore..

Vis Mega quotes a Pentagon report saying that climate change is a real danger as though it were proof of a Huge Secret Plot … Hey! He does that a lot doesn’t he?

Gee... yeah sorry to give some links that I've been reading that are the reasons why I believe that something is going on.. its much better to just come in to a thread discussion and start shooting my mouth off. And I didn't quote anything.. and I never said it was PROOF.. in fact, I don't think I could have been anymore like .. "Well.. I dunno guys.. here read this and tell me what you think. See the connection? See what I'm getting at here? This is why I believe this Chemtrail thing has some merit." And you just got rabid over it.. like as if you had a stake in making sure the truth doesn't get out by ridiculing me (though it didn't work.. you are instead.. proving Laz's point). AND.. you arn't origional either.. your tone and the way you picked apart my innocent little post on the matter.. is SO reminicent of the ignorent debunkers of days past.. and ANYONE would agree.. that your arguement is way weak dude... concidering statments like..

"He quotes it LIKE PROOF! of a conspiracy!"

.. though I never did..

Sort of like reading a report coming out that deforestation in the Amazon is damaging the atmosphere, and using that as real proof that we’re going to declare war on Brazil, right? I mean, hey, it’s the same logic, isn’t it?

OMG! LOL! ITS SO NOT THE SAME THING! What is wrong with you man??

Who is paying your salery to deflect any critisim of the subject in such a poor way? They should get their money back.

I don't even understand THAT point you are trying to make. What I said was basically.. "See this report? Well .. it makes me feel like there is NO WAY they would see this sort of thing coming and NOT do anything about it.. that is the way I FEEL about it."

Where does this have to do with "EVIDENCE" or "PROOF"? Hell if I had proof I totally would not be sitting here straightening YOU out.. I'd be spreading the PROOF around instead of trying to ENGAGE IN CONVERSATION ABOUT WHY I FEEL THIS MIGHT BE GOING ON! And YOU could have INSTEAD in ANY WAY once so ever, said "Gee, well.. thats just not enough for me.. but wow.. neet article.. hope it doesn't come to that!"

But you didn't. You attacked what I BELIEVE and have announced that I'm claiming I have proof of a conspiracy.. I don't have PROOF.. just a lot of bits and pieces of information.. and they add up.. yeah its circumstancial.. but do you really think ANY OF US are going to get ACTUAL proof of the goings on if they ARE going on? No.. so you got to go on what you have.. and what I have is the FACT that the skies didn't look like that when I was a child. THE FACT that the 'contrails' I am seeing COVERING THE SKIES (some of you who have SEEN the work being done before wouldn't BELIEVE how bad it looks above Ottawa right now) did NOT happen prior to the 1990s.. not the way it does these days. THE FACT that ice crystals should NOT be able to linger in the sky in direct sun all day when I can't even keep a beer cool in this weather. Its also interesting that the trails are WORSE on bright sunny days. It doesn't make any sense.. so what I'm saying is "See look at these reports.. do they indicate to you if there is a program in the works that they are not telling us about?" .. pretty harmless.. you MUST have an adjenda because of how rabid you are in your attack ON ME.. not on my data.. which I believe is a violation of the rules here.

BUT ANYWAYS!

Lets go on ...

Or for that matter, why don't you just start blathering about the gulf current slowing to 25% of its previous decades flowrate... or the coincidental timely occurence of tornados in new locations like england or louisiana.

There you go, laz. Some more great logic. The gulf current is slowing down, therefore it must be “chem-trails”. Not only that, but since there are now tornados in Louisiana and England, that’s further proof that there are “chem-trails” and that these very same “chem-trails” cause those tornados.

