"Bad Intelligence" - "Americans, it would seem, are the ideal audience for propagandists..."

Uh, to those who hate iran for what they do, Saudi Arabia is worse, faaar worse, so how about we attack the country that attacked us on 9/11 instead of the two countries that had nothing to do with it.(Iraq and Iran, 9/11 Commission found nothing linking them to OBL, and the fact OBL and Saddam hated each other,Bush never seems to tell the people that)

I agree Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and I disagree with our being there. But it is well known fact, no propaganda whatsoever, that Iran's fundamental leaders have initiated attacks against us several times, long before 9/11. The Iranian leaders' feelings toward America, long before Bush, have been very clear. I don't want anymore nuclear weapons lying around on earth, especially not in the hands of a government that openly calls for the destruction of the U.S. and Israel when it is in session. It's not the Iranian people with nukes, but the extreme religious fundamentalists in charge with nukes that I'm concerned about. As for Saudi Arabia, they at least try and make it seem as though they don't hate us, and to my knowledge they aren't pursuing nuclear weapons or openly supporting terrorists, I don't believe the Saudi government had any hand in 9/11. And finally, just because I don't trust Iran's leaders, doesn't mean I have anything against the Iranian people or support any invasion or attacks on Iranian cities.

Originally posted by 27jd

Originally posted by xmotex
So we need to bomb them now, because they supported terrorist attacks on US forces in Lebanon twenty years ago?

Makes perfect sense to me

Yeah, that's exactly what I said, we need to bomb them, the entire country.

I think we may need to take out their nuclear capabilities if they continue to pursue nuclear weapons, because their GOVERNMENT, not the people, still support terrorism, and if given the chance, the men shouting "Death to America" , not 20 years ago, but now, in what should be a professional governing body, I believe would not hesitate to provide the tools to try and make their wishes reality. I do not wish any harm on the people of Iran, who are as nice as anybody.

First of all, I repeat again - The Iranian parliament has not chanted "Death to America" - At least not in the last 15 years. It is possible that such chants were heard in the parliament in the first decade after the revolution. But so what? We are a sovereign country and are free to chant death to america and spit on and burn your flag if we wish to - Who the heck are you to deny us that? Your government has no proof that the Iranian regime ordered any attacks on American barracks in Lebanon in early 1980's. Just because Iran supports Hezbollah and Hamas in Lebanon does not mean that Iran ordered their attacks against the U.S. Furthermore, if you were a little familiar with Iranian politics you would know that there were non-governmental organizations and figures in Iran who acted on their own in some anti-American activities. And please do not say "anti-Western", because Iran and the Iranian regime does not have an issue with the West, but with the U.S. authorities.

I repeat again and again - THE U.S.A. IS NOBODY TO TELL IRAN OR ANYONE ELSE THAT IT CAN PURSUE A NUCLEAR PROGRAM OR NOT! THE U.S.A. MUST BE TAUGHT THIS LESSON THE HARD WAY IF NECESSARY SO THAT IT CEASES TO BE SO DAMN COCKY. Iran will pursue its nuclear programme and Iran is prepared to engage in a war against the U.S. and Israel. Iran is prepared to sacrifice MILLIONS of its people in order to stand up for its rights against the U.S. Iranians are not new to the concept of sacrificing their lives for their country against agressors. Look at the Iran-Iraq war! If the U.S. does not want people to chant "death to America" then it has to reverse its policies around the world. People do not hate the U.S. without reason. A good start would be for the U.S. to witdraw from the Middle East, Central Asia and Caucasus. The U.S. has troops in nearly all the countries of this region. The U.S. has no business their! The energy resources of the region belongs to the sovereing countries of that region, not to the U.S.

I believe Iran is just playing the definate child who is defying her father or mother in going ahead with something there parent told them not to do. Sooner or later Iran will realize that it made a mistake and will wish with all its might that it could take it back but by then it will be to late.

I have a Bad feeling that this Overgrown Monkey that we call "Humanity" just might end up Pushing the Big Red Button with the word "Nuke" on it - I just hope that it is not too Painful when the ENTIRE WORLD Explodes - because all it takes is ONE Nuke to go off - the rest will probably go off then too!

Silly Monkeys - what ever happened to your Sanity? Can't we all just get Along? Squash the Hate YO! Lets all Smoke a Bong - then we will all get Along (hey that Rhymed)!

