The danger of telling people about psi

Yes I made one of the dumbest things you can do. I spilled to one of my friends he told his mom, his mom told mine and I start theropy tomarrow. This is a warning to all out there for braging rights aviod telling people its out of main stream thought

my advice is to claim you were joking. Say that your friend had told a stupid yarn, and expected you to believe him. SO you retaliated by making up an even stupidER line.

This is not the time to try your Balducci levitation at the dr's. office.

Good idea or else they will have a hay day with you.Hmmm. he is using his childhood fantasies to cope with life it looks like you will be here for the duration of this year.I would let them know he misinterpeted it.We know you are not crazy. .

I'm sure you can find some scientific studies into psi on the internet to prove it's more than a hallucination. I'm sorry that happened man... just tell the therapist there's nothing wrong with you.

dr_strangrecraft gave the best advice. Mainstream people can't see further than what's in front of their nose. So just play along and lie to them that you were joking.

If that fails, show your mom about the books "The Holographic Universe", "The Field" and other similar works.

The Holographic theory (which is thought to be one of the most accurate portrayals of how the world around us works) actually supports the notion that psi is real. And it was co-developed by one of Einstein's protege's: David Bohm.

Or about the scientific research going on in the field.

www.psiresearch.org...

www.ions.org...

www.princeton.edu...

Best thing to do- demonstrate your ESP powers to the doctor. This will do one of two things:

Prove to the world ESP exists
or
Get you the help you actually need

Not to sound mean, but if you believe you have paranormal powers, asking you to demonstrate them doesn't seem like too big a thing to ask.

EDIT: I should probably clarify what I mean. If you truly think you have abilities like telekinesis, clairvoyance, precognition, etc... but you cannot prove it, then having someone to help you might be a good thing. It could be damaging to your lfie you think you can do these things and you really can't. They could end up influencing you into making a bad decision.

[edit on 5-3-2005 by Esoterica]

TheBandit795
dr_strangrecraft gave the best advice. Mainstream people can't see further than what's in front of their nose. So just play along and lie to them that you were joking.

That is possibly the absolute worst advice you could possibly give him. It's not that people "can't see past what's in front of them" (so much pseudophilosophical bull#), it's that there is a very real possibility that this guy HAS NO ESP POWERS. It's a very real possibility that he's tricked himself into thinking he has. And if he's not careful, it could get him into trouble (not trouble like this, but trouble that actually affects him). If he does have any sort of power, he should show it to someone else. Sitting alone in your room, thinking you have ESP, is not any good at all. You need confirmation of his powers. I mean, if he can't demonstrate them to anyone but himself, then that's leaves open the very very likely possiblity it's all in his head. Or he's just gullible.

So, you told him to lie to his friend, his mother, and his doctor. GREAT ADVICE! These are people that think he needs help. If they're wrong, then let him show it. If they're right, then maybe he might just need some help.

Jesus Christ, mods telling people to lie to their parents after seeking medical treatment for what could very likely be a medical condition. Deny Facts, I suppose, to defend yourself from the possibility that he might be wrong

Sage, I'm not trying to insult you in any way. I'm entirely open to the possibility that you really do have something going on. But I'm also open to the possibility that it's just in your head. Maybe you're just a kid who doesn't understand probability, maybe you have an active imagination, maybe you really are telepathic. But if it's either of the former two, someone needs to point that out, for your own good.

Here, do me a favor, post why you think you have psi powers, preferably with soem numbers (like you guessed 10 out of 15 cards correct or something along those lines).


[edit on 5-4-2005 by Esoterica]

I've been watching this thread to see where it goes since I wasn't exactly sure what to think of it...

I realize that mainstream society doesn't openly believe (or admit to believe) in psychic energy, but that's no reason to back down. I'm assuming that you're talking about the more physical aspects of psi, such as telekenesis and building energy constructs. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Exactly what did you tell your friend? That psi simply exists, or that you can control it?

