Equal rights for women doesn't seem to be working.

OK, I know this is going to be a bad topic for some. I think this subject is avoided due to its nature. I will probably receive a lot of negative input, but I think it is something important. I know many men think about this, but to talk about it only means suicide.

Our government gave women equal rights many decades ago. Now don't get me wrong, I think women are just as important as men in this world, but I think that this was either a mistake, or a way to improve America's economy. Before they received equal rights, there was very little divorce and very little marriage counseling. Since then, divorce is WAY up, counseling is WAY up, visits to the shrink are WAY up and our children are growing up with pain and the thought that marriage is not permanent.

My Grandfather often said "You can't have two kings in one castle." This is what we have today. In my research on marriage today, one of the main things you see in most bad marriages is that the woman will not compromise. They want thing to be a certain way, they want their husband to change certain habits. A common complaint that men say is that the wife will not change herself - "Why should I change/do all these things while she changes/does nothing?" In many others, the man cheats, but says the wife withheld sex from him. What shows in some studies is that women don't like to compromise. They want things a certain way, not understanding that men also want things a certain way.

I recently had a discussion with a counselor, and she said that she has seen MANY times, the man do much of what the woman wanted, but the woman does NOTHING that the man wanted. She said she see's the woman being most of today’s problems in marriage because women feel that they don't have to do anything anymore because "men don't rule me anymore."

You see the jokes all the time about how the women rule men. Jokes are based on a truth.

With the way things are today, lawyers are making good money on divorce. Psychiatrists are making good money with the pains of divorce with the parents and the children. Drug companies are making out with depression medicine. Child support is making men get second jobs. All these help the economy.

I personally think this goes to show that Gods plan for men to be the head of the household works well. I have met many happy elderly couples that live by it. We all see other countries where the man is the head, and if you look, divorce is VERY rare and the women - for the most part - are happy.

In the above, I am not talking about everyone. I am talking about averages and what is in most circumstances. I am not a chauvinist and I do not think women are less than men. I am merely stating what others seem to avoid talking about for obvious reasons. In countries where women are equal in authority, there is much divorce and children in broken homes.

I know some women will read this and say things like "No man will tell me what to do". However, those are the same ones who may be divorced. To common it is for women to say they will not listen to a man, but they forget that they are not listening - to be heard, one must learn to listen. It is supposed to be a 2 way street.

Ok, don't hurt me too bad. Forgive me if I anger anyone. Please at least try to make this an intelligent debate.

I know most women will disagree with me, but before you bash me - look at the past and look at other countries where divorce is very low. Make sure that the reason you disagree is not because someone is stating that the wife is second in command, or number 2 - that might be pride. I have said that the wife is just as important as the man in a family unit. You just can't have 2 kings in 1 castle - look at the last 50 years.

In the event that I die as a result of this thread, please give my sig to the woman that killed me.


[edit on 26-4-2005 by godservant]

I failed to mention, I mean this only in the family unit, not in the work place. There are areas where women are better than men in the work place.

I think it has to do more with the ability of a no-fault divorce. There is no reason to attempt to make a comprimise since today's consumer society is so selfish.

Not to metion women claim to not to be able to make the same as men, yet they don't do the same high risk/dirty jobs men do (Mining, waste managment, construction)

Just because the man is the head of the household, does not make the woman a slave. The wife SUPPORTs the husband, and makes him better, and in turn the Husband divides the reward.

Well marriage is mutual agreement between two persons that love each other, or that is what society tell you.

The problem with marriage is base in many things like, unwillingness to comprimise, no wanting to share responsibilities, problems when the main bread winner is the woman, and religious believes play a big role.

I see more ignorance in today's divorces and immaturity than anything else.

I am a veteran, has been marry for 24 years to my one and only love. My parents has been marry to each other for 45 years, and my husband parents has been together for 53.

We all together.

I have the say so in the house as much as my husband, he works, I run the check book.

Does he feel intimidated? No we understand our responsibilities and we have a very happy home.

We are not religious, we do not go to church, we have raised two kids on the base of "for everything you do wrong is a price to pay" and has work fine for us.

