The danger of telling people about psi

Esoterica,

OOBE's to me are different. ESP to me is something that you can experience and/or use right now.
As for what I have experienced with esp, is just methods that I have learned and have been able to do and that everyone can learn to do. You can learn it yourself.

Orgone generators and orgone accumulators are similar, but still different. They as legit as the monitor in front of you. The ones I have emit orgone, and I can feel it, just as others around me can feel it too. It's no doubt for me that it's real. Same for radionics. You can even build your own radionic box and your own orgone generator and try the stuff out for yourself. There are plans everywhere, here are some examples.

www.gocs1.com...
www.littlemountainsmudge.com...

This is plain backyard experimenting with a detailed hand out. So if you would really like to know if it's true or not, it's not that much of a stretch to find out.

The MMPI itself doesn't say that 1 positive answer is abnormal. Of the 16 or so questions, I think they said more than 8-11 was abnormal.

This shrink was a bureaucrat, who didn't even have to apply the test according to its own standards.

he could pull anyone out of the line that he wanted to and just hassle them and their career.

He wasn't just doing his job. He was messing with people for the fun of it.

A shrink is someone who may end up with a great deal of power over your future. If/when that person is not competent or interested in your best interests, then lying to them is the only sane course.

I have dealt with a large number of shrinks while in Law enforcement. Probably 25-40 of them, in the process of various investigations/sentencing issues. Most of them are about as reliable as astrologers when it comes to building put a "profile." The gifted ones probably have some insight. The rest are just snake-oil merchants.

If what I say is not the case, then why are District Attorneys so famous for shopping for shrinks? If you don't like the results you get, you find a different one, and have the first discontinue his report. This is done every day, and many contracts with judicial districts even have a clause that a shrink doesn't turn in a report until "approved" by investigators. Just in case something in it might ruin the state's case.

I ask you something- If the original experiment to prove that orgone energy even exists is faulty, then why would you ever think that a generator for it would work? Please note that your anecdotes of yourself and other people feeling energy hold no scientific water. You'd need a controlled test, which so far either have not been done (even by true beleivers), or have and have failed. Read further, please-

As for 'feeling' it-

I went to the IONS website. I took the various ESP tests. I concentrated, and "felt" energy and saw images and everything that people say they experience. I fully beleived that if it was possible, it would work. I *wanted* it to work.

And guess what, I hit the statistical probability of myself being "right".

So either that means I suck at ESP even when I try my hardest, or it was just all in my head. Which one do you think I believe?

And I'm not downloading anything called "CyberShaman" until I'm confident it isn't going to infect my comp with spyware up the wazoo

If anybody can learn to do this, how come none of these trained peoples have ever been able to demonstrate it in a controlled experiment? If you reply to anything, please reply to this question.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
snip

OK, that makes more sense. But this kid is already in too far, the guy is going to know he's lying when he says "I was just kidding around."

Originally posted by Esoterica
I ask you something- If the original experiment to prove that orgone energy even exists is faulty, then why would you ever think that a generator for it would work? Please note that your anecdotes of yourself and other people feeling energy hold no scientific water. You'd need a controlled test, which so far either have not been done (even by true beleivers), or have and have failed. Read further, please-

As for 'feeling' it-

Well then you can do it yourself to prove it exists or not. With a controlled test. or not? Make one yourself or buy one. But we've strayed too much off topic with that already, you can start a new thread for that. You can talk anything you want, but you can attempt to prove for yourself if these things are true or not.. And I mean some paranormal phenomena, including ESP and OOBE's. Start practising (if you really would like to know).

I went to the IONS website. I took the various ESP tests. I concentrated, and "felt" energy and saw images and everything that people say they experience. I fully beleived that if it was possible, it would work. I *wanted* it to work.

And guess what, I hit the statistical probability of myself being "right".

So either that means I suck at ESP even when I try my hardest, or it was just all in my head. Which one do you think I believe?

After just one try, you already form your conclusion that it's not real, and just something that's in your head. How nice.

How about trying this.

Learn to go into a very relaxed state, preferably deep alpha or theta. Visualize a scenery (in 5 sensory detail) and see a person in there that you personally know. See and describe this in 5 sensory detail to a person next to you or to a tape recorder. See yourself go into that person and describe out loud whatever feelings and thoughts you receive. After that excersize, which takes practise to learn properly of course, contact that person in real life and ask them where they were and what they were thinking on at such and such time.