I have to agree with Esoterica. You should not lie and say you were "just kidding." The way I see it, the solution to this problem is not complex. No therapist can prove that psi does not exist, and there is far more evidence to prove it does than there is to prove that it doesn't. But what they can do is prove that you can not perform any of these 'paranormal' tasks, which in their eyes, is not only proof that psi does not exist, but proof that your are insane. That does not make them right, however.

So, if asked to demonstrate psychic abilities you should only tell the truth. If, in fact, you do have these abilities, demonstrate them. They can't say you're crazy if you do it right there in front of their eyes. If you can't, then you should admit it. However, admiting that you can not do these things does not mean that no one else can, nor does it necessarily mean that you could not learn to do them, over time, if you so desired.

And if you really are insane, then go all out. Don't go down as the mundane crazy guy. Start speaking in tongues, and/or humping chairs in order to assert your male dominance... or female dominance, whatever the case may be. Show 'em what a crazy person is made of.

[edit on 4-5-2005 by CloudlessKnight]

Esoterica, you don't understand...

To understand what I mean you'll have to know how the (subconscious) mind works, and how beliefs can influence everything in your life. Even if he has developed psi abilities, the chance that he will be able to prove them to other people is plain slim. The actual observation of those people, and their strict belief... no conviction that the boy fail might in itself actually cause the boy to fail. Unless the boy has a strong conviction that he is able to do it in front of everyone and everybody, regardless of who they are and what their beliefs are. Unwittingly, their psi ability (subconscious conviction which has influence) might overpower his, or they might cause him to fail just because of the pressure for him to prove that he can actually do it.

Nobody has the absolute knowledge on what's real and what's normal in this life and this universe. Especially not the average person. There is just a mass agreement/concensus/assumption of what's real, what's true and what's normal. And everybody goes about their business based on this assumption. Science is not even close to getting the truth as yet. Yet we behave as if we know exactly how life works, and that everybody who doesn't agree is crazy and needs to see a shrink. Scientists have admit that they don't even know 5% of what there exists in this galaxy alone. New theories and discoveries come out every day. Also in the area of parapsychology aka psi. But still we want to send people to see a shrink because perhaps there a small chance that their awareness has opened up a little bit more than the 1% of everything we experience with our five senses and the 5% with our instruments. That's what's insane.

This is only one of the consecuences of the materialistic Newtonian paradigm that people in the western world have had for the last 300 years. It has worked perfectly for us in the past, but now there are more accurate frames of thought on what life is, and what the world and the universe is then that old, outdated paradigm.

If he was living in the 50's and told his mom that he could be consistently healthy by being in a positive state of mind she would send him straight to the shrink as well. Yet scientists and other medical professionals are accepting this to be true nowadays.

They are apparently living with two different frames of thought, two different paradigms, yet because one paradigm is older and more established than the other one, it's automatically the right one.

If that boy's mother was my mother I probably would've been in a psychiatric institution a long time ago, if I just mentioned to her that I've had several Out-of-body experiences. Now how in Zeus's name do you want me to demonstrate that to others? Conditions for Out-of-body experiences have to be perfect. I have to be very relaxed and my subconscious has to focus on it at least. Unless I'm so good that I can just sit down for two minutes and come out anytime I want, anywhere and in every circumstance I would never be able to convince that mother, and that doctor that I can actually have OOBE's.

It's not that simple as you portray it.

You can play the best basketball at home with your friends, but in a big tournament you can't play crap because of your inability to block out the crowd, the pressure etc... Are you unable to play basketball because of that??

Or you play the soccer of the God's in a team in Italy, and for some reason you can't kick a decent ball in England. Are you unable to play soccer because of that??

That's what it is about.



[edit on 4-5-2005 by TheBandit795]

Originally posted by Esoterica

Esoterica, it is indeed a small world...

None of us are in the position to guage this dude's powers.

In counseling, you treat the problem that is presented to you. You aren't supposed to tell the patient he "has other problems" unless you have sat down and done a thorough review of his life-situation.

And why not? Because, he didn't ask you for help with his schizophrenia; he asked for help surviving in his cultural milieu.

The problem presented is, "How do I deal with this?" and not "do I have Psi powers?"