He NEVER said that the CHEMTRAILS are CAUSING this phenomina. What we are SAYING is THAT THIS IS HAPPENING.. and that there is PROBABLLY something underway to PREVENT what the PENTAGON REPORT IS SUGGESTING might happen. They KNEW this stuff was going to happen back in the late 80s when it started becoming CLEAR that SOMETHING VERY DRASTIC was happening to our planets weather system.. and they made MANY very increadable suggestions ON HOW TO STOP THE CHANGES THAT WERE OCCURING. So all we are BOTH saying is.. "Don't you think that they would TRY some of these suggestions they were suggesting back then, to block sunlight and to mitigate the C02 damage? Sounds reasonable that they WOULD TRY SOMETHING to prevent us all from roasting on slow bake right?" and you are attacking it like we claimed we have the solution and the answer to the whole operation.. we don't .. we are just presenting the bits of evidence.. the CLUES .. in much the same way that the police would do research and collect bits of evidence and clues to figure out who committed the crime OR.. in some cases.. if a crime was commited.

Your logic ... the logic you are using to say OUR logic is flawed.. IS FLAWED.

We just presented some bits of info as to WHY we think there is PROBABLLY this campaign going on.. because if you add up all the pieces of info.. it appears that something is going on. Are you so offended by our circumstancial theorys and reasons that you have to come out against us like you have? Your tone makes me feel like perhaps you either have a stake in the adjenda.. or you feel you have to proove that anyone who believes in the possiblity of a conspiracy is "not as smart as you are" and "can't even form a decent argument using usefull studies and links" ... its like you know..

IF THERE WAS a huge explosion in San Fran Bay... and it was mildly radioactive for awhile (1000 years) afterwards.. don't you think .. that perhaps.. SOMEONE decided that Tellers ideas had merit? Or do you go with the governments line that some terrorists were trying to sink S.F.?

What WE are saying.. is the our global weather system is having issues, and that people in the past have proposed some strange ideas (other then just reducing emissions, and changing the worlds lifestyle the EASY way - volentarilly - instead of being forced to change when the planet goes in to final and complete chaos) and HERE is something going on in the skies above us that REALLY FITS the suggestions of the past.. and seems like something they might be doing to block sunlight. Or block the ground from spy sats perhaps. MAYBE they ARE releasing germs in to the world, its SO far fetched.. it CAN"T be possible right - except if they DID do it.. no one would be around after to accuse them of wrong doing - not to mention all of those dead microbiologists that have happened JUST SINCE 9-11.


Your arguement.. is that since we don't have SOLID PROOF.. our 'reasons' for why we 'feel' there is a conspiracy.. then our 'feelings' as to what might be going on.. are COMPLETELY without merit, and we are fools for thinking this way. Well.. I don't know A BETTER why to FIND solid proof then to start looking in to these sorts of old publications.. that is .. I mean.. USUALLY that is how research is done.

And I don't understand what your problem with it being "An Independent Study" either.. I don't think it was independent actually..

Actually had you checked MY FACTS .. (heh.. can't even check the facts that are sitting RIGHT in front of you.. you have a lot of learning to do before you become anywhere near a decent debunker) .. you'd see that.. that first publication was..

Policy Implications of Greenhouse Warming: Mitigation, Adaptation, and the Science Base
National Academy of Sciences, National Academy of Engineering, Institute of Medicine

Hardly independent.

Three US gov research branches (or whatever you'd call them). THEY THOUGHT that SOMETHING had to be done to fix the situation we had gotten ourselves in to. So you think they just DROPPED it all of a sudden. In the fact of that other leaked pentagon document.. do you REALLY believe that they would just stand by and let it happen? I think not. I THINK (but I do not have proof.. sorry if that makes me foolish) that they would try to do something along the lines of what they suggested.. and I think that is what we are seeing in the skies above us. Because it WASN"T going on in the 80s.. so for SOME REASON.. now a days.. the sky can be made WHITE by jet polution. AT THE LEAST.... they changed the fuel maybe? Why is it that those lines are being made then? There has to be a reason.. and do NOT tell me they are regular contrails.. BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT!

I remember from when I was a child HOW contrails looked when they would appear behind a jet.. my mom and I use to LOVE watching a couple of them in formation on those rare occasions when we would see them up north. And when I was VERY YOUNG, I use to think that the plane was pulling a ribbon behind it.. because as the plane moved forward.. the very END of the contrail itself WOULD DISAPPATE... like they are suppose to. What changed that now the entire sky is painted the way it is these days? You know, I'd even sorta believe that perhaps a portion of the atmosphere has been screwed with and THAT is why the contrails are forming more rapidly and lasting longer and turning in to clouds.. making a nice blue sky completely white. But.... that isn't what happened.