Sometimes is the strong home and the strong marriage what keep a family together.

My sister is raising her sons by herself, she is divorce and so one of my brothers.

I always believe that before you take the responsibility of getting into a relationship you should be aware that it comes with a price and a compromised.

Another thing comunication, is very important, not screaming or fighting but sitting down and talk about what is bothering you or your partner.

My husband and I are never too tired to sit down and talk, and our children listen too, so they know what is going on.

A happy family, a good home and well behave children is not so hard to achieve is a combine effort.

Originally posted by Jehosephat

Just because the man is the head of the household, does not make the woman a slave.

I don't think the woman should be a slave. I know this does happen in some families, but I am talking about most though. I work with MANY from India and like countries and MOST of the wives are very happy. Simply put - it works. They have almost 0 divorce.

Marriage is a partnership. Both must compromise, both must make sacrifices from time to time. Both have strengths and weaknesses. The he-said/she-said mentality and treating men and women as adversaries won't help iron out problems. You can, and must have not 2 kings, but a ruling council of 2. You can bet than in past King and Queen relationships, they EACH had power in their own respective ways...

It all depends on what the man wants from a woman.

Does he wanted a partner? A friend? A cook? A squeeze?

Women are the same. It depends on what they want.

I am no expert by any means. I'm on my 3rd marriage.

I do have a little 'experience' though. (good or bad)

That counselor (in th opening post) is screwy and needs to see a counselor. My current wife and I strive to each others friend- best friend. We disagree a lot. We took a compatibility test and rated < 1% compatible. Less than 1%.

Now that might sound like an unworkable situation to many, but its not. Every day each of us gets to learn something from the other. We are so very different we never get bored with each other.

I've known a lot of married couples that drift into different lives while sharing the same house. These people are compatible and yet don't even 'like' each other.

If your wife is not the person you most like to 'hang' with then guys like I was many, many years ago will gladly make her feel wanted.

*add what Gaz said:
The Queen and King of Spain worked together and built an empire!

[edit on 26-4-2005 by JoeDoaks]

Originally posted by Gazrok
Marriage is a partnership. Both must compromise, both must make sacrifices from time to time. Both have strengths and weaknesses. The he-said/she-said mentality and treating men and women as adversaries won't help iron out problems. You can, and must have not 2 kings, but a ruling council of 2. You can bet than in past King and Queen relationships, they EACH had power in their own respective ways...

That sounds good on paper and is very logical. Would be great if it worked. However, it isn't. When the two have a disagreement, it should be known that one of them is to make the final decision. Both want to do this now that it has been accepted that women have the authority in a family unit. Today, the man wants his way and the woman wants her way and both ways differ. Who is to make that final decision?

so, you want 100% default laid onto the wife, whenever they don't agree....that her position be so weak it has as little merit as the husband wishes it to have.

But.....women want everything their way.

That sounds good on paper and is very logical. Would be great if it worked. However, it isn't. When the two have a disagreement, it should be known that one of them is to make the final decision. Both want to do this now that it has been accepted that women have the authority in a family unit. Today, the man wants his way and the woman wants her way and both ways differ. Who is to make that final decision?

You make it TOGETHER. Yes, it sounds good on paper. It's even better in practice...as my wife and I have learned. Sometime's she's right, sometimes (less often, hehe...) I am. Sometimes neither of us are right, or both of us, and then we have to decide from there. One thing is certain... As long as you are fighting about it....nothing gets decided one way or the other...

Gazrok, it sounds like your marriage is good and well done. It would be great if most were like yours, then we could say that equal rights within the family unit is good. If everyone thought as you and your wife did, all would be great - but its not.

Problem is, over half of marraiges in the US end. These numbers were no where NEAR this high a hundred years ago. These numbers are not seen in countries where the man is the head of the household.

Don't get me wrong, it would be nice to see it work - I wish it did. However, it did not work. Who suffers the most? The children.

Again, please don't misinterpret my words as being against women. I am not saying that women are less than men - no way. I know that women are better than men in many areas, and vice versa.