He seemed to be asking for emotional help, and not scientific/philosophical help. Besides, if he has aberrant cognition, he isn't going to be able to hide it for long.

And another thing. Don't even begin to tell me that you believe for a second the BS you wrote about how horrible it is to lie. Lying to preserve your social position and your independence is a part of adult life.

It is pretty hollow to tell someone else (a total stranger) that they have to "tell the truth at all costs" and suffer all of the social fallout which it entails, when you aren't offering to take any personal responsibility for the repercussions it has, possibly for the rest of his life. Once you get that little "Psycho" tag in your permanent record, you can forget about getting health insurance or any respectable job. Nowadays, no decent law school will accept you if you have an "emotional history."

Make a friend of your counselor. They are the only one who can help you out of this situation. And make your "friend" pay for telling on you. Sorry life sucks for you. It sucks for me too.
-tom

Originally posted by spikenigma
Esoterica, it is indeed a small world...

Well I'll be darned

TheBandit795
Esoterica, you don't understand...
*snipped pseudointellectual bull# translated roughly as "I can't prove a damn thing, and it's your fault for not taking my word"*

Let's use your logic. Scientists don't know everything in the universe. Which means they don't know about the invisible elves that hold me down to the Earth. If they ever left, I'd go hurtling off into space.

Hey, aren't you the Radionics guy? Yes, you are. That explains a couple things.

You can play the best basketball at home with your friends, but in a big tournament you can't play crap because of your inability to block out the crowd, the pressure etc... Are you unable to play basketball because of that??

Or you play the soccer of the God's in a team in Italy, and for some reason you can't kick a decent ball in England. Are you unable to play soccer because of that??

That's what it is about.

If I met a guy who said he could play soccer, but when he went out on the field he didn't even know which way the goal was, didn't know you could only use your feet, and tackeld the ref, then no I wouldn't believe a thing he said

dr_strangecraft
*snipped attempts to deny the obvious*.

So, basically, you're saying that you're allowed to assume he has powers but I'm not allowed to assume he doesn't. Gotcha.

And another thing. Don't even begin to tell me that you believe for a second the BS you wrote about how horrible it is to lie. Lying to preserve your social position and your independence is a part of adult life.

It is pretty hollow to tell someone else (a total stranger) that they have to "tell the truth at all costs" and suffer all of the social fallout which it entails, when you aren't offering to take any personal responsibility for the repercussions it has, possibly for the rest of his life. Once you get that little "Psycho" tag in your permanent record, you can forget about getting health insurance or any respectable job. Nowadays, no decent law school will accept you if you have an "emotional history."

It's not horrible to lie per se. But horrible to lie when someone is trying to get to medical help that it is entirely possible you need? Certainly. Especially since any psychologist is going to know when he's lying about "making it up." These guys aren't stupid.

As for the Psycho tag, I'd like to see some sources on how adversely that affects your ability to enter higher education and your ability to get insurance.

[edit on 5-4-2005 by Esoterica]

Originally posted by Esoterica
*snipped pseudointellectual bull# translated roughly as "I can't prove a damn thing, and it's your fault for not taking my word"*

If that's the way your'e going to give an argument, you shouldn't be posting at all.

Let's use your logic. Scientists don't know everything in the universe. Which means they don't know about the invisible elves that hold me down to the Earth. If they ever left, I'd go hurtling off into space.

You're taking something that science doesn't about, and applying it to something it does know about. It's just a stupid attempt at ridicule, without the intention to understand what I was talking about. In my language we call it "Bril di Palo".

Hey, aren't you the Radionics guy? Yes, you are. That explains a couple things.

Doesn't explain nada, zilch, nothing. Do I have nothing to say in this subject because of my interest in radionics? Open your eyes Esoterica.

If I met a guy who said he could play soccer, but when he went out on the field he didn't even know which way the goal was, didn't know you could only use your feet, and tackeld the ref, then no I wouldn't believe a thing he said

You know that's not what I mean and your twisting it to try to prove your point. Somebody comes with an idea that is different to yours, you try to ridicule it. That is not a discussion, but crap that belongs in PTS.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
If that's the way your'e going to give an argument, you shouldn't be posting at all.