Who KNOWS why this is happening.. I can only speculate.. no one was claiming to have the answers man.. so why don't you back off?

You are SO off base here...

Don’t worry, Laz. Vis Mega isn’t letting you down by using either truth or logic. He’s coming up with a list of a whole bunch of Bad Things the cause of which he really isn’t sure, and arbitrarily blaming them on “chem-trails” as opposed to the Little Purple Men From Arcturus.

You are just being ignorent now. Funny concidering your sig. NO ONE claimed that chemtrails were PROOF of climate change. He was just saying how CLIMATE CHANGE is occuring and that the gov WOULD PROBABLLY be inclinded to do 'something' about it.. as indicated in these old publications. Why do you have to be like that man? This was a nice discussion. Almost a nice debate untill you started with the personal attacks. And MISINTURPRETING what we are suggesting. You didn't read.. you just looked for an attack opening and went to it.. and everyone can see that for themselves.

Of course it does! Since this is a thread about “chem-trails”, then you’re not going to be like Vis Mega and his “straw man” argument, right? You would never quote an article about a particular phenomenon and then arbitrarily blame it on something you want -- without any evidence, would you?

Do you come here JUST to slam people who post? JUST to ridicule us? I never made any STRAW MAN argument. In fact.. if you REREAD my inital post.. I make NO CLAIMS and no ARGUEMENT.. I just presented some facts that indicate to ME that I'm on to something here.. possibly the reason for the spraying or if its happening at all for that matter (like I said.. could just be exhaust.. but if it is.. its gotta stop.. its way too bad these days and they have to find a solution to stop painting the skies white with pollution). We are just discussing stuff here.. NO ONE is making ANY CLAIMS.. IN FACT..

I said.. AT THE START OF MY POST...


"I dunno... I think something is up..."


Does that sound like a statement someone makes when they are TRYING DESPERATELY to proove something.. like you are trying to proove how we are (as your sig says) ignoramouses? I'm surprised actually that anyone deals with you here since it seems like your just here to debunk everything (extremely poorly at that) and laugh at all of us. Nice life man. Personally I'm a bit more open minded.. not SO open minded that my brain falls out.. but there have been HISTORICALLY MANY cases of govs exparamenting on their populations.. so its not a stretch to believe this COULD be going on. So if you don't mind.. we're going to keep discussing it until we verify FINALLY if its actually happening.. OR WHY it is happening.

(personally there is NO DOUBT that it IS happening.. I can see it for frell sake.. its just WHY is it happening like that is what I want to know)

Let me show you MORE evidence that you have gone WAY OVER THE LINE OF BASIC RESPECT FOR YOUR FELLOW MEMBER.. see my last line in the initial post Mr Smarty Pants..

You think those are ALL ice crystals?

Yeah right. At the LEAST its exhaust from the engines.. and it must stop.

See? I make NO SUGGESTION as to WHY IT IS HAPPENING... BECAUSE I DON"T KNOW.. all I have is some research pointing to the fact that this might be happening. I DO NOT KNOW WHY so why would I try to make an argument for one case or another? I'm just speculating. Like I do with all of this stuff.. BECAUSE its entertaining to me. People like you.. YOU are the ones taking this stuff WAY WAY WAY too seriously.. and getting so emotionally wrapped up in the idea that people might suspect that there is some sort of conspiracy.. you just instinctively attack.. its really telling actually.

And here is just ANOTHER of your insane connection making mind.. like NO ONE suggested that all this stuff that is happening is the RESULT of the chemtrails.. man, WHAT ARE YOU ON MAN!?

And I suppose this is caused by "chem-trails", too?