I ask this: What is the difference between countries with a high divorce rate and countries with a very low divorce rate?

Originally posted by godservant
Our government gave women equal rights many decades ago. Now don't get me wrong, I think women are just as important as men in this world, but I think that this was either a mistake, or a way to improve America's economy.

Let me list what women have gotten the freedom to do during MY lifetime, and tell me which were mistakes. Some are legal and some are societal:

* the right to file for rape if her husband rapes her.
* the right to file for legal redress if her husband beats her children
* the right to file for divorce if her husband is an adulterer
* the right to NOT be treated as a pariah/whore if she's divorced (yes, this really was the attitude back in the 1950's 1960's)
* the right to file for legal protection if her husband beats her
* the right to buy a car/house/boat/motorcycle/gun/truck/land without a man's permission.
* the right to drink at the same water fountain as a white man
* the right to not be forced to give up her seat on public transportation to any man.
* the right to divorce a man for emotional abuse
* the right to bring a lawsuit against a boss for sexual harrassment or rape
* the right to adopt a child
* the right to have a job as something OTHER than a teacher/nurse/housekeeper.
(there's more, but that will do.)

Before they received equal rights, there was very little divorce and very little marriage counseling.

And there was a higher rate of spouse murder by men. However (and this happened within my family) if the man murdered the woman, he would usually be let off with "justifiable homicide." All he had to say is "she was seeing another man." He didn't even have to produce that man.

There wasn't any marital counseling because the attitude was "you are a woman and society doesn't care WHAT he does to you; you take it." So, (this happened to my sister-in-law) when her husband turned out to be a physically and emotionally abusive alcoholic there was no divorce (well, she did, but her own family then regarded her as almost a prostitute) and there was no counseling. Society viewed HIS alcoholism as her "burden."

Since then, divorce is WAY up, counseling is WAY up, visits to the shrink are WAY up and our children are growing up with pain and the thought that marriage is not permanent.

If you want children in pain, you might want to consider what it does to the kids to see their mom locked in a marriage (with no escape) where the husband comes home and beats her and them... and there's no way she can leave and no legal remedies if he breaks her jaw (happened to someone I know) or holds her down and breaks her fingers one by one (true story. This sort of thing wasn't unknown in the 1960's and 1950's.)

My Grandfather often said "You can't have two kings in one castle." This is what we have today.

He was comfortable with "one adult in the household, one large and very old child (the wife) and a bunch of smaller children."

In my research on marriage today, one of the main things you see in most bad marriages is that the woman will not compromise.

But it's okay if the MAN doesn't want to compromise?

Uhm...yeah.

They want thing to be a certain way, they want their husband to change certain habits. A common complaint that men say is that the wife will not change herself

If you swap the roles there, you're describing a man who's a Bad Husband: "They want their WIFE to change certain habits. A common complaint that women have is that the husband will not change himself"

In fact, you're describing someone who (no matter what the gender or relationship) is not very pleasant to live with. Whether it's a roommate, a sibling, or whatever -- that's not "bad wife" it's "bad companion."

" In many others, the man cheats, but says the wife withheld sex from him.

So you're advocating that the guy can have lovers and concubines and the wife has to still put out?

Gee. I'm sure there are women just LINING up to have that kind of relationship.

With the way things are today, lawyers are making good money on divorce. Psychiatrists are making good money with the pains of divorce with the parents and the children. Drug companies are making out with depression medicine. Child support is making men get second jobs. All these help the economy.

I think it could be fixed pretty easily if movies and tvs started showing guys who were interested in long-term relationships; not in getting nookie. If they showed guys who were faithful and not sleeping their way around in a "heroic fashion."

I personally think this goes to show that Gods plan for men to be the head of the household works well.

I think you haven't studied any households where the spouses are equal. And you aren't familiar with the other cultures... I'd suggest you read more on women's studies and what life is like for the women in those countries where divorce is rare but I suspect you won't do it.

In the event that I die as a result of this thread, please give my sig to the woman that killed me.