OK, I'll expand. You make (correct) statements that science doesn't understand everything in the universe. But then you go one and treat psi as a fact, complete with rules about subconscious belief affectign results and whatnot, when even the scientific endeavors into studying ESP don't have enough proof to make any sort of claim like that. So what it comes down to is you believe in ESP as a fact of life. The key word there is belief. You can't tell me I am factually wrong because I disagree with a *belief* of yours.

Also, look around these boards. It seems everyone and their brother has experienced some sort of paranormal episode. Way more than should be. It also seems many of them are

a. Goth/outcasts who obviously want something differrent about them.
b. Kids who don't understand statistical probability and coincidence
c. People who just want to believe

Whenever anyone posts something saying that they have ESP, the first replies are usually congratulatory ones. No one ever seems to question if the person is lying (not likely, no point to lying about something liek this) or mistaken. The motto fo the board is "Deny Ignorance", yet everyone here (on the paranormal board) takes ESP at face value because it reinforces their own belief systems due to a lack of sound scientific findings. Just because science hasn't explained everythign yet doesn't mean it never will, and the claim that "science doesn't know everything" actually has no bearing on creating beleifs based around nothing but personal claims by faceless people on the internet.

You're taking something that science doesn't about, and applying it to something it does know about. It's just a stupid attempt at ridicule, without the intention to understand what I was talking about. In my language we call it "Bril di Palo".

I fully understand what you meant. You're assuming that ESP exists, but science doesn't understand it. I'm trying to point out to you that it's entirely possible the reason that science doesn't understand ESP is because it may not exist. You're working off of the assumption that it exists, so every time science fails to provide evidecne for it (which, actually, it has, but not enough to make any sort of judgement), you can easily dismiss it. That's reinforcing ignorance, not denying it.

Asking for a small bit of reason to believe you isn't a sin.

Doesn't explain nada, zilch, nothing. Do I have nothing to say in this subject because of my interest in radionics? Open your eyes Esoterica.

Explaisn your ability to take any claims at face value because of, IMO, a personal ened to beleive in something *outside* or a reinforcement for your own beleifs. That, or you're jsut extremely gullible. Helps me know what your standards of evidence are, which are apparently believing whatever someone psots on the internet.

You know that's not what I mean and your twisting it to try to prove your point. Somebody comes with an idea that is different to yours, you try to ridicule it.

No, I perfectly understood what you mean. I don't think you understand what you mean. Even someone who has never played soccer before can still run, kick a ball, etc... It's jsut different levels of practice and skill. And many other activities involvign running and kicking a ball, all soccer is is a different reason and set of rules on how to do it.

Clairvoyance, telepathy, remote viewing, etc... are NOT something the average person can do on their own, consciously. Maybe on accident, maybe randomly. But there are no other activities that invovle mind-expanding powers, seeing into the future, travelling through the astral plane, etc... It's totally alien to the majority of people. So the proper analogy would be someone claiming to know hwo to play soccer, but then going out on the field and HAVING ABSOLUTELY NOT CLUE WHATSOEVER what to do, to the point that he picks up the ball and tries to eat it. THAT is what someone claiming to have ESP and failing is like. It's not getting stage fright.

You see, you've managed to create a self-fulfilling belief. You beleive ESP exists outside of science. So when science fails to prove it, you're OK. You also believe ESP is very sensitive to the beleifs of others, so skeptics will never see it. You also believe that it's very personal, so when you fail to demonstrate your pwoers, you have an excuse that you "aren't in the right conditions". You have left absolutely no aveneue open for your beliefs to be shown to be wrong. Which means that any attempt to actually debate the pros and cons fo your beleif, ar,e well, you said it, not me-

That is not a discussion,

It's not, it's keeping your beliefs safe from the outside world.

Esoterica,

I didn't mention what I have done before, I don't even have to assume that ESP exists, because I have experienced it first hand. Including radionics I have used radionics programs and I have orgone generators. So it's no question for me at all.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
I didn't mention what I have done before,

Yes you did, you said you have expertienced OOBE's, but due to mitigating factors you cannot demonstrate it to anybody.