Actually if you had done a SHREAD of research on the subject you'd know that actually NO ONE KNOWS if we are getting MORE or LESS sunlight.. the research and exparaments and data gathering by different organisations all get different results.. I've seen papers saying there is MORE sun now.. and others saying there is LESS sun now. Who knows. But no one said it had anything to do with Chemtrails. What I THINK might be happening.. is that they are USING the powered aluminum to block SOME sun so that we don't bake or so the climate doesn't change to rapidly.

Its just what I THINK. I don't have any proof so calm down already.

Its really odd how you came out at us for just sharing our reasoning.

VMX

I was reading one of your old posts..

"Hey, it takes a superior (smarter, more sensitive, or however they choose to define "superior") person to see the Truth that somehow explains why they have failed in so many of their endeavors. And what better way to do so than to come up with a conspiracy -- something over which they have no control and can thus abdicate responsibility?"

So in other words.. because you are a skeptic and because we want to KNOW the truth about these things.. not simply say "Ah its a load of crap and you have NO PROOF so what are you doing believing in this stuff!?" as you do.. this somehow makes you smarter?


You know what I think? I think SOME PEOPLE NEED TO BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE SMARTER because they have to compensate for lacking in other areas.


Why do you feel the need to slam our beliefs and tell us all that only people who are NOT VERY SMART believe in these things? What is wrong with you that you need to go about things this way? Why do you think.. that FAITH or that a BELIEF that is not backed up by SOLID proof by someone makes them not as smart as you?


So you mock us?


You didn't even bother to read what we had written.. you just saw your opening and took it.. and made yourself look like the person with the 'dogma' that projects like this JUST CAN NOT take place and anyone who thinks that something MIGHT be going on is not as smart as you.


Its just sad. The more I read your posts the more I realise that you believe that anyone without a degree in 'something' can not have an opinon OR even present what are the reasons for the way they feel about something. If you hate people like us so much that like to speculate about this stuff then why sit here and chew us out? If you don't believe there is something going on FINE and GREAT! Just tell us why and move on... instead of trashing my reasoning.. which IS NOT flawed because I HAVEN"T DRAWN ANY CONCLUSIONS EXCEPT .. as I said .. SOMETHING is going on and I think I MIGHT know why it is going on.

That is a pretty basic conclusion to draw.. I don't understand how you can trash it. I think anyone else would say that I was keeping an open mind and waiting for MORE evidence (or some actually) or MORE indications and until that happens I'm just going to keep researching.


I happen to know some scientists myself. And they have told me.. quote..

Yes, there is NO DOUBT that SOMETHING is going on .. but I could care less what they are doing. I do not know WHY they are covering up whatever it is that they are doing BUT.. there is NO WAY that those are ice crystals up there. I don't really want to know what it is.

Because they don't want their positons in trouble.. but they KNOW basic science (as I do.. this is why I went to school) and know those are not ice crystals forming.. either that .. or the laws of physics has changed over the last few years.

I also noticed that you claim to work in Aerospace or Defence or something of the like.. you know.. SOME PEOPLE would say that is an indication that you DO have a stake or adjenda in the out come of MY beliefs.. and the beliefs of others. Ridicule us so that NO ONE ELSE would want to go through what people like you put people like me and laz through.. and therefore your side gets to keep doing what its doing and NO ONE is questioning it from then on. You win.

Can you TELL ME .. why ice crystals form SO MUCH now a days and why the WHOLE SKY gets painted with them.. when that USE to NOT happen until about 1990?


Anyways.. I won't defend against attacks anymore that are POORLY thought out and just a boost for your ego. Besides.. I'm distrustfull of people who claim to have credentials and then go around debunking everyone as though its 'their job' ... and there seems to be no shortage of them on the net.





[edit on 10/5/2005 by Vis Mega]

Ok...
Soooo quite obviously we have a reptoid agent spreading disinformation via foot fungus, and advancing his agenda of enslavement of the human race using fruit loops and choclate milk...

nah... just a billybungler in the barrel of borst...