[edit on 30-4-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by 27jd
I agree Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and I disagree with our being there. But it is well known fact, no propaganda whatsoever, that Iran's fundamental leaders have initiated attacks against us several times, long before 9/11. The Iranian leaders' feelings toward America, long before Bush, have been very clear. I don't want anymore nuclear weapons lying around on earth, especially not in the hands of a government that openly calls for the destruction of the U.S. and Israel when it is in session. It's not the Iranian people with nukes, but the extreme religious fundamentalists in charge with nukes that I'm concerned about. As for Saudi Arabia, they at least try and make it seem as though they don't hate us, and to my knowledge they aren't pursuing nuclear weapons or openly supporting terrorists, I don't believe the Saudi government had any hand in 9/11. And finally, just because I don't trust Iran's leaders, doesn't mean I have anything against the Iranian people or support any invasion or attacks on Iranian cities.

You keep saying that it is a "fact" that Iran has initiated several attacks against the U.S. - Do you have any REFERENCES to any such "facts"? These are not facts, but allegations by some U.S. sources. There is a BIG difference between ALLEGATIONS and FACTS! Iran has an allegation against the U.S. accusing it of intentionally firing a missile against an Iran Air flight over the Persian Gulf which killed more than 200 innocent Iranians - But we do not have any PROOF for our allegation, so therefore it cannot be considered a FACT that the U.S. purposefully downed a civilian Iranian plane.

Yes, the Iranian leaders feelings towards the U.S. is clear, but you speak of it as if it would be a crime for anyone to oppose the U.S. The U.S. is guilty of having committed numerous acts in the world which causes it to deserve opposition from other countries and its own citizens of conscience. Look at the U.S. role in Iran: It staged a coup against the popular premier Mossadeq and installed a repressive regime. When the Shah in latter years was annoyed over U.S. attempts to control him and Iran, and he started to act boldly against the U.S., the U.S. decided to get rid of him. The U.S. sent General Huyser of NATO to Tehran in the early days of the revolution - And while it is the protocol of every country to report the arrival of such a high ranking official to another country, the U.S. tried to keep his mission to Iran secret. Iranian intelligence agents knew of Huyser's arrival though and found him meeting with all the figures of the revolutionary forces againt the Shah. This is how the U.S. treated the King who had been their friend for 37 years! The U.S. together with the British also forced Reza Shah, the father of the late Shah, referred to as the father of modern Iran to abdicate in favor of his son. Reza Shah was arrested and shipped to a South African island where he was kept in house arrest until he a few years later died....of grief it is believed. His crime? His friendly relations to Nazi Germany and his opposition to British colonialism. Never mind that he had declared Iran a neutral country. There are so many other reasons to why Iran has legitimate rights to stand in opposition to the U.S.

As for Saudi Arabia, they at least try and make it seem as though they don't hate us, and to my knowledge they aren't pursuing nuclear weapons or openly supporting terrorists

Listen, hating someone is not a crime! Iran is not breaking any international laws by hating the U.S. -- So you have no right to use Iran's "hate" towards the U.S. as a pretext to bomb or invade that country. If some people in Iran hate the U.S. it is not without reason - The U.S. has done some pretty bad things in Iran and around the world which has caused them to hate the U.S. government. (It's not about hating the American people)

Now as for Saudi Arabia: You would be surprised to find out that in fact the Saudis hate you much, much more than some Iranian leaders do! They just do not show it because they have a dependency relation with the U.S. And as for Saudi Arabia and terrorism you couldn't be more wrong! The whole source of Bin Laden's and the Taliban's faith is the Saudi Arabian radical, reactionary, fanatic and extremist "WAHABI SECT" The same sect which the house of Saud follows! Saudi Arabia has been funding the terrorist activites of Bin Laden and the Talibans - and this is no secret. That's why the U.S. after 9/11 insisted on that the Saudis implement strict regulations so that no money will be sent to the terrorists anymore. But I'm positive that the Saudis are supporting the insurgents in Iraq. Yet even there the U.S. tries to blame Iran. Whisch so farfetched as it can ever be since Iranians are Shia and the insurgents are Sunni and mostly follower of Saddam Hussein. These Sunnis and pro-Saddam groups are the NUMBER ONE enemies of the Shias and of Iran! So you try to make sense of that.