I don't even have to assume that ESP exists, because I have experienced it first hand.

You've experiences what you thibk is ESP. But sicne you haven't (in fact, have stated you will not) tried to demonstrate this to anybody, let alone a clinical session where someone could validate date as genuine ESP or as a purely mental acitivity (heck, just deomonstrating there is no mental explanation for what happened), you're simply believing. There should be a question as to what happened to you, why you aren't asking them and looking for answer is beyond me. If I genuinely thought I had some sort of supernatural abiltiy, I would at least try to show it to someone else so I would have some evidecne it wasn't all in my head.

Including radionics I have used radionics programs and I have orgone generators. So it's no question for me at all.

Orgone Accumulators Explained
Note that even believers in Reich's work cannot reproduce his results in any meaningful way.

As for Radionics... placebo effect.

I mean, I would love for this stuff to be true, but I still need a reason to that isn't clouded by my own perception. That IONS thing you posted is fun, though, go to that.

I wouldn't recommend lying to the therapist. They are trained to eek out the truth by more than what you say to them (i.e., they can read body language quite well). Also, lying, to some, is a sign of a serious problem. So that route could lead to bad diagnoses. I would say go with the truth, hold onto anything that would make you too uncomfortable to reveal. Many people believe in psi powers and are not labeled as crazy, even though mainstream science does not recognize psi as a legitimate study (This is slowly changing. More and more studies are conducted on it each year).

I believe in God, and to me, that is more 'crazy' than believing in psi in today's modern and scientific world (yes, I also believe in psi).

Originally posted by Esoterica

As for Radionics... placebo effect.

Placebo effect: In essence, a form of psi. Whether radionics is legit, I claim not to know, lol.

In texas, to get a state law enforcement comission, you have to be approved by a "psychiatrist." The state uses doctors from . . . the state prison system!

Why does a shrink, who can usually charge 150 ~ 500 per hour, agree to work for the state, checking inmates and cops? because he is incompetent to treat adults, or has a "bad" mark in his AMA/TMA file, and is doing public service to fix it.

Likewise, shrinks who work on juvies do so because their work is less liable to be questioned, since frightened parents will pay without asking a lot of questions. "Thank God we found you, Doctor! You say junior just needs ritalin? Thank God!"

Anyway, to get an officer's commission in TX, you take the MMPI, which if you don't know, was a test developed in WWII to sort out the "bad" soldiers. It has several categories, including one about religious beliefs. In my first go round, I filled it out honestly. One question was, "I believe that many people will end up in hell." Which I, personally believe to be a true statement. The shrink branded me for special "attention" because, he said, I had checked ANY of the religion scale.

So this flunkie skull-farmer was about to end my law-enforcement career before it even started; and all because of one of my responses to a 30-year-old multiple choice test.

So I was brought in for "discussion," at which he asked me extremely private questions (sex habits and bowel function included), and wrote every answer in my permanent file.

Now, talk to me again about why lying to mental health professionals is not in someone's best interest.

Originally posted by daboga75
Placebo effect: In essence, a form of psi.

What the...

God, everything is paranormal around here

dr_strangecraft
Obviously, you don't like shrinks because of a bad experience you have. This naturally skews your opinion to all dhrinks being as bad as that guy.

Well, first of all, unless your shrink amde the test and rules, all he was doing was what the government wanted, which was looking into anyone that marked on the religious scale. If it was just a clerk giving the exam, he would have done the same thing.

Second, there is a world of difference between a multiple choice test and saying you have ESP. The shrink is probably going to ask why he thinks he does, and look for a mundane explanation to it.

Your personal dislike of your srink during your tenure in the military means that you aren't a very good source of unbiased information regarding them.

Now, to talk to you about why he shouldn't lie, I need to point out how your experience and his are different. Namely, that he has already made the claim that he has supernatural power. You did not. The doctor is going to know hes lying about it, and it's just going to cause more trouble.