Uhm... you think we're not clever enough to think of our own sigfiles?

Originally posted by godservant
Gazrok, it sounds like your marriage is good and well done. It would be great if most were like yours, then we could say that equal rights within the family unit is good. If everyone thought as you and your wife did, all would be great - but its not.

Problem is, over half of marraiges in the US end. These numbers were no where NEAR this high a hundred years ago. These numbers are not seen in countries where the man is the head of the household.

Don't get me wrong, it would be nice to see it work - I wish it did. However, it did not work. Who suffers the most? The children.

Again, please don't misinterpret my words as being against women. I am not saying that women are less than men - no way. I know that women are better than men in many areas, and vice versa.

I ask this: What is the difference between countries with a high divorce rate and countries with a very low divorce rate?

in those countries, where man is the head and divorce is low, what are the other options available for the women? Divorce is low in Saudi Arabia, and yet, are they happy.

it's like saying that since our politicians in washinton can't get along, lets just not let the dems vote.

there was little "divorce" between slave and master either.

[edit on 26-4-2005 by dawnstar]

Originally posted by godservant
That sounds good on paper and is very logical. Would be great if it worked. However, it isn't. When the two have a disagreement, it should be known that one of them is to make the final decision.

You think there's really only TWO ways to answer a problem?

The ones with successful partnerships negotiate and often find a third or fourth mutually agreeable option. If you're into the chest-thumping-one-will-prevail scenario then you're never going to find those other (and sometimes better) ways.

This kind of person is much better suited for a spouse who doesn't have much education and isn't terribly intelligent. The man won't get smart kids as a result, but he won't have any arguments about who has a better idea. I know some guys who have married some very dim women... and they're all very happy. There's something for everyone out there.

Byrd, you make some very good points. Most of what you said is true. I am not talking putting women back where they were. I am talking about what the laws and the media have done to make women think they are in charge in the family unit.

Look, I know there are abusive men and abusive women. I know there are unfairs and unbalances. I am talking about the big picture. WE HAVE OVER 50% DIVORCE! Why??? The only differnce I have found is the chain of command in the family unit.

Please don't come down on me like I am evil. Instead, give a different view on why there is such an EXTREME difference in divorce rates between the two types of cultures. This is only my opinion based on some research. I am not saying that I am right, and I am not saying that women are lessers. I am just looking for the 'why', and this is all I have found so far.

I also know that posting a subject like this is taboo to most and may make me some enemies. However, I think it is an important subject to talk about. I may form a different opinion by the end, but so far this is what I see.



[edit on 26-4-2005 by godservant]

My current b.f. is one of the smart ones.

Should we ever get married, he knows that if he were to ever get injured & found himself unable to work (god forbid), I'll be able to pick up the slack while he recovers. He knows the essential, survival value of equal opportunity.

Of course if it were to happen to him now, his parents would pick up the slack. But I'll still be there with some TLC.

Byrd,

maybe this will clue you in.....

the only way I have found to get the medical attention that I need is to separate myself from my husband, and his income....

My wife and I have a pretty old fashioned marriage but I would liken it more to President/Congress then Master/Slave. I have Veto power but she makes most of the rules.....lol

The buck has to stop somewhere and she is more impulsive then me. It has worked wonderfully for us but others might need another set up. My oldest Daughter "wears the pants" in her family and it works out fine for them. She does for the same reason I do because her husband is VERY impulsive and she has a lot more level head.


In a loving household this does not present a problem no matter WHO calls the final shot.