Or you can take it even further. While you're in that person (in the visualization) see something in front of you, (like a chinese building or the Big Ben) see it in detail, and then after talk to that person as soon as you can. You can do other things as well, like see a steak, feel the craving for it, see the person eating it with you in a certain restaurant, and then forget about it.

And I'm not downloading anything called "CyberShaman" until I'm confident it isn't going to infect my comp with spyware up the wazoo

And so what, that's your loss because there's not a shred of evidence that it has spyware in it. There is none. Period.

If anybody can learn to do this, how come none of these trained peoples have ever been able to demonstrate it in a controlled experiment? If you reply to anything, please reply to this question.

How are you so sure that none have been able to demonstrate it in a controlled experiment.?

www.survivalafterdeath.org...

(the references are below in that page)

[edit on 4-5-2005 by TheBandit795]

Originally posted by TheBandit795
Well then you can do it yourself to prove it exists or not. With a controlled test. or not? Make one yourself or buy one. But we've strayed too much off topic with that already, you can start a new thread for that. You can talk anything you want, but you can attempt to prove for yourself if these things are true or not.. And I mean some paranormal phenomena, including ESP and OOBE's. Start practising (if you really would like to know).

But if it ends up not working, someone will just bring up the old explanation of "You didn't really believe" or "maybe you just weren't meant to succeed" or any number of cop-outs.

After just one try,

Several tires, and this isn't the first time I've taken such tests. Always the same.

you already form your conclusion that it's not real, and just something that's in your head. How nice.

And how many clinical trials have you taken?

How about trying this.

Learn to go into a very relaxed state, preferably deep alpha or theta. Visualize a scenery (in 5 sensory detail) and see a person in there that you personally know. See and describe this in 5 sensory detail to a person next to you or to a tape recorder. See yourself go into that person and describe out loud whatever feelings and thoughts you receive. After that excersize, which takes practise to learn properly of course, contact that person in real life and ask them where they were and what they were thinking on at such and such time.

If you visualize someone you knwo, then obviously you'll have an idea of where they'll be. People I knwo would be outside in a park-like atmospherre, or in an apartment, or in a classroom, or in an office, or driving in a car. The test is skewed because I already have a limited number of options as to where they could be, all of which I know about.

It would go something like-
"Hey Mike, were you around some trees, a sidewalk, maybe there was a river nearby? Was it sunny and windy?"
"Why yes, yes I was. Like I cam almsot every day."

Sorry, that type of test is way too personal to be meaningful.

Or you can take it even further. While you're in that person (in the visualization) see something in front of you, (like a chinese building or the Big Ben) see it in detail, and then after talk to that person as soon as you can. You can do other things as well, like see a steak, feel the craving for it, see the person eating it with you in a certain restaurant, and then forget about it.

See above.

How are you so sure that none have been able to demonstrate it in a controlled experiment.?

www.survivalafterdeath.org...

(the references are below in that page)

Yet none of those experiments were conducted after the 60's. Standards of science and experimentation have changed. Any number of factors could have affected the results that can be explained outside of ESP.

Now, those experiments are intriguing, anda re among the reasons why I don't disbeliev ein ESP. But 40 year old experiments are hardly a reason to accept it outright. Especially when everyone and their brother around here claims to have some ability, and very few people ever question it.

If you want to learn, question. If someone says they have ESP, question everything about it, search out every other possible explanation. Then, when you've done that and it still isn't explained, start to believe. Accepting everything right off the bat doesn't expand knowledge at all. Deny Ignorance doesn't mean to accept something just because it goes against the grain, or because it's parannormal, or because it may open up a new avenue of knowledge (as many here seem to think). Deny Ignorance means to analyze things in an intelligent matter and trying your damnedest to make sure it's legit. Home-brew experiments with your friends and family don't do this.

Are we missing the point? This is what I would do, no lie:

Tell that shrink to kiss your azz, and bring a sketchpad to draw on or a book to read so that you'll have something to do for the rest of the session.