The fact is that Iran has not been involved in any terrorist attacks against the U.S. -- Saudi Arabia has. Iran supports Hamas and Hezbollah's struggle against the Israeli occupation - But that is not enough to label Iran as a terrorist state. In the eyes of many the Hezbollah and Hamas are not terrorists as much as they are a legitimate guerilla force fighting Israeli occupation.

The U.S. needs to focus on Al Qaida and Bin Laden since they are the ones who have committed one terrorist act after another against U.S. targets - Iran and Iraq had NOTHING to do with any of these terrorist acts! Yet the U.S. is targeting Iran and Iraq and Bin Laden is still loose and one hears little about Al Qaida these days......

If you want to know what real Islamic extremism is, then you have to study the faith of many Saudis, including the house of Saud, and that is the Wahabi sect! In Saudi Arabia women cannot vote, drive a car, work. They're covered from head to toe. The Saudis do not have a democratic parliament. This is extremism, and the breeding ground for anti-American extremism. ALMOST ALL OF THE HIJACKERS OF THE PLANES THAT CRASHED INTO THE WTC WERE SAUDI NATIONALS! So I don't know how you can have the guts to sit here and say that Iran is responsible for terrorist acts against the U.S. and that the Saudis are not........

Iran is just to smart I guess you could say to get other people to do there dirty work for them, either that or they just don't have what it takes to do it themselves. They show this by openling supporting terrorist organizations, with funding, weapons, training, and a place of sanctuary. Can you deny these FACTS.

Originally posted by xmotex
Unfortunately you can't just bomb a government without taking out some civilians too, no matter how accruate JDAM's might be.

Any airstrike is likely to ignite a larger conflict, I doubt the Iranians ar just going to sit back and absorb the strikes without retaliating in some way, probably against US forces in the Persian Gulf and/or Iraq.

Any preemptive strike is also likely to unite the Iranians behind their government, not a good thing if we want to encourage reformers there.

Frankly, I think the Iranians are likely to get their nukes, the program is spread all over Iran, knocking it out in a single blow like Osirak is not going to work. I don't think there is much the US can do about it, not without making things considerably worse than they already are.

Furthermore, many of the most important Iranian nuclear facilities are located very deep under ground, where no bunker bombs can reach.



President Khatami on his way to inspect an underground Iranian nuclear facility.




Iran's military response capabilities should not be under estimated. Iran is fully capable of attacking U.S. targets throughout the vast region including the Middle East, Caucasus and Central Asia. Iran produces its own unique mini-subs and also its own subs and with the mini-subs it can undetected reach U.S. ships anywhere in the Persian gulf and launch a sudden surprise attack. Iran also has an immense influence in the whole region, and in particular in Iraq and Afghanistan, but also throughout Africa, Central Asia and the Middle East, and can wreck havoc for the U.S. in these areas and beyond. Iran's armed forces number 7 million basiij and pasdaran troops in addition to the 850,000 regular armed forces.



Model of larger Iranian made submarines





















Iranian Pasdaran forces












Iranian made high-tech tanks

Ok so I guess you don't know one thing about the military or military equipment, because just like the Russians, we(the UNITED STATES) have made bunker busters, and some bombs which will do down the equivalent of a 7 stories down before exploding. And the high tech tanks that your talking about are nothing except T-72 with defletion devices on them I don't remember the name but all they do is when a missile hits it they bounce off and if you hit it more than once in the same spot its done, missile 1 tank 0.

Originally posted by demosthenes
Ok so I guess you don't know one thing about the military or military equipment, because just like the Russians, we(the UNITED STATES) have made bunker busters, and some bombs which will do down the equivalent of a 7 stories down before exploding.

And don't forget that an underground bunker is only as effective as it's entrance/exit points and air supply systems. Take them out and let them suffocate.

The time it takes those "high tech tanks" to reload, on that pos auto-system..

itll be a pile molten metal..





[edit on 30-4-2005 by C0le]

Let them Burn. Burn Baby Burn.

Give me a platoon of Marines supported by a 2 .50cal teams, and 2 tow teams with a detachment of Javelins, and we can take out a whole battalion of the Pasdaran Forces supported by a few tanks. Marines 1000 Pasdaran 0. Sorry Iran you lose.

Siroos,
If Iran is such a peace loving country, why do they continue to put mines in the Pesian Gulf to destroy oil tankers? Why do they support terrorism against other nations?