I think as someone else mentioned the problem lays in the fact that among the working poor it is better sometimes to be a single mother than a married one Financially.

what a great topic i agree with you completely

i am not a sexist; but i do think that modern commercialism on tv has caused most women to go crazy

it makes them feel ugly and fat allways *even if they are Underweight*

it makes them want expensive products to be "equal" to all the other women or "better"

they think make-up cosemetics are actually good *truth is cosmetics are for clowns
hehe

men who are controled by materialistic desires are one thing;
but a Woman who is controlled by materialistic desires are a NIGHTMARE

believe me i live with one lol

my family makes 14,000 $ a year; for Me,Mom, and Baby
thats 3 of us living very comfortably under 14k a yr

but my wife; she always wants "a new car" or "some jewelry" or "new cloths" or a billion other expensive worthless products.....

basically all i wanted in life was a loving wife who wouldnt care about silly materialistic gain, and we could spend our days togeather happy and fufilled

but Capitalism; oh the Beast ..lol
Capitalism has destroyed all of that

Now i get to worry about buying alot of worthless stuff for a brainwashed woman

Now i get to feel "worthless" and "useless" because i cannot afford ferraris and 20caret diamonds

the odds that i can make it rich in america are slim; the odds any of my buisness ideas would succeed are slim; due to massive competition from corporations who have already taken over the entire market; their monopolistic control mechanisms;
example : McDonalds can sell their burgers cheaper than my buisness ever could; because they buy their product in such huge quantitys they will always have better prices than i could ...

ya my burgers are Real and stuff; but they cost quite a bit more
McDonald burger = 1.25$
my Burger = 3.50$

thats why its so dang hard to make your own successful buisness in america
competition agianst super billionare earth conquoring corporation is HARD

if it were Easy, everyone would have done it
and none of us would know who McDonalds was ....

where am i going with this?

im going to the "Matieralism is bad" place

if only i could convince my wife that , as long as we are poor; she should not want expensive crap

if i ever do get rich; i will buy her all that stuff sure, but right now all i got is 7 dollars $$ in my name

actually im negative 150$ because the bank just murdered me...
oh well
thats life in america
we allways owe someone

and no matter how broke you become; theres always someone begging you to buy them something they dont need that you cant afford

someone shoot me
i prefer in my skull
please

......


PS::
back in the day when it was Kingdoms, serfs, knights ' you know those days
ye good ol dark ages lol
900AD to 1400AD (in that area, just a estimation)

well anyways back in the day

the King told everyone "I am KING, and you are my servants"

and all the poor people were happy being poor because they Knew they had NO CHANCE of ever becoming RICH or Powerful

but these days things are worse;
the King tells everyone nowdays
"You serfs, you can be rich Kings like me; if only you work really hard and be very smart"

now this is BS because Everyone thinks they can be rich one day maybe
and everyone is sad when they realize they cannot become rich

so basically this new BS stuff has made everyone sad and upset
because they told us "we could be like them if...."

its complete utter BS because not Everyone can be Rich
there isnt enough stuff for everyone to have more than everyone else

and if everyone has alot of stuff; we wont all be rich
we will all be communists in a way
wealthy communists...lol

i could go on about this forever but ill stop now
thanks for bearing with me

Originally posted by dawnstar
maybe this will clue you in.....

the only way I have found to get the medical attention that I need is to separate myself from my husband, and his income....

I am sorry to hear that. I truly hope that things turn out great in the end.

I understand that what I am saying may anger some and that is not my intent. I am talking about the over-all statistics and only in the family unit. Please understand, I am not trying degrade anyone here.


LOOK AT THIS:

In India, weather they have their spouse picked for them or they pick themselves, the woman marries and moves in with her husband who lives with his parents. Her father-in-law is the boss, and he is responsible for leading everyone in the house to ensure the bills are paid and food in storage. When he dies, his son is now in charge. The women in the house do infuence him, but he calls the final decision. There is no argueing here because everyone knows their place. Indian women do have jobs where they are in charge, but at home, they know the chain of command - Grandfather, Grandmother, Father, Wife, Son, Daughter. When Grandfather dies, the Father takes over the huosehold and continues to try and make the right choices so that the family can continue to survive. Divorces CAN happen and the woman would just go back home to her parents or live by herself, but they don't. I know many personally and they are happy. I have talked to some Indian Women and they say most are happy. In fact, they say the American family structure is just asking for trouble.

If people are in a situation where they think they can argue, then they will. If you remove that, then acceptance is the norm.

I like the way it was said "President/Congress". Thats more the way I think about it, not "Master/Slave".



[edit on 26-4-2005 by godservant]