OTS...
I really respect your opinion MOST of the time... You seem to have a few pet peeves that require you to take a vocal stand... so lets not derail the entire topic here while you are on your pedestal...
to bring us back to focus,

I state that the earths environment is in trouble... it is obvious from many reputable reports (pentagon report for one). More so than most people want to admit.
this allows the consideration that there MAY be a secret plot to reverse the trend... one that every scientist involved with would understand the reason for secrecy.
Of all the "non greed" type conspiracys I have studied, this plays out the best...

I am not asking you to put a tinfoil hat on... only to give the benefit of the doubt for the moment
I really don't think it requires Chemtrails... it just requires the generation of ozone in the upper atmosphere, from burning fuel. I clearly remember a scientific seminar on the growing ozone hole above australia/antartica. The perfect "dream" solution would have been to exhaust the smog from LA into the depletion zone (of course couldn't be done)... but the point is, the same thing that is bad for us down here, is good for us up there (ozone).

I have personally seen, a normally lightly traveled sky zone become infested with contrails to the point of turning a perfectly sunny bright day, into a totally cloud covered day... the trails didn't dissapate, they expanded and increased in density...
If you want to argue with my eyes, I have to warn you... they know Judo...

I do appreciate that there are atmospheric conditions that can cause trails to stay around... but "FILL A SKY"? come on now...
if that is just contrails... then they need to do something about all that pollution... If I wanted to live in a cloudy part of the country, I would move to alaska. I live in Oklahoma, where if you don't like the weather, wait 5 minutes... it will blow right over (except for these)...

1. So, can you attest that a few planes leaving contrails would literally fill a sky, and thicken... and not leave an effect on our environment? (con or chem)

2. Can you also attest that there are common weather control experiments being conducted by airplanes in out in the open experiments and processes?
(i can introduce you to a few cloud seeders if you want... nice farmer types)

3. Can you also attest that there are air dispersal experiments being done, with pesticides, funguscides and other agents (including lightly radioactive powders to study the spread of a "cropduster type terror attack") That would technically be called "chemtrails"? (in the news all the time)

OTS, these are all facts... ones that can slap you in the face... and you know it...
so lets start here, and see if there might be any other devious "not so open" studies being done with fuel additives to allow planes to have more persistant smog/con trails than usual...
probably for the purpose of affecting the weather... which is already being done openly by universities and labs,
so is that such a strech?

Ill toss out my two cents.. or three... maybe fifty...

1. So, can you attest that a few planes leaving contrails would literally fill a sky, and thicken... and not leave an effect on our environment? (con or chem)

The fact that they thicken shows that they are not comprised of foreign matter, and that the thickening is merely the contrail acting as a catalyst for stratocirrus cloud formation. Unless of course it is suggested that the matter being sprayed is having water condense upon it, in which case, where's the chem-rain?

. Can you also attest that there are common weather control experiments being conducted by airplanes in out in the open experiments and processes?
(i can introduce you to a few cloud seeders if you want... nice farmer types)

Yes...

3. Can you also attest that there are air dispersal experiments being done, with pesticides, funguscides and other agents (including lightly radioactive powders to study the spread of a "cropduster type terror attack") That would technically be called "chemtrails"? (in the news all the time)

Yes...

I agree the possibility of a vast conspiracy exists, although it's a slim one. There has been no positive evidence to support the existance of such a project. Absolutely nothing other than uneducated observer reports of persistant condensation trails has fueled these allegations.

Yo, Vis and you too, Woodrow.
Here are a couple of posts that I made in another thread that cover some of the science of contrails

post1

post2

post3

post4

post5

a neat contrail picture:


From:
www.spaceweather.com...

vis says (among many other things):

My god man.. this is SO a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Where do I post something as proof of anything?

”If I wrote a paper discussing the fact that congress should be blown up (say with an Agro Bomb) in a radical act of patriotism (for WHATEVER reason - not important.. just that there is a 'reason') .. then a few years later WDC is NUKED and there are indications that it was DONE for the REASONS I HAD TALKED ABOUT IN MY PAPER.. who do you think they are going to suspect? You think just because I suggested years prior that it should be done with an Agro bomb and instead it got nuked for the exact same reasons (letter with demands is sent) that I specified in my paper years earlier.. that I'M NOT a valid suspect?”