Originally posted by elemtalsage
Yes I made one of the dumbest things you can do. I spilled to one of my friends he told his mom, his mom told mine and I start theropy tomarrow. This is a warning to all out there for braging rights aviod telling people its out of main stream thought

ah ha, there is the Fly Paper you, yourself created...

i take it that you were 'embellishing' some of your actual -and some imagined- experiences...no?
maybe you presented yourself as a Harry Potter type Wizard
or a Merlin type Magician...possessing powers extrodinare' ...no?

you 'friend' can be rationalized as a 'friend' or just an aquaintence after this episode...no?''

H Potters & Merlins, are fine for fantasy worlds but are not adventageous
as role models on which to base your real-world, pragmatic, philosophies & world-views,
my take on ESP or PSI is that they reside with the meme called Lady Luck,
persons who 'dwell' on Lady Luck, and conduct their lives around it, are usually characterized as having a Gambling Addiction.
In a similar way...Faith & Beliefs in a Supernatural power/force/God
could be technically viewed as being in the realm of ESP or Luck...BUT...
There is a l-o-n-g history of those Faiths/Beliefs/Religions having a positive effect on individuals and societies....

there is not a good or long track record of positive influences or results
on people who commit themselves to, or immerse themselves in PSI or ESP or LadyLuck...

everyone can quibble on if religion or luck or esp are 'real'
only one of the three is regarded as an acceptable lifestyle focus
take-it-or-leave-it,
as you wish

Originally posted by Esoterica
But if it ends up not working, someone will just bring up the old explanation of "You didn't really believe" or "maybe you just weren't meant to succeed" or any number of cop-outs.

Uhh nope... Some things can work even if you don't believe in them. Like OOBE's for example. There not so difficult methods used to achieve an OOBE. There are lots of ATS members who have done this.

Several tires, and this isn't the first time I've taken such tests. Always the same.

I don't know where you live, but you might be able to enlist yourself as a test subject to Princeton University or one of the other institutions if you're near them of course.

you already form your conclusion that it's not real, and just something that's in your head. How nice.

And how many clinical trials have you taken?

How about trying this.

Learn to go into a very relaxed state, preferably deep alpha or theta. Visualize a scenery (in 5 sensory detail) and see a person in there that you personally know. See and describe this in 5 sensory detail to a person next to you or to a tape recorder. See yourself go into that person and describe out loud whatever feelings and thoughts you receive. After that excersize, which takes practise to learn properly of course, contact that person in real life and ask them where they were and what they were thinking on at such and such time.

If you visualize someone you knwo, then obviously you'll have an idea of where they'll be. People I knwo would be outside in a park-like atmospherre, or in an apartment, or in a classroom, or in an office, or driving in a car. The test is skewed because I already have a limited number of options as to where they could be, all of which I know about.

It would go something like-
"Hey Mike, were you around some trees, a sidewalk, maybe there was a river nearby? Was it sunny and windy?"
"Why yes, yes I was. Like I cam almsot every day."

Sorry, that type of test is way too personal to be meaningful.

Not if you pick a number of different people, from which you really don't have no idea of what they're doing or thinking at the time. Without trying it yoursel, you wouldn't know.

Yet none of those experiments were conducted after the 60's. Standards of science and experimentation have changed. Any number of factors could have affected the results that can be explained outside of ESP.

Now, those experiments are intriguing, anda re among the reasons why I don't disbeliev ein ESP. But 40 year old experiments are hardly a reason to accept it outright. Especially when everyone and their brother around here claims to have some ability, and very few people ever question it.

There have been experiments conducted after the 60's. The researches are now past the stage of trying to prove that ESP exist. There trying to find out how now. But not much of their colleagues are taking it seriously. If scientists didn't have to worry about their reputation, much more would've been studying ESP and other paranormal phenomena.

If you want to learn, question. If someone says they have ESP, question everything about it, search out every other possible explanation. Then, when you've done that and it still isn't explained, start to believe. Accepting everything right off the bat doesn't expand knowledge at all.

Of course, and that's true. For years I've questioned my experiences, but for OOBE's for example I've never found any other explanation. Neither for the other ones.

Deny Ignorance doesn't mean to accept something just because it goes against the grain, or because it's parannormal, or because it may open up a new avenue of knowledge (as many here seem to think). Deny Ignorance means to analyze things in an intelligent matter and trying your damnedest to make sure it's legit. Home-brew experiments with your friends and family don't do this.

Yes they do. Seeing is believing. You can do the experiments at home, and build the gadgets at home. That's also denying ignorance.