Before you go talking about the airliner-USS Vincennes incident again, you need to do some research and learn what really happened in that incident, not just what your government has told you. The Vincennes was attacked by several Iranian patrol boats. As it was in the middle of the engagement, a plane from Iran suddenly left the civillian air lanes and flew toward the Vincennes. It's IFF was turned off and the pilot would not answer any attempts at radio contact. It started to decend directly at the Vincennes so the ship fired. The crew did the right thing.

Answer me this... Is it a custom in Iran for every passenger aboard an airliner to travel completely naked? That's what happened on that airliner. Every single body pulled from the water was completely naked. Did the SM-2 blow the clothes off everybody when it struck the aircraft, or were the passengers dead BEFORE the plane took off?

Originally posted by PeanutButterJellyTime
Siroos,
If you believe this 'news' you posted you have just proved to the world that Iranians, it would seem, are the ideal audience for propagandists.

Check out the bottom of the article:

About the author:
Arash Norouzi is an artist, cat (gorbeh) lover and co-founder of The Mossadegh Project.

Now check out the link about the Mossadegh Project:

In 1953, he was overthrown by a U.S. funded CIA coup, arrested and tried as a traitor in military tribunal court. It was America's first successful dismantling of a foreign government, and Iran has not known democracy since.

Now tell me the author is sincere and is not spreading anti-US propaganda.

What I posted is no "news" - It's an article. And it's NOT propaganda - It is the TRUTH. The CIA report on the so called "Operation Ajax" in Iran was released on the 50th anniversary of the coup - So it's no secret. But since it seems obvious that you do not even know that this happened and that the U.S. was the instigator of the coup, it would be more realistic to conclude that YOU are the victim of your own governments false propaganda. Do you think it was right of the U.S. to stage a coup in Iran against a democratically elected Prime Minister? Do you think it was right of the U.S. to want to install a repressive government in place of the democratically elected one? I'm constantly being stunned at the way some Americans reason and think...

Originally posted by demosthenes
I believe Iran is just playing the definate child who is defying her father or mother in going ahead with something there parent told them not to do. Sooner or later Iran will realize that it made a mistake and will wish with all its might that it could take it back but by then it will be to late.

The thing is that Iran has not made any mistake - Iran is minding its business and following international laws in regards to its nuclear programme. It's the U.S. and Israel who as usual are not minding their own business, so it's the U.S. and Israel who are committing a BIG mistake and who will have to regret it sooner or later.

Before you go talking about the airliner-USS Vincennes incident again, you need to do some research and learn what really happened in that incident, not just what your government has told you.

I could say the same to you...

Actually, the captain of the other ship in the Vincennes incident (the Perry class FFG USS Sides) is on record as saying that the Vincennes' captain violated his ROE, and ignored warnings that what he was targeting might be a civilian airliner. Also the airliner was following it's normal flight plan, the Aegis system (an early version with plenty of bugs) misidentified the aircraft as an F-14 and showed it to be descending when it was actually ascending.

Vincennes was not attacked by the gunboats (what idiot is going to attack an Aegis CG with a puny little gunboat?!?), but attacked the gunboats after a dubious report that they were firing on one of it's helicopters - which was well out of the gunboats' weapons range at the time.

More data here: Vincennes: A Case Study
Before you dis it as Anti-American "propaganda", note that the account was compiled by a US Marine Lt. Colonel for a Naval ROTC class.

A bit about the transponders:

The information on the transponder emissions is unambiguous, however. According to Admiral Fogarty's report of investigation, "The data from USS Vincennes' tapes, information from USS Sides and reliable intelligence information corroborate the fact that TN 4131 was on a normal commercial air flight plan profile ... squawking Mode 111 6760, on a continuous ascent in altitude from take-off at Bandar Abbas to shoot down."

And FYI, when your airliner breaks up in midair at 500mph + and you are tossed out into the airstream, your clothes are unlikely to stay on. Not to mention your limbs.

[edit on 30-4-2005 by xmotex]

Originally posted by demosthenes
Ok so I guess you don't know one thing about the military or military equipment, because just like the Russians, we(the UNITED STATES) have made bunker busters, and some bombs which will do down the equivalent of a 7 stories down before exploding. And the high tech tanks that your talking about are nothing except T-72 with defletion devices on them I don't remember the name but all they do is when a missile hits it they bounce off and if you hit it more than once in the same spot its done, missile 1 tank 0.