It’s ANFO, not AGRO, and yes, you’d be a suspect. But that’s not because you did it, it’s because the cops are paranoid.

The point is, you are trying to make a logical connection and failing to do so. If you didn’t think there was a causal (as opposed to casual) relationship between a bunch of stories taken completely out of context and the "chem-trail" hoax, you wouldn’t have mentioned them in the first place. I think most people here would agree that you consider some of those completely irrelevant are some sort of evidence or proof of a Huge Plot – and they’re not.

If you think they’re proof, you’re wrong.

If you don’t think they’re proof, then why do you continue to bring them up?

“. I'm NOT TRYING to put together a super serious legal like argument accusing ANYONE of specifically DOING THIS”

Good.

“.. then you go and proove him right. You basically made his point for him, because the second you saw my links which were JUST BITS of information pointing to the fact that SOMEONE SOMEWHERE at SOME POINT decided that there was a serious problem with the amount of sunlight we are getting dosed with and that SOMETHING needed to be done about it.. you attacked it like as though I had said "Here is SERIOUS PROOF that this is going on." And I didn't. You prooved Laz's point right away.. its great”

Actually I was being sarcastic, just like he was. I hope it didn’t go over his head!

”… but instead you want to play "James Randi" to my Uri Geller.. “

No. Geller is a deliberate hoaxer, and I don’t think you are. I think you really believe this stuff, whereas Geller is a liar.

However, I do appreciate your equating me to Randi; I admire him quite a bit.

Well I am not Uri Geller and YOU my friend are NOT James Randi.

See above.

“Who is paying your salery to deflect any critisim of the subject in such a poor way? They should get their money back”

Whom did you pay for your spell checker? You should get your money back LOL!

”I don't even understand THAT point you are trying to make.”

So I gather. But I am not responsible for your understanding or lack thereof.

And I think you need to relax a bit. I have a feeling that by the time you got to the end of page four your BP was probably 180/140.

Laz says:

OTS... I really respect your opinion MOST of the time...

You’d better, since I voted you WATS earlier today on that “Sex with boys: The root of Islamic Terror” thread.

You seem to have a few pet peeves that require you to take a vocal stand... so lets not derail the entire topic here while you are on your pedestal...

Soap-Box, actually. And yes, “chem-trails” are a pet peeve of mine, because the whole talk about them, in addition to being a cruel hoax believed by well-meaning but ignorant people, is a deliberate slap to my profession, my employer, the military of which I am a proud veteran, and my country.

”I state that the earths environment is in trouble... it is obvious from many reputable reports (pentagon report for one). More so than most people want to admit. this allows the consideration that there MAY be a secret plot to reverse the trend... one that every scientist involved with would understand the reason for secrecy.”

I agree that the Earth’s environment is in trouble, and although it allows for the consideration that there may be a secret plot to reverse the trend, it also allows for the consideration that the whole thing is a plot by Australian wombats. And both of those considerations, in my never-humble opinion, have the same believability. And why would every scientist want to cover up the fact that they’re trying to save the world?

“I am not asking you to put a tinfoil hat on... only to give the benefit of the doubt for the moment ... I really don't think it requires Chemtrails... it just requires the generation of ozone in the upper atmosphere, from burning fuel. I clearly remember a scientific seminar on the growing ozone hole above australia/antartica. The perfect "dream" solution would have been to exhaust the smog from LA into the depletion zone (of course couldn't be done)... but the point is, the same thing that is bad for us down here, is good for us up there (ozone).”

You’re assuming that injecting ozone into the ozone layer would solve the thinning of ozone over the Southern Hemisphere around Antarctica and southern Chile. Problem is that the planes fly at an altitude of 6 to 8 miles; the ozone layer is around 12 to 50 miles, above the flight regime of any commercial jet (now that the Concorde is gone). So you might want to ask yourself this:

(1) what good is spraying ozone when it’s miles too low to do any good?; and

(2) if the ozone layer is thinnest over Antarctica and far southern Chile and Argentina, what are all these airplanes doing spraying “chem.-trails” here?

I have personally seen, a normally lightly traveled sky zone become infested with contrails to the point of turning a perfectly sunny bright day, into a totally cloud covered day... the trails didn't dissapate, they expanded and increased in density...

So what else is new? I have seen condensation trails turn a clear sky into an overcast sky myself. And I have explained, in agonizing detail, exactly why it happens and it is a perfectly normal occurrence which follow exactly the basic laws of physics, and I have done it at least a hundred times, half of which were on this very forum.

”I do appreciate that there are atmospheric conditions that can cause trails to stay around... but "FILL A SKY"? come on now... “

Yes. Fill a sky. Ice crystals act as seeds for cloud formation all the time. Sometimes its scattered ice crystals from naturally forming cirrus clouds. Sometime it’s scattered ice crystrals originally put there by aircraft exhaust. The skies have been becoming completely overcast from previously clear conditions for millions of years. With a bunch of aircraft flying and injecting hot water vapor into saturated and super-cold ambient air, you’re going to get even more such occurrences. Big deal.

“If that is just contrails... then they need to do something about all that pollution... If I wanted to live in a cloudy part of the country, I would move to alaska. I live in Oklahoma, where if you don't like the weather, wait 5 minutes... it will blow right over (except for these)...”

I agree. Aircraft contrails are already causing more clouds, which can increase the Earth’s albedo. The net result is probably a lowering of the nocturnal/diurnal temperature delta, which puts additional climatic stress on critters. But that doesn’t make it a plot, Laz.

”1. So, can you attest that a few planes leaving contrails would literally fill a sky, and thicken... and not leave an effect on our environment? (con or chem)”

Yes. I suggest that you read some of the more scientific stuff about cloud formation. If you like, I will be happy to provide you links. Again.

”2. Can you also attest that there are common weather control experiments being conducted by airplanes in out in the open experiments and processes? (i can introduce you to a few cloud seeders if you want... nice farmer types)”

Yes. Look at the crop dusters, and the “dynogel” guys. Look at the MASS equipment on C-130s. It’s all over the place.

”3. Can you also attest that there are air dispersal experiments being done, with pesticides, funguscides and other agents (including lightly radioactive powders to study the spread of a "cropduster type terror attack") That would technically be called "chemtrails"? (in the news all the time)”

Of course I can attest to all those things! What is your point? No one is saying that there are not a lot of aerosol experiments happening and even more probably have been done in the past. But that is not what the “chem-trail” believers are talking about. They seem to believe that there’s some sort of Secret Plot, and there isn’t any evidence for that.

”OTS, these are all facts... ones that can slap you in the face... and you know it... so lets start here, and see if there might be any other devious "not so open" studies being done with fuel additives to allow planes to have more persistant smog/con trails than usual...”

Sure.

And there might be a whole bunch of plots, including the Atlanteans and the Little Purple Men from Arcturus, and the Grey Spaceship Guys under the Nazi base in Antarctica. We can see if any of them are around, too.

But I haven’t seen any evidence, and it appears the “chem-trail” believers haven’t either; otherwise they’d be providing it rather than talking about what might be.

Something that always makes me wonder about "chem-trails" is why don't "they" just simply do it on overcast days?

No one would notice then would they?

You have voted Vis Mega for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Great post You said what I wish I'd said to our professional de-bunker.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
And why would every scientist want to cover up the fact that they’re trying to save the world?

That's pretty obviouse...They don't want us to know the World needs saving. You know, that panic thing they worry about?

You know, just because you have an emotional tie to an industry that could be involved in something that you wouldn't feel comfortable with does not mean it can't be happening. And going around debunking it is not going to make it go away. It's amazing how we try to cover up, or justify, wrong doings to make us feel more comfortable about doing our jobs.

Originally posted by PistolPete
Something that always makes me wonder about "chem-trails" is why don't "they" just simply do it on overcast days?

No one would notice then would they?

Exactly

btw this morning BBC TV broadcast a film of military aircraft producing what appeared to be normal contrails but which in a later shot were seen to be spreading across the sky in typical 'chemtrail' fashion........

The film was taken during the Battle of Britain