The bunker bombs will do you no good - Iranians are a lot smarter than you could ever imagine. Iran knows about the capabilites of U.S. bunker bombs, and thus have built their underground facilities deep enough to not take a hit.


The most recent T-72 is the 'S' version. The T-72S MBT weighs 44.5 tonnes and is armed with the latest stabilized 125mm smoothbore 2A46M gun, IA40-1 computerised fire-control system (FCS) with laser rangefinder and day/image intensification night sighting system. As well as firing the normal types of 125mm separate-loading ammunition (projectile and charge), the T-72S can also fire a Svir 9M119 (NATO designation AT-11 'Sniper') laser beam-riding guided projectile to a range of 4,000m. The T-72S is powered by the V-84MS diesel engine, which develops 840hp and, with a combat weight of 44.5 tonnes, a power-to-weight ratio of 18.87hp/tonne is obtained. For greater cross-country mobility, the suspension has also been upgraded and mine protection improved.

T-72Z An upgrade has been developed in Iran called the Type 72Z in order to extend the operational life of the T-54/T-55 MBTs, and the similar Chinese Type 59 equivalent used by Iran, all of which are armed with a 100mm gun.

Last year, the Shahid Kolah Dooz Industrial Complex revealed it had developed a new ERA package that can be rapidly fixed to the T-54/ T-55, T-72 and other MBTs to improve battlefield survivability against chemical energy (CE) and kinetic energy (KE) attack. This Iranian ERA package is similar to that being made and marketed by Russia and has been installed on Russian MBTs, such as the T-80BV, for some years. The Iranian ERA armour system comprises one composite layer. This protects against KE and CE projectiles and an extra energetic material that provides protection against KE attack. Iranian sources said this system can be dropped from a height of 5m; will not be activated from small arms fire up to 30mm in calibre or grenades; and is resistant to napalm type weapons.

Originally posted by demosthenes
Iran is just to smart I guess you could say to get other people to do there dirty work for them, either that or they just don't have what it takes to do it themselves. They show this by openling supporting terrorist organizations, with funding, weapons, training, and a place of sanctuary. Can you deny these FACTS.

The U.S. also has supported and is supporting terrorist groups. Right now it's cooperating with an Iranian anti-regime terrorist group which in the past has killed several Americans - The MEK, Mojahedin-e Khalq Organization - A very radical marxist organization. The U.S. also supported the contras against the Sandinista regime which came to power trhough a popular revolution. THE U.S. HAS ASSASSINATED MANY WORLD LEADERS AND POLITICAL FIGURES, AND ATTEMPTED TO ASSASSINATE MANY MORE - ISN'T THAT A SORT OF TERRORISM?

Iran supports Hezbollah and Hamas. It may be funding them too. So what? Are we going to conclude that the U.S. is responsible of torture because it supports countries where there are repressive regimes who use torture against dissidents, such as in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Chile (During Allende) Argentia (During the Junta) Iran (During the Shah's time) and many many other countries. What's the difference? Iran supports Hezbollah and Hamas - U.S. supports repressive regimes. If Iran should be held responsible for terror attacks committed by Hezbollah and Hamas, then U.S. should be held responsible for torture and other human rights violations committed by the countries which the U.S. supports.

Originally posted by C0le
The time it takes those "high tech tanks" to reload, on that pos auto-system..

itll be a pile molten metal..





[edit on 30-4-2005 by C0le]

Iran does not only have T-72 tanks. The U.S. will be afflicted with such heavy damages and casualties that it will loose the war big time, and face economic ruin as well. You have been brianwashed by your propaganda machine with its "High tech weaponry shows" in Iraq. You forget that Iraq's military was devastated by an 8 year long war at the time when the U.S. devastated it even further in 1990-91. (The Persian Gulf war) Then Iraq faced 11 years of sanctions which prevented it to rebuild its military. So when the U.S. attacked Iraq for a second time with its pathetic "Shock and awe" (:@@ Iraq had one of the weakest military powers in the world, and yet it took a whole month for the U.S. to reach Baghdad, and yet the war is continuing til this day! Do you seriously think that the U.S. with such poor performance can dismantle Iran's nearly 8 million man strong military might. Don't forget that Iranians are the fiercest nationalists I've ever seen in this world - Iranians will literally tare apart your American soldiers with their hands if they dare to place even one toe on Iranian territories. You're too arrogant about your "military might" - yet you have so far never faced anything but small and weak nations. I guess you do that to boost your egos.